+- Accountancy Forum (https://www.accountancy.com.pk/forum)
+-- Forum: General (https://www.accountancy.com.pk/forum/forum-general)
+--- Forum: General Discussion (https://www.accountancy.com.pk/forum/forum-general-discussion)
+--- Thread: Is ICAP Monopolist? (/thread-is-icap-monopolist)
Is ICAP Monopolist? - zephyrrr - 02-18-2006
<b>To All The Professioanls, I'm extremely very sorry if something in the following problem discussed by me goes against the professional ethics or I became rude because I lack clarity a little bit in English. As I'm still nothing, highly desirous of learning and leading, so that I think I must solve the confusion in my mind instead of ignoring. As I believe that I deserve to learn from my seniors who are also the most valuable source of learning in all over the world for me.</b>
Although, according to my short experience and very limited knowledge, Chartered Accountants are expert auditors whether it's Internal Auditing or External one. They are the best Financial, Business and Tax Consultancy advisors as they possess in-depth knowledge of Accountancy, Audit, Taxation, Business Management, Financial Environment alongwith strong highly demanding Professional Skills with intensive experience required to lead in the business.
A confusion is prevailing in my mind that in "ICMA" all the courses of "CA" are taught and tested but in "CA" a lot of studies related to "Cost" & "Management" are not taught as in "ICMA". In this way, I feel as if an "CMA" has more knowledge than "CA" and is at the same time a "Chartered Accountant" as well as "Cost & Management Accountant" although there is a restriction that according to Company Ordinance one must be chartered before he/she can perform external audit as we see that "CMAs'" are sometimes just performing internal audit in firms in Pakistan.
Although, a Chartered Accountant acquires experience related to audit during his/her articleship so has an edge over CMAs'. But according to my knowledge as I've read over this forum that whether it's CA or CMA, or other Professional Accountants, they start behaving in the same sense and way after gaining experience. Although, there my be some previlage available to CAs' over CMAs' that they come with a strong background of intensive audit practice in the form of articles from audit firm but CMAs' also acquire the experience after completion during the period when the CAs' complete articles. It means both have the same professional level although if we ignore the priority of CAs allowed to perform external audit.
But !
It seems as if in Pakistan whether it's manufacturing concern or other, Chartered Accountants are preferred to be hired without keeping in view their core specialization. Is it true? Whether a Chartered Accountant is at the same time a "Management Accountant" and "Cost Accounting" expert like "CIMA" and/or "ICMA"?
Hence,
Whether it should be named as LACK OF REQUIRED EFFICIENT ENTREPRENURIAL SKILLS IN PAKISTAN that where "CMAs'" are required, "CAs'" must not be hired? Or, ICAP is the monopolist?
Love is life ! (adeel)
- hanifasif - 02-19-2006
The bests are usually monopolists and monopolists are not normally the bests. ICAP belongs to the first genre
Well, just my feeble attempt, like others I am also waiting for Pracs reply.
- fari_khipk - 02-19-2006
who is PRACS , intro plz
Best wishes with for ur studies Tc AllahHafiz
- zephyrrr - 02-20-2006
First of all thanks a lot for your valuable comments. Yes, offcourse, you are absolutely right. The best deserves to stand monopolist, but I think in their respective field and expertise; not in every field. A Chartered Accountant can't be the best in each and every field of accountancy like in "Management Accounts", "Cost Accounting Issues" and the like in which specialized are "CIMA", "ICMA" etc.. I would still emphasize over my asked problems written after "But!"......!
And very respectfully strongly request to "Pracs" to present his valuable expert view.
Love is life ! (adeel)
- hanifasif - 02-20-2006
Pracs is one of the seasoned voices on these forums.
- zephyrrr - 02-20-2006
Yep, dear hanif. He would be busy, but would definitely reply !
Love is life ! (adeel)
- Pracs - 02-26-2006
Zepphyrr,..
Well, the thing is CAs (which ever country it may be) hold similar sway in the world of Accountancy, finance and audit. Its same all over the Anglo Saxon model countries,.. re UK, Ireland, Canada, Australia (& NZ),South Africa, Pakistan, India etc. There are two reasons for this the first one being that the CA institutions in each of these countries have been the oldest regulator of the profession and hence enjoy complete support of their alumni (who ofcourse over time have become the market leaders). The second reason is that these bodies still attract the best and the brightest of the intake (this does not imply that bright and intelligent people do not opt for other bodies). If you take the case of the UK market around 70%+ of the CFOs of the FTSE 100 companies are Chartered Accountants either from the Inistitute of Chartered Accountants of England & Wales OR Scotland. This is the country where ACCAs under law have the same regulatory capacity of signing audit reports. The CIMA qualification is only expected to fit the middle level ranks of the Financial world.
In Pakistan things are pretty much the same, and because ICAP is the only body that has a mandate to sign the audit reports it does reign supreme and will continue to do so in times to come. Even if other professional bodies like ACCA or ICMAP in time get the mandate ICAP will still keep its monopolist presence or better put be the market leader. There are a number of reasons to this, first, the brightest and the well placed still opt for the ICAP qualification, second the people on top of the finance world are CAs, the Big4 partners (who sway ICAP in policy making and operations)are now primarily ICAP memebers(with some still ICAEW dual members in)this forms a formidable network of professionals who hold the kegs to the profession. Now this is simply not because they hold some sort of monopoly, the position is because of proven skills.
Lets examine who the next best contenders are to CAs, ICMAP's CMAs. Now CMAs may have better knowledge of Cost accounting and some process based accounting but that is where the line draws, ICAP's sylabi in Auditing (ISAs), Accounting (IFRS) and Financial Management is undoubtdly more rigorous and practical. One of the biggest plus for CAs is the practical exposure they get by working in Audit firms, this not only gives them better exposure and skills in Accounting (IFRS) but also in Tax and Law. I have some very close friends who are CMAs and we studied together until Foundation stages,. but there after I found them (as I joined for articles) more bookish in their knowledge and less practical. While I went ahead to be more accounting and tax savy they were still in the 'bookish knowledge' compartment. Two years down my articles I was interacting with Senior Managers and Partners within the firm and with Financail controllers and CFO's outside the firm. By the time my CMA friends passed their exams and joined the industry they were still typifying into the professional accountant mold, whereas I had already interacted with and worked with people who called the shots in the industry. So it would only be natural for employers to hire some one who has had a head start, and can not only look at the books (financial as well as cost) but also talk to / handle the auditors/tax advisor/corporate affairs. Most business in Pakistan are not large MNC set ups,.. even the larger Businesses are huge family business houses who perfer to hire one finance professional who can actually take care of all business needs.
Next in line is the ACCA which has grown tremendously in Pakistan and I think will be a serious question mark for ICAP,.. since they now have local tax and law variants and quite a many ACCAs are being trained at audit firms. Given legal cover ACCA could stand on its two feet. But like CMAs, ACCAs two have a dilemma of the dual membership sydrome (I just coined this up), Most ACCAs and CMAs are CAs as well,.. so their interest rests with ICAP.
The sector I work for (in a London Big4) employes 37 nationalities and most of these are (apart from ICAEW & ICAS CAs and some ACCAs) CAs from South Africa, Australia, Canada, Pakistan, Malaysia, Singapore, Zimbabwae etc. The firm hires from these countries and goes on to employ CAs from each of these countries as CAs are the premium accounting qualification.
Things are ofcourse quite rigid in the US where its just the CPA that holds for an accounting qualification, however what business school you went to and if you have a Masters degree is more important, so you may be paid less if you were a graduate from a community college (and a CPA) and more and be better placed if you are say a Masters from an Ivy league college (and a CPA). Well the US is a funny place for accountants anyways,..
Well these are my observations, so you may or may not agree with me.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Failure is a word unknown to me" - M A Jinnah
- shehzad - 02-27-2006
Hey Zephyr
You have inquired about ICMAP to some dude , who himself is a DESERTER at Foundation Stage ! ! ! .
Had he gone through the Professional Stage ( I doubt somebody of his calibre would ever had ! ! !) he would have known " How undoudebtdly more rigourous and practical " the Professional Level Subjects are .
Merely leaving ICMAP's for an option of ACCA with papa's millions for a foreign soil( yeah yeah the same ACCA which is getting done by every Tom ,Dick ...........( oooooooops , no no not that one .. ) and Harry nowadays , doesn't give the License to anybody to talk disparaging about ICMAP .
HE ought to have attempted all the above subjects he mentoined and most probably then Mr.Zephyr ; you would have asked him ..Hola , na' , wat dya say mate ...........?
Instead of writing PAGES AFTER PAGES ( Boy.... This fella has sure got all the time of the universe ..... ) No Pun intended ..man )
ask him to go through the Syllabi of ICMAP to refresh his knowledge .
- Pracs - 02-28-2006
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by shehzad</i>
<br />Hey Zephyr
You have inquired about ICMAP to some dude , who himself is a DESERTER at Foundation Stage ! ! ! .
Had he gone through the Professional Stage ( I doubt somebody of his calibre would ever had ! ! !) he would have known " How undoudebtdly more rigourous and practical " the Professional Level Subjects are .
Merely leaving ICMAP's for an option of ACCA with papa's millions for a foreign soil( yeah yeah the same ACCA which is getting done by every Tom ,Dick ...........( oooooooops , no no not that one .. ) and Harry nowadays , doesn't give the License to anybody to talk disparaging about ICMAP .
HE ought to have attempted all the above subjects he mentoined and most probably then Mr.Zephyr ; you would have asked him ..Hola , na' , wat dya say mate ...........?
Instead of writing PAGES AFTER PAGES ( Boy.... This fella has sure got all the time of the universe ..... ) No Pun intended ..man )
ask him to go through the Syllabi of ICMAP to refresh his knowledge .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Shehzad in your zest to reply and critisize you have perhaps not given appropriate time to read through my post. But I guess that is understandable at your age, I mean the immaturity.
Just to set the record straight (or if you had read it with an open mind) I have never been a student of ICMAP Fondation stage, I have had friends who studied for ICMAP with us ICAP foundation stage ! I did sit for the ICMAP entrance test (the very first entrance test)and passed (top of the class), but decided not to go ahead with CMA and conentrate just on my ICAP foundation and ACCA and ofcourse M.com. Needless to say I have coached my CMA friends on IFRS and Auditing and have gone through the syllabi.
There is no need to get worked up on some one who has given you out facts and have said that it is his opinion and you need not agree with it.
We are not weighing which qualification is better off here, but how and why CMA and CA are preceived in the market. You can run around and shout at the top of your voice, but facts won't change just for that.
As far as how much time I spend on writing reams of reams pages on this forum is none of your business, what you may not realise is that I type with both my hands. I am sure you are all busy and mighty heading a major MNC.
Pray do spare some time with just a couple of lines in repsonse to this. (or better even have one your lowly paid CAs reply for you)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Failure is a word unknown to me" - M A Jinnah
- zephyrrr - 02-28-2006
In Pakistan things are pretty much the same, and because ICAP is the only body that has a mandate to sign the audit reports it does reign supreme and will continue to do so in times to come. Even if other professional bodies like ACCA or ICMAP in time get the mandate ICAP will still keep its monopolist presence or better put be the market leader. There are a number of reasons to this, first, the brightest and the well placed still opt for the ICAP qualification, second the people on top of the finance world are CAs, the Big4 partners (who sway ICAP in policy making and operations)are now primarily ICAP memebers(with some still ICAEW dual members in)this forms a formidable network of professionals who hold the kegs to the profession. Now this is simply not because they hold some sort of monopoly, the position is because of proven skills.
<b>(By Pracs !)</b>
Most business in Pakistan are not large MNC set ups,.. even the larger Businesses are huge family business houses who perfer to hire one finance professional who can actually take care of all business needs. <b>(By Pracs !)</b>
<font color="red"><b>Shazad</b>, Please don't mind but You should have properly studied and ponder upon the comments offerred by Pracs ! Some of which the most important I found; have been qouted above and the most important courteous lines next to this paragraph are enough for your rigourous comments offerred lavishly, without having proper knowledge of Pakistan's Economy, useless comparison of different certifications not actually asked in the problem, and lacking the understanding capability of problem requested to be discussed by me.</font id="red">
We are not weighing which qualification is better off here, but how and why CMA and CA are preceived in the market. You can run around and shout at the top of your voice, but facts won't change just for that. <b>(By Pracs !)</b>
I'm quite satisfied from your reply pracs ! There was a lot of information about my country's economy, ICAP's quality professionals etc. which you presented in your comments for my all the questions asked, that I was lacking and which caused this confusion to prevail in my mind without knowing the actual facts.
<b>Thanks a lot especially Pracs</b> ! and also hanifasif & Shehzad.
Love is life ! (adeel)
- srsaqib - 03-01-2006
Dear Members,
As per International Federation of Accountants(IFAC) there are three accounting bodies in Pakistan namely,
1)Institute of Chartered Accountants of Pakistan (ICAP)
2)Institute of Cost & Management Accountants of Pakistan (ICMAP)
3)Pakistan Institute of Public Finance Accountants (PIPFA)
As per IFAC members of above mentioned bodies are equal. Now question arises here what is the reason of so much difference.
Answer is simple,
These accounting bodies are rated according to capabilities of thier members. ICAP has an advantage that it has the best accountants in Pakistan. That's why it is on top and it is true and no one can change this fact.
And other reason is that most of the CA's are members of ICMAP and PIPFA. "Pracs" is right that knowledge of students of ICMAP are limited to books. After qulifying he has no practical knowledge. This is the fact admitted by ICMAP. ICMAP introduced INTERNSHIP for its students.
Saif-ur-Rehman Saqib
[email protected]
+92 300 278 3602