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+--- Thread: OVERSEAS PAKISTANIS, VISIT VISA AND ISLAMIC SHARIA (/thread-overseas-pakistanis-visit-visa-and-islamic-sharia)
OVERSEAS PAKISTANIS, VISIT VISA AND ISLAMIC SHARIA - javed1971 - 05-21-2006
I am a senior citizen. In my practical life I saw a strange phenomena that some people knowing well that their source of income was both illegal from worldly point of view as well immoral from religious belief, were donating and spending much on ânobleâ causes and charities to satisfy their âinnerâ conscious on the belief that there so good deeds will balance and clean out their bad deeds. The smugglers, dancers, black marketers, hoarders I have seen taking more part in charity. Sponsors of so called Quran T.V appears to have the same theology. At one hand they have created the so called Islamic channel but on the same hand they have created other channels which show and âpreachâ to the young mind those life styles, things which are negation of their own QTV. I have recently met really sensible people who believe QTV was creating more confusions and more religious distortion amongst the ordinary believers. It has adopted another novel way of âearningâ in the name of Islam; namely giving advice to viewers, asking them to write and then prescribing this and that, calling particular doctors which in fact in a very affective technique of promoting the name of concerned doctor or his product know well a written word or a word on TV/Media has most scared weight in our part of the world.
I have forbidden my family to switch on QTV. I only see QTV for Dr. Israr Ahmedâs tafaseer of Quran which to me is really a worth the best part of which I do like is that he does not insist on one particular interpretation and clearly tells his viewers those were two or three interpretations of a particular Ayyat from different school of thoughts and that he believes this one BUT ALLAH KNOWS THE BEST.
Yesterday Monday 15 May 2005 at 09.55 pm Pakistan Standard Time I switched on to QTV for Dr. Isran Ahmed. A question and answer programme was going on. At that moment a question was being put that some Pakistanis go abroad on Visit Visas but there they join employment. Is this employment and thus their earnings âharamâ in the eyes of Islamic Shariah. The answer from the so called Alam was that Islam does not like this. He added that going on Visit Visa and then working there is âHaramâ but earnings of such Pakistanis cannot be termed âsoâ haram as after all those people earn that money through their hard work but of course basic foundation of it is not liked by Shariah. Such so called religious Imams or Alams who get bogus or internet degrees on whch they do not feel shame are the real cause of present anarchy amongst Muslim societies.
I am now retired after more than 22 years service abroad. I went abroad for a visit on a visit visa to a family friend. During a reception an Arab sheikh was on our table with my friend. Talking generally with me the Sheikh offered me a job. I had really gone for a visit. The offer was good, I accepted it. My job was in the Ministry of Interior in the office of the Minister. Like in Pakistan the Immigration Department there was under the Ministry of the Interior hence my basic knowledge about immigration rules is quite good which rules in fact universally are almost the same. On my acceptance of the job as per rules a Resident Permit was endorsed by my employer Government on my Passport which made my stay there in accordance with the laws of land of that country. I stayed there 22 years in accordance with laws of that country. When I left Pakistan I went there on Visit Visa which was issued by that country and I full filed all the legal requirements of Pakistan. So how it becomes illegal in the eyes of Shariah if I have not broken any law both of Pakistan and that of my country of employment.
The so called QTV Alam does not know that even those who go to Middle East after getting a properly employment contract from abroad are sent a three month Visit Visa by their employer government and these people as such go abroad on âvisit visaâ. After their arrival in the employer country their stay is converted into employed-residents by issuing them Resident Permits and converting their visit visa into employment visa.
During General Ziaul Haq a very nice group insurance scheme called Overseas Immigrants Insurance was introduced by the State Life. It was worldâs best group insurance scheme ever introduced by any country for its expatriates. If my memories in this old age are not misguiding me the Philippines government perhaps once requested Pakistan to help them in introducing the same for their nationals working abroad. During 1980s and till first half of 1990s it worked fine. But later in line successive governments policies to fetch as much as possible from pockets of the public in one name or the other just to get a little money in the name of Protector of Immigrants registration this insurance scheme was destroyed. I had been one of the biggest advocator of this scheme pressing labour class Pakistanis to definitely get this insurance but since 1996-99 I have left this.
State Life used to issue this insurance policy to anyone like eg to me who came on visit visa and got employment abroad. Later similarly as the new costly ID Cards for Overseas Pakistanis on the foolish ground that that Urdu cards were not readable by foreign authorities, in order to earn more money for the Department, it was interpreted that for getting this insurance one needs to get himself registered with the Protector of Emigrants. Before coming out of Pakistan on getting an employment contract from abroad paying the Protector a hefty fee just âstampingâ the foreign Contract can a little be understood, but why to pay this fees by those who got employment like me at their own and need no stamping of any contract. Pakistan Laws say no body can go abroad for employment without getting registration with Protector of Emigrant. But no Law of Pakistan forbids anywhere that if a person goes abroad on a visit to meet any family member, on a tourism or for performing Umrah and in case he gets employment during his, such an employment will be illegal haing no prior registration with the Protector. If this interpretation of the Department is taken then sons and daughters of those Pakistanis who went abroad after Protector of Emigrants registration, were born there, got education there after which they got employment abroad all become illegally gone abroad. A few months before my return to Pakistan my Department recruited about 100 Pakistani young boys; all sons of long serving Pakistani employees. My Department though instead of bringing recruitment from Pakistan, sons of existing employees should be given preference. All these young boys were born here and got education there. If interpretation of Protector of Emigrants or that of QTV Alam is taken true then all these sons are working illegal as they had not gone abroad on employment visa or have not got registered with the protector. My wife joined me abroad on a Visit Visa which was issued to her as per law. She left Pakistan complying all legal requirements of Pakistan. On her Passport while endorsing visit visa in Pakistan it was clearly written âstay only for 3 months, employment not allowedâ. This visit visa was issued by my Ministry of the Interior in accordance with the law allowing my wife to come and stay with me till I am employed though it was written valid for 3 months stay. On her arrival as per procedure her three month stay was converted into two years residence, renewable, and thus she remained there 20 years legally. For some years she got employment there in accordance with laws of employer country which if interpretation of Pakistan Protector or QTV Alam is taken stands âillegal or against Shariahâ but very strangely her remittances to Pakistan out of her salary were never taken as in âviolation of Pakistani Protector rules or violation of Islamic Shariahâ rather these remittances were welcomes by authorities with open arms.
Our religion Islam is very very simple and nearest to the nature but unfortunately our internet degree holder Alams or Alam having read only some old books in Madrisahs like that of QTV Shariah expert have made it too difficult by issuing this Fatwah or this interpretation.
Is getting oneself photographed Haram or Hilal is an old question now. Those very so called scholars who had been objecting to photographing today feel pleasure in coming on TV is also an old issue. But can I ask this QTV Alam that after half an hour of his departure from the screen there were more than 6 women reciting âNaatsâ and more than hundred audience on same TV Screen. Would the Alam tell how it is that on the same screen he appears where women are showing their naked faces photographed and raising their voices to reach âNa Mahramsâ, Does not his conscious forbids him to come on same screen under the same Shariah principles under which he terms Overseas Pakistanis getting employment as âharam or against Shariahâ..
If this interruption of QTV is accepted then all those students who went to study in Europe/USA and did part time jobs there to cover their study expenses, all those who after study got a chance and got employment there, all those who went on employment abroad but due to their experience or due to their savings later started their own shops or business abroad in, all those who went on employment abroad but due to some extraordinary work or due to their long stay they got foreign nationalities etc are living âharamâ abroad. Under this interpretation if a person goes to Saudia for Umrah, if after performing the same if he becomes ill and instead coming to Pakistan goes to UK for medical treatment or during Umrah a merchant from Italy invites him to accompany with him for trade dialogue, this would be Haramt.
For ALLAH sake do not make very simple Islam into a typical one.
- Shahbaz - 05-21-2006
Assalam o Alekum Warahmatullah-e-Wabarakatuhu,
Javed uncle what u have observed during ur practical life is right. Ppl now dont believe in haram or halaal. There r very few who believe in Allah(swt). And as far as watching QTV is concerned, yes they r not promoting the true islam. Have u ever tried Peace TV? I think they r providing the true knowledge of islam. And if u say that making a channel is illegal then yes it is but not for spreading islam. In my opinion, Television media is like a sword which in good hands can kill the evil just like evil is spreading through television media in the form of songs, movies etc. But like u've said that u only watch QTV for Dr. Israr Ahmed's Tafseer-e-Quran. So just like that u can use TV channels to promote islam. because most of the misconceptions about islam in the whole world is spread through television media like muslims r terrorists etc. It can only be eliminated by using the same weapon they r using to mislead ppl about islam. I love to write more but i gotta prepare for my exams ) Insha Allah will chat with u more. Allah Hafiz Take Care )
- Pracs - 05-21-2006
Mr. Javed I may not agree with you all the way but your article does have a logical drive to it and I would agree with you on many issues. I would like to emphasis myself on two major points. I have spoken to a couple of relegious leaders and though some may agree with me they were not ready to endorse or condemn these issues
1) I have never heard any Ima'am/maulvi or a Khateeb on a Friday prayer ever speak against 'Rashi' civil servants, scurplous buisness men who 'hoard items' to drive their prices up, or businessmen who are tax absconders, Civil servants who may not necessarliy be 'Rashi' but are do not do justice to their 'work'.... this is 'haram' earning. The cannot dare to speak up as you rightly pointed out all this Haram money is pouring into our 'Masjid's'... most of these people are on the 'Masjid Committees'
I have never ever seen a Masjid Imam in Pakistan telling people (who do pray) that please do not make it a reason to 'duck work'. I have seen people who are known to be 'namazi' at work place just don't bother with their work !! every one knows that 'maulvi sahab' will just be that !! is that following Islam. We have forgotten the fact that even with a halal job,... you need to be true to it and 'make it halal'. Which is some thing lost in our societies ! out in the west here people actually work their share they realise that in order to be paid a salary they need to 'deliver'.
2) The thing about the visas.... is it may as well be 'Haram' or not within 'Sharia' if you were actually 'breaking the law' of the country. I am one of those Pakistanis who were born in the Gulf and grew up there,.. so I know what your point on that is. What may be inappropriate is where people go to all these Western countries and claim 'political asylum on the basis of being prosecuted in a Muslim country'.. despite having no problems at all at home. or just getting into countries illegally.. that would be 'un Islamic'... never heard any one say any thing about that.
- sajjad_dar2000 - 05-21-2006
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Yesterday Monday 15 May 2005 at 09.55 pm Pakistan Standard Time I switched on to QTV for Dr. Isran Ahmed. A question and answer programme was going on. At that moment a question was being put that some Pakistanis go abroad on Visit Visas but there they join employment. Is this employment and thus their earnings âharamâ in the eyes of Islamic Shariah. The answer from the so called Alam was that Islam does not like this. He added that going on Visit Visa and then working there is âHaramâ but earnings of such Pakistanis cannot be termed âsoâ haram as after all those people earn that money through their hard work but of course basic foundation of it is not liked by Shariah. Such so called religious Imams or Alams who get bogus or internet degrees on whch they do not feel shame are the real cause of present anarchy amongst Muslim societies.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Dear Mr. Javed I just would like to discuss obove issue only (Visit visa and employment).
Mr. Javed I think either you didnât hear the question properly or you missed some part of question.
Now taking your exampleâ¦you went abroad for a visit on a visit visa to meet a family friend. During a reception an Arab sheikh was on your table with your friend. Talking generally with you, Sheikh offered you a job. You had actually gone for a visit but offer was good so you accepted it.
With the view of your circumstances itâs appears that your work permit went through the legal process therefore without any doubt your employment was halal (condition to the nature of employment).
The point which I would like to raise here is that initially going on visit visa and then converting it as work visa/permit is not forbidden in Islam as long as you donât break the land law.
On the other hand if you go to British embassy and tell them that you want to go to UK for visit but your attention was only to get job in the UK. Somehow you manage to get visit visa and then by the legal process you convert you visa into work permit.
Now situation is totally different compare to your above situation but I firmly believe that your employment still will be halal (condition to its nature) because you converted your visa with legal processes. But initially you told UK embassy that you are only going to Visit the UK which mean you commit a sin by telling them lie which is forbidden in Islam so you in this sense are Gunah Gar and Allah may punish (as Allah is Gafoor-ur-raheem) you for this sin only.
Now consider another example
assume anybody come in the UK and claim political asylum on the basis of being prosecuted in his country, despite having no problems at all at there, that clearly would be 'un Islamic' but here I am not sure about the category of his employment (i.e. halal or haram) but I know several people who claimed asylum on the basis of being Qadyani/Ahmdi or Christian but infect they were Muslim in this case they are out of Islam so here no need to consider either their employment is halal or haram.
Another situation arise when a person obtain a visit visa and enter in the concern country. He starts employment there without having a work visa. Now clearly he is breaching a law as he is a visitor therefore prohibited to join employment unless he changes his status/visa. As he is breaching the law of concern company and getting the employmentâ¦question arise whether his employment is halal? We can argue both ways i.e. 1) his employment is haram as he obtained it illegally 2) his employment is halal but he committed a sin of breach a land law therefore he will be punished accordingly (I actually donât know the answer)â¦
<u>Conclusion</u>
Answer lies according to the situation. Simply saying that converting visit visa into work permit is haram is not true. Despite form this there are many other facts need to consider for assessing whether employment is halal for example
1) getting employment through bribe (haram)
2) apply and gets the job which he is not competent to do (haram)
3) etc etc etc
<u>Disclaimer of opinion</u>[D]effect of paper 2.6 n 3.1
All explanation and answer given above are based on my basic knowledge of Islam therefore seek the opinion of Qualified Alim to get proper answers and explanations.