AASR in Lahore - Printable Version

AASR in Lahore - Printable Version

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- noman - 09-29-2007

Schuaib is right......
if there are practices continuing for long time that doesn't make them right...
we hear the words "learning", "professional competence", "mentor/counselling person", "exposure"...etc etc.........these are all words for the sake of it....

my biggest complaint besides those mentioned by schuaib is the allocation of students to different jobs and different heads.....
no one cares when assigning jobs whether a person needs exposure to other areas and other clients...
one person is made to do same client and same head again n again.......
also, when there are juniors.......the managers need to provide equal opportunity to all of them so that they have necessary skills and experience as soon as possible so that they can progress to ranks of semi-senior and senior in due time....
if a student keeps doing same heads and stupid clients again and again.....he can't get the required skills to work at other clients....

- kamranACA - 09-29-2007

Dear Shoaib /Noman,

Shoaib, you have posted a long e-mail full of grouses and complaints that are very normal feature of the age group in which you fall. Nothing contained in your post is such a thing which cannot be replied to clarify the things. The matter basically started from NOC or OC and termination of contract etc. That is the area where you cannot make any pervasive thing to prolong the debate.

All other issues like stipend, late sittings, reviews, attitude of seniors, wait for registration, articles tenure etc not only confined to CA profession. These could be seen every where. Moreover, I personally (not being from management's part) dont regard these issues as material enough to be given much importance. These are the child like complaints.

No body asks you to do CA, if you find the articles tenure un-necessarily longer one. You can do ACCA or ACMA. To get something you have to lose something. Now it could be prolonged to much more length if we dont agree on it.

No body asks you to join a firm where you have to wait long for registration. It is your choice, if not acceptable, go to other firms. At firms side it is their limitation normally as they have limited seats. You period lost for wait of contract registration cannot be included in your articles, as you did it as per your own will, by opting any particular firm. Also, you have to complete your tenure after getting registration, you can avail leaves up to what has been prescribed. It's quite simple, if we dont have to beat about the bushes un-purposefully and wish to understand it. Yes your point of working on off days or for long hours for consideration to be used as credit leave etc is of relevance. We at our firm give such credits and I also know other firms who do it.

Late sittings, out-station assignments, losing classes etc is what CA is known for. We beforehand know this all while we intend to join firms. This is what profession requires, and this is what give ultimate privilage, grace and financial benefits. What you put in, is that what you will take out. I during 75 % tenure of my articles worked on outstation assignments. I never took any classes. I am very well known in my firm (even in its other offices), since years, to be the person who works enormously late. Even students were used to feel fear to join my team while I was personally doing assignments as senior / supervisor / manager etc. Even then I qualified CA along with certain other qualifications. I got progress within my firm (though it is not a very big deal) which so many of those who were reluctant to do whatever I was doing and who always took classes and got benefits could not get. As pointed out for you, I am not trying to be a MIAAN MITHOO. I just want to explain you that the sacrifices are the basic requirement of what we have planned to do while we intend to do CA. And this is what whih pays back. This has much more paid back to so many others who did so well that every body praised them.

You know, this is always your work / firm's name which causes you to get big seats in profession and industry. Otherwise a student dont ever have such contacts and worth. You cant get in the firms who dont have much rush of work and who dont have such late sittings and enormous reviews and other things what you get in big firms. If this is true, then you should get all the answers to your queries.

As far as stipend is concerned, though I had never been much attracted to this nominal amount, still its the right of students to discuss it with regulators through forums like CASA etc. You must know that in history of ICAP there had not only been CAs to occupy council of ICAP. Other people on deputation have also been a part of this council. So, you cannot strictly allege it to be an endeavor from CAs to keep the stipend on lower side. This is policy matter and I cannot speak much about it. In my view it is graceful to call it stipend instead of salary. If it has to be a salary, then it is not respectful even if you get double of existing rates.

Dear Noman,

I dont argue against your point about allocations. Firms should make best effort to train the students in every respect. Allocations should be made accordingly.

Regards,

Kamran.

- Schuaeb - 10-02-2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by noman
 Schuaib is right......
if there are practices continuing for long time that doesn't make them right...
we hear the words "learning", "professional competence", "mentor/counselling person", "exposure"...etc etc.........these are all words for the sake of it....

my biggest complaint besides those mentioned by schuaib is the allocation of students to different jobs and different heads.....
no one cares when assigning jobs whether a person needs exposure to other areas and other clients...
one person is made to do same client and same head again n again.......
also, when there are juniors.......the managers need to provide equal opportunity to all of them so that they have necessary skills and experience as soon as possible so that they can progress to ranks of semi-senior and senior in due time....
if a student keeps doing same heads and stupid clients again and again.....he can't get the required skills to work at other clients....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yaar this was exactly my point, right after I completed my previous post this the most important point I failed to include, which I decided to put later. Thanks to you who very effectively told my point.

So, the matter is management does not at all care for a student's time or learning. They just want to get their task accomplished. This behaviour is enough to get a motivated student totally reluctant.

Kamran, like always you have made the things pretty simple by saying that this is what CA is famous for and all these are child like complaints.

To tell you more, you may not be the only one who is famoust for late sittings. Late sittings are no issue, but when you are reasonlessly made to sit for long hours and are not lett off if you have much more important personal engagement.

May be you are right that its the firm's name that is going to count at the end of your tenure, the management by the virtue of its postion come in an ideal situation to exploit students, so why should not they.

You know that in many firms, all I know, the circulars of CASA are not allowed to be pasted on notice board, so most of the students are unaware of this thing completely.

Kamran in your post I really find nothing that deserved further clarification, infacts it seems that you are aware of all this injustice and are advising students to develop the habit of living with them because they are unavoidable.

- noman - 10-02-2007

Dear kamran sir...

i would like to attract your attention to this statement that i made
"""
if there are practices continuing for long time that doesn't make them right
""""

what i am trying to point out or ask you is...

all the things you mentioned which are the prerequisted sacrifices needed to be for the students...
and you mentioned that we joined the firm n profession knowing all these hardships...
what i would like you to agree with me on is..
do u think that it is possible to have equally competent professionals if these 'sacrifices' were reduced a little?? i mean to say that.....we are a part of this system..but we should try to make it better.......improve on the shortcomings.......don't you agree with that???

you said """"""Late sittings, out-station assignments, losing classes etc is what CA is known for."""""""

in my view...if CA was known for better timings,better opportunity to study and lenient HR policies while maintaining the same level of professional skills and competence.........wouldn't that be better??

or do you think that professsional qualification skills and competence is mutually exclusive with some of our childlike 'concerns'?

i have only heard....i am not claiming...may u could enlighten further....that in foreign firms (with which our local firms so proudly associate themselves) there exist REAL extensive HR policies,career planning/mentoring training, financial compensation and participation of students??
do they consult with trainees about some aspects of their training period???

- Pracs - 10-03-2007

Kamran's post is more of a matter of fact. I think what is important for CA students is to work around these problems and not let them get into your main aim, ie to qualify and gain the necessary experience.

There is a huge room for improvement in how firms are run from an HR perspective, things have changed from era bygones but I think real change and a truly nurturing corporate enivron can be fostered into these firms, especially the Big 10 only when we have direct investments coming in and the global firms are allowed to get stakes in there associates in Pakistan. This has now happened across the border in India and things have changed by leaps and bounds there. Its going to be sooner rather than later. May not be in your life time as a CA student, but yes it will happen.

A silver lining in all this is that life at your CA firm just gives you a glimpse what its going to be like in the real world, and no matter how pampered an upbringing one has had it gives you just the right skills to work your way through your first job.

- Astute Accountant - 10-03-2007

Hmmmmmm I wish I had joined CA, so that I could have presented my point of view, too, because the discussion is so alluring that one simply wants to jump into it.
BTW, in my view both of the âactive participantsâ of this discussion present their ideas in an impressive way. But surely, Iâd side â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦âs views (Now donât just speculateâ¦â¦I only meant to say that my verdict would be in the âManagementâsâ favor!!!) because this is what Iâve always practiced in any capacity.

@ Schuaeb
(In reply of a comment of yours in this very thread) Bhai I believe itâs not just Kamran Bhai; debating with whom is a fun for you, rather indulging with some other members of the forum serves the very same purpose for you. And I think this is the reason that âAap har baat main tang arana apna ikhlaqi farz samajhte hain Pâ â¦â¦â¦â¦ Just kiddingâ¦â¦ soâ¦â¦ stay chilledâ¦â¦!!!

- noman - 10-03-2007

mr.pracs agrees with my points....now its ur turn mr.kamran

- Schuaeb - 10-04-2007

Pracs its nice to see you back on forum after quite some time. I hope you will stay here with us.

That's beyond any doubt that the problems mentioned by myself and Noman should not affect a student in the pursuit of his main aim, i.e. to qualify and gain some experience. However, we are human and not machines so these practices somehow affects a student, and in my case there had been a huge impact.

You are right that things have improved much and we can hope for the things to get better. Its for sure I am not going to witness these changes during my training period.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Astute Accountant
 
@ Schuaeb
(In reply of a comment of yours in this very thread) Bhai I believe itâs not just Kamran Bhai; debating with whom is a fun for you, rather indulging with some other members of the forum serves the very same purpose for you. And I think this is the reason that âAap har baat main tang arana apna ikhlaqi farz samajhte hain Pâ â¦â¦â¦â¦ Just kiddingâ¦â¦ soâ¦â¦ stay chilledâ¦â¦!!!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Kaun her baar main tang arana apna farz-e-manasabi samjhta he is very clear from this post of yours, so I guess no further explanations required.

- Schuaeb - 10-05-2007

I wonder where is Mr. Kamran

- kamranACA - 10-05-2007

Dears,

)

I am here Shoaib. Actually I was out of city to see some personal issues.

First of all to clarify my view point once again. Yes, I am still standing on my fottings without changing my mind to follow the "child-like" complaints and grouses.

Now person-wise replies

Dear Shoaib,

As you have declared that nothing remains to be discussed with you or to dig out further, therefore, there should be nothing to post as reply to your first message after my last post.

Dear Noman,

As a matter of principle I dont argue against the best practices as have been mentioned by you. But dear student, you know there had been a scinetific theory that if we invent IDEAL MACHINE, there will be no end to life. So, idelaism is likely to be pursued but it does not have to be achieved entirely. Not even in the world you are mentioning about. DOOR KAY DHOLE SUHAANEY. You just contact those who left Pakistan for such dreams to UK etc and have faced the real bitter taste of life. It's the human's nature to feel unsatisfied every where. Yes, (as said by Shoaib) I am not the alone who is famous for late sittings. But matter arises from its acceptance and non-acceptance. I had been a studnet of the environment stated by you both, have gone through all these phases, and still have not a single grouse with the firm. WHY? BECOZ ULTIMATELY IT WAS MY CHOICE TO JOIN THIS PROFESSION AND THE FIRM I LIKED. No one rang a bell to my door requesting me to join CA for God's sake.

And yes, it is what for which CA is known for. There is no doubt about it. Whatever you say, appears to be an ideal situation and principally speaking I dont disagree with it, but I at the same time firmly know and believe that it has not to happen here at leas in Pakistan at least in next 50 years. So, what has not to happen, we should not waste our time for it. This is not a hopeless expression. Rather, this is what could be called as a ground relaity that never have to change at least during above stated period. You must appreciate that there was a time when CA was deemed to be the most difficult task. No information, education material and calsses were available. Even then the people who did CA passed through those difficult stages. Now information is openly available, education material is not a problem, bilateral developments of various institutes and bodies are enormous, classes are available, solved papers are available. A lot has been improved. Why we dont appreciate it. This is what has to keep on improving. But, late sittings, hard working, management pressures and tight schedules will never leave CA profession. At leats for next 50 years. It's my best prediction. So dont waste your time and keep concentrated on what your aim is.

As far as better oppurtunity of education and better allocation plans are concerned, I CAP has issued regulations for training of students which will expectedly bring the results. I said so much development has been made for studnets to provide them all the materials, guidance and classes etc.

But as far as lenient HR is concerned it is really a difficult task for the firms, in my view. People normally take undue advantages of any leniency. It happens. If firms are not the angels do u think the kids having no understanding of the situation would be angels as far as professional behaviour is concerned?

If a student comes to me and says that he is going to join classes in morning and will in routine be available to the firm after 1230 am. I would never be lenient enough to ask him to join such classes and leave the work at all. This will never get leniency. There are also number of other examples.

I once told here that a student asked us to give him leave of almost 12 days after his exams (while he was already given exam leave) to sort out his so called "much more important personal engagement" (as in above post mentione dby shoaib as well). My senior partner turned down his request and asked him to join soon after exam. I BEING VERY LENIENT ADVISED HIM TO TAKE ONE WEEK FURTHER LEAVE AFTER EXAM ON MY PERSONAL APPROVAL AND SORT OUT THIS IMPORTANT ENGAGEMENT IN THAT WEEK as I was not going to allow him 12 days leave.

What happened due to this leniency? He without informing the firm left Pakistan for UAE and joined a job. He was basically asking for leave to go there and to check whether the job is feasible for him or not. I was astonished when after the conclusion of a week he e-mailed me a further application for 30 days further leaves declaring that he is caught up with some severe situation at Quetta. I investigated the issue by having a meeting with his Father who gentleman told me that my studnet was at UAE instead of Quetta.

My God!!! This was the result of leniency. I very difficultly managed to get through the situation.

Therefore, my brother, the sort of leniencies you are looking for, will never be available to you or any one else during articles. Time has to prove it.

Dear Pracs,

Like ever, it is a pleasure to see you at the forum. Keep on visiting. I dont comment on the words posted by you becoz in principle I dont disagree with them.

Dear Astute,

I know you cannot disagree with my school of thought. Aakhir Bhaai jo huey.

Dear Shoaib,

I think nothing is to be answered to u except telling that I am here, dont much wonder.

Dears,

As a test case, take the example of two firms as per your own standard, one very leninet one and the other very harsh one. Then analyse the capabilities of its students, post artciles!!! You will get the results.

Regards,

Kamran.

- noman - 10-06-2007

Dear kamran.

i see that although you 'principally' agree with my points...but you regard these as useless......which, i assume,means that its all non-sense.....

you said that things have improved a lot.......if we go by your point of view....those improvements need not have taken place........and you call persuing improvements as 'waste of time'....

i can't say no more.....you belong to the conformist school of thought....i (and shoaib may be) belong to the other......

i guess with the repeated posts of ours....its quite evident that we are not convinced of each other....

i, just like mr.shoaib, conclude that we should agree to disagree.........

as far as your lenient experience is concerned.....we could narrate (i am sure you would know already) many stories of unnecessary strictness on the managment's side...

but as i said before.....lets lay this discussion to rest.......

- Schuaeb - 10-06-2007

Noman I am not willingly to lay this discussion to rest, and let us see how Kamran sb explains this.

Dear Kamran,

There is an obvious difference of opinions between us on this issue. We can understand other's point better by means of some constructive discussion without letting this effect our relationship at all (which is the last thing I would like). But as you said that is no difference between a debate-for-the-sake-of-debate and healthy discussion, so, to remove this disparity in our approaches, I will also like to forget this difference (if any) on this thread.

Another thing that I will like to forget (only on this thread) that you are a senior and respected member of this forum, whose contributions are more than worthy. I will like to forget all this to remove any biases I may have in my mind which may hinder a rational evaluation of your point. I may be harsh at points (this is one of my inherent problems) so please do forgive me

Here I go....

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 
Dear Noman,

As a matter of principle I dont argue against the best practices as have been mentioned by you. But dear student, you know there had been a scinetific theory that if we invent IDEAL MACHINE, there will be no end to life.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Life will have no end if we invent an IDEAL MACHINE or such invention means a definite end to life that is something else. However, what the mankind is doing on this planet is to pursue idealism. And if we follow your suggestion there will be no room for any improvement on this planet. There is always a room for improvement in wordly matters and the success lies in narrowing that room, i.e. approaching toward improvement. Your argument of letting things as they are based on the fact that idealism may be equally desperate is more philosophical than real.

Right after this you say that idealism should be pursued; what a contradiction in thoughts.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 
You just contact those who left Pakistan for such dreams to UK etc and have faced the real bitter taste of life. It's the human's nature to feel unsatisfied every where.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What they have they lost or got who left Pakistan for a better future is not the matter of disscussion on this thread, so you are digressing by putting attetion off the main issue. However, I would like to remind you that on another thread you showed your intentions to migrate to Middle East.

However, this is not the issue here. The above quoted lines of yours were in reply to following comment of Noman

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by noman
 
i have only heard....i am not claiming...may u could enlighten further....that in foreign firms (with which our local firms so proudly associate themselves) there exist REAL extensive HR policies,career planning/mentoring training, financial compensation and participation of students??
do they consult with trainees about some aspects of their training period???
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What he asked was something else and your comment was altogether different. He actually inquired of you that whether linient and employee friendly policies do exist in parent firms whom these local firm proudly associate themselves with. I have to say that you continued your same habit at least on this thread of SAWAL G-A-N-D-A-M JAWAB CHANA. May be you did this to avoid the precise answer, which could go against you. Just may be............

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 
Yes, (as said by Shoaib) I am not the alone who is famous for late sittings. But matter arises from its acceptance and non-acceptance. I had been a studnet of the environment stated by you both, have gone through all these phases, and still have not a single grouse with the firm. WHY? BECOZ ULTIMATELY IT WAS MY CHOICE TO JOIN THIS PROFESSION AND THE FIRM I LIKED. No one rang a bell to my door requesting me to join CA for God's sake.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I very clearly mentioned that I too had been famous for late sittings and I swear with total acceptance of that and didn't use to mind to work at my optimum for late hours. But this is never the case with me now. God knows due to what reason. As its not myself who is being discussed here so I'll not go for the detailed reasons, however, the reasons, certainely, as per my very view, are these non sense policies which you are trying to advocate with out any logic. You may have your own logics but they do not agree with mine and those of Noman.

The second part of the above quote is one I always liked to answer. And has perhaps been repeated by you at several places. I will call it your ultimate argument. No one forces no body to join the profession. One is very much justified to go for a profession to ensure his career.

CA is known for being tough. Students do fail despite putting thier best effort. We didn't call this unjustified.

CA firms are known for hard work, late sittings and may be this is due to the amount of work. So, I or most of the students do not mind working hard. If someone does then you are very much justified. However, on this very thread it seems that you deliberately got yourself failed to grasp the topic. The following twice repeated line of Noman failed to gather any attention from you

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by noman
 
if there are practices continuing for long time that doesn't make them right
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And our point is very effectively explained by Noman. However, no matter due to what reason you totally failed to come to the point. The contradiction in your opinions and thoughts potrays yourself as a confused person. I am saying that at what time you appear to be agreeing with the mal-practices at CA firms and at the one and the same time you are trying to justify them.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by noman
 
what i am trying to point out or ask you is...

all the things you mentioned which are the prerequisted sacrifices needed to be for the students...
and you mentioned that we joined the firm n profession knowing all these hardships...
what i would like you to agree with me on is..
do u think that it is possible to have equally competent professionals if these 'sacrifices' were reduced a little?? i mean to say that.....we are a part of this system..but we should try to make it better.......improve on the shortcomings.......don't you agree with that???

you said """"""Late sittings, out-station assignments, losing classes etc is what CA is known for."""""""

in my view...if CA was known for better timings,better opportunity to study and lenient HR policies while maintaining the same level of professional skills and competence.........wouldn't that be better??

or do you think that professsional qualification skills and competence is mutually exclusive with some of our childlike 'concerns'?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I won't say you didn't answer this, but your answer raised enough questions in my mind regarding your approach for management. I guess you answered it as

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 
But as far as lenient HR is concerned it is really a difficult task for the firms, in my view. People normally take undue advantages of any leniency. It happens. If firms are not the angels do u think the kids having no understanding of the situation would be angels as far as professional behaviour is concerned?

As a test case, take the example of two firms as per your own standard, one very leninet one and the other very harsh one. Then analyse the capabilities of its students, post artciles!!! You will get the results.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

After this analysis of yours I have to agree with Noman that you belong to a conformist school of thought. You are advocating most authoritarian style of management which at least theoratically have been claimed to be the worst. Now let you be determined and brave enough to call these theories of management totally absurd. However, if you agrees with what has been stated in the books of management and still follows this approach then I wonder what one can do about this contradiction.

As far as the comparasion of management styles of two firms is confirmed, I am afraid that most of them comes from your school of thought, who, if left at their own, think that students are inherently lazy, they totally hate work and unless they are coerced to work they won't work. What will happen if a motivated student is subject to such management, I hope you can understand. I will put myself as an example here.

Still others (managers) who follow your style of management perhaps are those who have been got vindictive. As a manager said that during our period we need to get the bikes of our seniors repaired. Now if they have suffered any unjust hardships does it justify them for doing the same. Perhaps management is accompanied by some authority and most of us are not man enough to DIGEST this authority, and may be this is another reason for their behaviour.

Where do you place all that work on Human Resource Management and those who advocate friendly HR policies can motivate employees and is helpful in deriving their max out of them. And why participative style of decision making and delegating work is always preferred? Why are we taught Organizational Behaviour and Business Management if all these theories are nothing but a piece of ....?

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 
You must appreciate that there was a time when CA was deemed to be the most difficult task. No information, education material and calsses were available. Even then the people who did CA passed through those difficult stages. Now information is openly available, education material is not a problem, bilateral developments of various institutes and bodies are enormous, classes are available, solved papers are available.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now, who is discussing the availability of study material here and what your CA firms have to do with this improvement

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 
As far as better oppurtunity of education and better allocation plans are concerned, I CAP has issued regulations for training of students which will expectedly bring the results. I said so much development has been made for studnets to provide them all the materials, guidance and classes etc.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If CA firms are such angels as considered by you then why did ICAP, despite showing totally aloof behaviour, has to intervene. Don't you think this appreciation of your for ICAPs TRs shows that you also beleive that things were or are going absolutely wrong. I guess you very well know but being a representative of management (as you yourself are a manager) are afraid to accept.

Aur chalo ICAP ko bohat dair se he sahi hosh to aya, but I'm sure the representative of management will do their best to counter this. And for your kindest information that at various places the time sheets of students are being filled as management likes. So nobody should hope for anything to get better

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 
I once told here that a student asked us to give him leave of almost 12 days after his exams (while he was already given exam leave) to sort out his so called "much more important personal engagement" (as in above post mentione dby shoaib as well). My senior partner turned down his request and asked him to join soon after exam. I BEING VERY LENIENT ADVISED HIM TO TAKE ONE WEEK FURTHER LEAVE AFTER EXAM ON MY PERSONAL APPROVAL AND SORT OUT THIS IMPORTANT ENGAGEMENT IN THAT WEEK as I was not going to allow him 12 days leave.

What happened due to this leniency? He without informing the firm left Pakistan for UAE and joined a job. He was basically asking for leave to go there and to check whether the job is feasible for him or not. I was astonished when after the conclusion of a week he e-mailed me a further application for 30 days further leaves declaring that he is caught up with some severe situation at Quetta. I investigated the issue by having a meeting with his Father who gentleman told me that my studnet was at UAE instead of Quetta.

My God!!! This was the result of leniency. I very difficultly managed to get through the situation.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A similar incident I'll also quote just to ellobrate the difference and for the other members to evaluate. A friend of mine working in an average firm come to me and told about his plan to move to a better firm. However, we were not sure that will he be recruited in that better firm and will he be able to get himself adjust there. I suggested him to take leaves from his firm and if he adjusts in the new place he may take the NOC from his existing firm.

Is it a crime!! Kamran sb thinks it is. We have other members like Pracs and Noman who can give their opinion in this regard. I agree in such a case a student has to lie to his management for the purpose of getting leaves and its because if he tells them the truth he will never be allowed any leaves. The cruel management justifies such lies. Why people like Kamran sb forgets that primarily a student has to be loyal to himself then to his working place? The management at a number of places proved to be more selfish.

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 
Dear Pracs,

Like ever, it is a pleasure to see you at the forum. Keep on visiting. I dont comment on the words posted by you becoz in principle I dont disagree with them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is what your are agreeing with Kamran. I wonder if you agree with all what Mr. Pracs has said then what is left for us to argue. Have a look yourself

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Pracs
 
There is a huge room for improvement in how firms are run from an HR perspective, things have changed from era bygones but I think real change and a truly nurturing corporate enivron can be fostered into these firms, especially the Big 10
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Although, my post has got a bit long yet some conclusions have to be drawn. I have at a number of occasions tried to prove some contradiction in your thoughts Kamran. This is just for the sake of getting our view points explained and hopefully nothing for you to mind. Why I am saying so is that at one time you agree with some of the things mentioned by me and Noman, however, you also like them to continue. At the same time you rely on saying that there is no place for lenient HR policies in CA firms in Pakistan. This logic of your defys all my sanity (if I am sane at all) Perhaps not only mine but of any reader.

Dear Pracs,

As you have been through all this process (articleship) and among most respected members of the forum. So your opinion on this issue will be more than just worthy.

Regards
Shoaib

- Astute Accountant - 10-06-2007

@ Schuaeb
Veer G! Ik te tusi aannnie jaldi naraz ho jande oo. Main te tuwade naal thora jia "drama" laya si kion k tuwade naal "drama" laan di gul ee hor aa. Bus karo huun na naraz hona nai te main rona shoru kar daina na. Theek aa Veer G!

@ Kamran
Yes Bhai, You are always right!!!! ) BTW, have I confessed explicitly that I agree to your school of thoughts? P But I know you undersatnd me so much as to read my mind )
BTW, Bhai I Missed you Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Much (I'm not exaggrating but I really mean it.) Were you to meet Adocate Bhai?? Was all well there and is all well with you??.....Remain blessed )

- kamranACA - 10-06-2007

Dear Astute,

Yes every one here and there is fine. Thanx for your concerns. I know you dont lie or exaggerate.

Shoaib to find my reply soon.

Regards,

Kamran.

- Schuaeb - 10-07-2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Astute Accountant
 @ Schuaeb
Veer G! Ik te tusi aannnie jaldi naraz ho jande oo. Main te tuwade naal thora jia "drama" laya si kion k tuwade naal "drama" laan di gul ee hor aa. Bus karo huun na naraz hona nai te main rona shoru kar daina na. Theek aa Veer G!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Astute really narazgi wali zara see bhi baat nahin especially after this post of yours. Some posts are a bit on humours sides and remain assured that I don't mind any such thing.

Dear Kamran

I feared that you may mind something in my last post. I hope that I was wrong. Chalo at least some post of mine required a bit time for you to reply

Regards
Shoaib