No answer to Aamir`s comparisons

No answer to Aamir`s comparisons - Printable Version

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No answer to Aamir`s comparisons - khani - 05-07-2008

Where is every so called genious of ICAP.Give him the answer and give him due respect.

- kamranACA - 05-07-2008

Dear Khani,

First of all these comparisons have nothing to do when you talk in perspective of market demand for a given qualification. This is the most relevant thing which such ACCAs cannot understand since they are quite younger to have a thoughtful understanding.

Secondly, I disagree that quality of examination techniques of ACCAs is better. Students are given choices which makes much difference. Further, as discussed by Idrees Durrani, ACCA has been passing (partially or completely) its students in recent past just to increase global number of students/affiliates for which so much has been jeopardized.

I further disagree that papers of ACCA are better than ICAP. Yes these might have been drafted with different methodology. Such methodologies variate considerably from institute to institute. I never saw an ACCA who can independently prepare a financial model, valuation model or business plan etc (in real practical terms) after having such so-called in-depth (Non-Halwa) vigurous studies and after passing through so-called qualitative exams. Can you refer to me a single renowned firm set up by ACCAs so far in Pakistan which has such qualitative businesses.

Mind it nothing could be achieved just by making claims and getting engaged in purposeless un-ending discussions. If ACCAs want to have a competition, leave these childish comparisons and come up to face the ground facts and develop your-self to give a challenge to other professionals. You know in the capacity of being dependents on CAs, the claims and challenges made by ACCAs are just like the challenges of some of our leaders to USA and others like them. So, for being competitive get yourself upto the mark. This is the essense.

As far as personal respect is concerned, every member of the forum is respectable. However, right of negating or disagreeing other's viw point rests with every one.

You can totally disgaree with whatever I express on this forum.

Regards,

KAMRAN.

- Schuaeb - 05-10-2008

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by khani
 Where is every so called genious of ICAP.Give him the answer and give him due respect.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you think anythings in those post worth to be explained!!
His gibberish views are very well known to us all. I earlier thought that he will mature as he grow up, but to be honest, in my view point he somewhat has retarted rather that getting a bit matured. (I regret for being personal but sometimes the facts are like that)

- Muhammad Amir - 05-10-2008

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">His gibberish views are very well known to us all. I earlier thought that he will mature as he grow up, but to be honest, in my view point he somewhat has retarted rather that getting a bit matured. (I regret for being personal but sometimes the facts are like that)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Mr Shoaib,

As you are the most mature/sane/knowledgeable man on earth, why don't you talk to me on paper to paper basis. I am once again saying that ACCA's papers pattern is much better than ICAP. ACCA's papers are well equiped with the requirements of ever changing accountancy profession and the difference between both bodies is the same as that between A'Level and Intermediate and in O'Level and Metric.

ACCAs are asked to evaluate, synthesis, Illustrate, Assess, Construct, Formulate and Advise whereas, CAs are asked to define Marketing, give 4 examples, provide, and all clerikal types of workings and wordings. ACCAs are provided thousands of words scenario and they need to evaluate and sythesis those scenarios, whereas CAs are provided papers as they are still taking their intermediate exams.

CA papers are difficult to pass the reason behind this are.
1)ICAP Policies(No need to further explain).

2)Rote Learning Stuff and cram techniques(those who have good skills to cram are easily able to pass their exams).

So Mr shoaib(So called advocate of ICAP) I challenge you to talk me on paper to paper basis do not make baseless statements.

- kamranACA - 05-10-2008

Dear Amir,

It is not really hard to challenge you on paper to papare basis analysis. Don't let some one to fall in this game of no benefits. Some one irritated of your fake analysis will challenge you, you will institute a very long debate, and at the end, you will say you agree to bala bala things with an exception to that particular thing. And again that particular thing will only be revolving around your rigid thinking and nothing else.

The thing which I have ever been pointing out and which you need to analyse and know is the future of a student after completing a certain qualification. Of course the future of ACCAs in PAKISTAN as compared to CAs is not as much bright as you portray. If you feel in some areas ACCA is partially better (which I don't agree) even then the stuff like policies, paper settings, study texts, exemptions etc etc are not a sufficient reason to prove it better than CA. All over the world it is not better than CA or CPA. You know this fact.

We have so many times talked about pay scales, lesser demand for ACCAs, expertise of ACCAs as so-called "business planners", future in next 50 years, absence of oppurtunities for ACCA as a main charterholder for public practice any where in the world, key positions held by ACCAs in Pakistan, effectiveness of ACCA Pakistan Chapter, specific categories of students opting to do ACCA instead of CA and so on.

You know ACCA is not in competition at least in Pakistan. Outside Pakistan again CAs have more worth than ACCAs and hold more key positions than ACCAs. I also explained that even in UK, there are so many local ACCAs, as accounting profession is considered relatively easier than other professional fields. And due to this, the people who have done ACCA at Pakistan typically face difficulties in finding jobs at UK when they migrate.

After doing ACCA if some one does not get desired results (at Pakistan) and then he starts growling against ICAP policies, then it would be totally his own fault of making such decision. You must agree that people normally don't take ACCA as a focal qualification. Rather, they feel it a gate way to certain other qualifications. You can also see this very feeling largely on this forum. This shows what ACCA carries the importance as an isolated qualification. You cannot make it a base for your career in job simply. Rather you can use it as a base for your future in order to have further qualifications of other esteemed institutes. Therefore you can call it an intermediary qualification whereas CA is in itself an esteemed qualification and profession. Here lies the difference. CA is an esteemed qualification while ACCA could be a gate way to some esteemed qualification. You cannot make any comparison between the two. I know nothing can affect your prejudiced approach.

I just wish to close down this un-ending debate with remarks that do you feel that so-called better paper-setting techniques can give a student what he percieves and expects from his career in real practical life. I tell you NEVER. In Pakistan NEVER. In other countries like UAE (or to some extent in UK) you may find reasonable place but still in most of positions you would be dominated by CAs or CPAs. Every one can study the market to reach a conclusion. And if still he supports the idea of doing ACCA, he should do it.

Afterall every one is responsible for his acts and decisions.

Regards,

KAMRAN.

- Muhammad Amir - 05-10-2008

Dear Mr KamranACA,

I respect your views as you know the current situation much better than me, I am just of the opinion that if ACCA as professional body is having equally well equipped and in some cases it is better(you must have to agree) then why they can't enjoy same and equitable treatment in the accountancy profession in Pakistan and why they are treated as second tier qualification. The reason in my view is the prejudiced policies of local ACAs/FCAs.

You market Analysis and 50 years foresight can be true but why this is the case for equally well equiped qualification?

I want answers of these concerns from you without having your CA prejudic. Planning for some other qualifications after ACCA is not wrong and one can diversify his porfolio by obtaining more international qualifications but saying ACCA as route to other so called "Self-Esteemed" Qualifications is wrong because ACCA means much more in its own entirety.

Regards,
Muhammad Amir

- Schuaeb - 05-12-2008

@Amir

I don't think there is a need to reply to your post as you have changed the focus of discussion a bit (and what else has remained to be explained after Kamran's post, an unanswered you is the result here). However, I will suggest you one thing do have a more detailed view of ICAP's examination techniques, as most of your allegations are baseless. The sort of comparision you like needs a lot of time, if we get time in future then of course will anaylyze the examination techniques of both bodies.

Now don't be stubborn and if you do think you have abilities and you want to stay in the same field in this country, don't rely on ACCA alone as it is very well known to us all that it is not a ful fledge qualification rather just an entry route for other accountancy qualifications. On this forum I have suggested a lot of people who want to do CA to come through ACCA route. Having abilities is a must otherwise don't risk some precious years of your life. Your point of view about CA is never gonna change anything only you will harm your career.

Come on come for CA and then you yourself will be able to identify the difference why an ACCA earns just a small fraction as compared to CA. Employers of course are not fools

- Muhammad Amir - 05-12-2008

Well, I do have plans to pursue some international standard qualifications(including ICAP's CA because it is a well known International Qualification]) but it does not mean that i can't build my career on the basis of stand alone ACCA. The only reason to pursue some other qualifications is diversification of skills, self esteem, more recognition and so on.

I personally have due respect of all professional accountants of all professional bodies I just have a concern that if both qualifications are having same course coverage and members of both bodies are same human beings with similar functions then why one body enjoys more market share while other is facing difficulty in recognition.

- kamranACA - 05-12-2008

Dear Amir,

Thanks for lesser argument which will lead to concentrate on more important thing.

First of all let me clear your mind about the "prejudice", you typically allege as an atribute of CAs. Your all discussions on every thread of this forum are particularly against CA. This has nothing effect on this esteemed profession. I also don't say that you are prejudiced. In fact what I felt, you want to establish some effectiveness and market worth of your own qualification. This is not wrong but you always adopted a wrong route for doing it.

You know CAs have never been prejudiced with ACCA worldwide. Lots of exemptions given by ICAEW are in front of you. I will discuss Pakistan laters. Lots of other CPA institutes are providing exemptions to ACCA. To this extent ACCA is a good gate way / route qualification. What makes it good to such extent? Only CAs or CPAs? Have you any doubt? Main charterholders are always supporting your ACCA like the parents feed a baby. If you don't agree and feel that ACCA is not a baby (which it is due to its age factor in so many countries) even then the fact that CAs and CPAs have supported it cannot be changed.

In Pakistan, who contributed in increasing the number of ACCA students. There was no ACCA qualified teacher or professional firm available. All the academies and colleges where you learn what to do for ACCA were established by CAs. All tuition providers are CAs. ACCA's enterance in Pakistan was made after taking the consent of ICAP and ICMAP. All jobs in Pakistan's industry are mainly occupied by CAs. In public sector majority is ACMA. Wherever ACCA is getting job, is indirectly with the consent of the members of these institutes. You know, now all jobs published in newspapers, carry ACCA as well in the list of required qualifications. ICAP initially provided material exemptions to ACCAs where only three professional papers were required to be passed by ACCAs and CIMAs to become its members. ......[Restriction in number of exemptions is another long story and is mainly due to two reasons. Firstly, the stuuborn behaviour of your ACCA in providing corresponding exemptions. Secondly, in practice ACCA qualified people could not prove theirselves upto the mark. I am talking about majority of cases. You know when a baby will try to dictate its terms, it will not go a long way in getting affection from the seniors of the field].......... All practising firms are of CAs. Wherever ACCA students are being entertained, they are being entertained by CAs. If you talk about difficulty in getting placements with firms you must keep in mind that in every good firm this difficulty has to be faced. I personally am not in big 4 firms, still, sometimes we get telephonic calls from genies of establishment of our country as reference for some one. This is our culture and doubled with a greater number of capable CA students available to the firms and our responsibility to have CA registered students may create some recruitment problems to ACCAs. But such competition is also faced by CA students. You know how many CA students get seat in big 4 or even in top ten firms.

I personally whenever requested by any ACCA student (either on this forum or otherwise) to guide him on any thing, have never shown any biase or reluctance. You are witness to my behaviour. How can you say I am prejudiced with ACCAs or ICAP is prejudiced with ACCAs? You must have to revisit your analysis.

In fact your association remained failed so far in making a better place for its students / affiliates / members in Pakistan's economy. It has never been the resposnibility of ICAP to do it for you people. In my view any argument against CAs or ICAP calling it biased is nothing else than some immature and un-cultured childish grouses.

CAs no where refrained you people to get positions in Pakistan. As far as public audit practice is concerned, yes of course, it has to be done as per law. ICAP does not make the laws although it may have some role in decision making and developing strategies to be decided and implemented by law makers. Typically the main charterholder for such practice every where remains one or two institutes. There are so many policy matters of every government/country and everything cannot be given in the hands of "east india companies". May be in some point of time (in future) you people would be given some right to start restrictive public practice, but even for that, you will have to wait and your association must have to make stringent efforts.

Still, "practice" does not only mean Audits. Even all the big audit firms feel that their audit departments are in loss and everything which they earn comes from consultancy and advisory. It's a reality. I suggest ACCAs should establish firms and start providing advisory services which may include taxation, corporate affairs, HR consultancies, M&A, transcation structuring and advisory, corporate financing, arranging foreign equity participation for their clients, advising private equity placements, conducting investigations due diligences and forensic audits, financial modeling and business planning, I.T. consultancies, advising on internal controls, procedures, systems and regulations, insolvency and liquidation, official assignies etc etc. There are so many fields. Do you think CAs only work in Audit filed? So you also have a big market to explore. No body is abstaining you. No one is creating hurdles. No one is prejudiced or biased. Develop a courage to do what is the need of the hour.

I hope you may find it helpful in resolving your issues and removing some mis-conceptions.

Regards,

KAMRAN.

- kamranACA - 05-13-2008

xxx

- Muhammad Amir - 05-13-2008

Thank you so much for your post it was really a thought provoking reply.

Regards,

Muhammmad Amir

- kamranACA - 05-13-2008

XXX

- Schuaeb - 05-13-2008

Dear Kamran,

The salary range you have told about CA professional in middle east is of course more reliable, however, the information I have gathered through some friends is a bit different. It suggests somewhat higher salary ranges. And a couple of similar examples I have part qualified (finalists from top firms) are getting salaries in the range of 13 to 14 thousand per month. The only example I know for a qualified ACCA from Pakistan in UAE is earning 5 thousand dirhams per month, he of course, have training experience from member of six largest international firm .

An important aspect of the prejudice that has been missed here is among qualified ACCAs from different part of worlds. Continuing with UAE, anybody can compare salaries of ACCAs from Britian and Pakistan. I look for the answer of this discrimination with ACCA from any advocate of ACCA on this forum. The situation in England and the market there for ACCAs who have qualified from Pakistan should also be known to us. Strange isn't it both have passed same and most comprehensive exams in the world.

- kamranACA - 05-14-2008

Dear Shoiab,

I agree with what you said. There are cases with such a lower salary both of ACCAs and part qualified CAs. There are also some CA finalists who are getting better than ACCAs even in UAE. One of such example is of my friend who came back to qualify his final. He was getting roughly the same amount as you pointed out i.e. in the range of 12-14 K derhams. One of my students who still have to clear one paper of module D has joined a job at UAE on 7,500 derhams. One of my ACCA students joined a job in UAE last year on almost 11,000 derhams.

So the examples could be enormous. But what we have to do, for making a comparison, is to base our finding on majority of the cases. The range of salaries mentioned in my post is what people can generally expect.

I hope this could be understood.

Regards,

KAMRAN.

- kamranACA - 05-14-2008

Dear Shoaib,

The difference in ACCAs from UK and ACCAs from Pakistan has been once elaborated on another thread by me which was not digested by some ACCA students.

It has to be seen by those who decide doing ACCA on the basis of best examples which are basically of ACCAs from UK and not of ACCAs of Pakistan.

Regards,

KAMRAN.