interest and islam

syedhassan · 12-28-2006, 08:46 PM

hi all..
AZIM BHAI and PARCS...
i dont think we can find any solution to this problem here and on a SINGLE THREAD.. my last post here was some where in early FEB..
still we can see similar and even more odd issues.
now lets see what further the time brings forth...

good wishes..
syed

shahzykhan · 01-19-2007, 03:50 PM

Salam Buddy,
After reading all the stuff you have provided i appreciate you for having such a brilliant mind and raising such a rebellious issue. Actually, we have no certain solution for the issue. The problem is that we have not integrated Islam with other studies i.e. integrating "deen" with "dunia". Even being provided with such a comprehensive religion we still donât understand the real sense of it and the credit goes to our religious scholars. They should also study sciences together with studying Islam so that to enable them understand these matter and give solutions in the light of Islamic view point. I think there should be sub-specializations to there field which adress all the fields of "dunia".
I was astonished to see how insensibly these scholars behave, they are not actually
realizing there responsibilities. I watched a TV program name âAalim Onlineâ
a very popular program on Islamic issues and found that they have no idea of what an interest is.
A mualwi invited in the program was asked to comment on House Building Finance provide by the banks. He replied that if bank give such a loan, it is not haram. For example if you are paying Rs.25 lac for a house having actual price Rs. 20 lac, you are supposed to consider as if the value of the house was Rs. 25 lac. He was ignoring the fact that interest calculation is used in arriving at the amount payable.
After all the observation I donât think that we can rely on them.
About your issue, I totally agree that if the interest rate is equal to the inflation rate, it should be allowed, but not above that, as you will retain the real value of your investment.
But if you are sensible, then why you will invest? Just to retain the value of your investment?
Hope my post will give you some satisfaction.
Take Care

kamranACA · 03-06-2007, 06:27 PM

Dear All,

I know and believe that interest is not halal and there so many strict AYAAT and AHAADEES on this issue.

The word "HARAM" is in itself a big subject. What does it mean? Have any of us ever researched on this issue? I think no one. Anyways.

Let's see what islamic banking and islamic banks would do in the upcoming days. But if you have to provide return on some one's invested capital, it would be INTEREST REGARDLESS BY WHICH NAME YOU AND THE MAULVIES CALL IT. There are some issues which dont have any explict solution/clarifications like islamic succession system for properties, nil refernces and comments about invalid child and solution against interest. What can we do is to avoid haram things.

This is what I feel. However, interest is haram and we should avoid it. One should locate alternative means of investment like shares, properties, mutual fund which represent actual business behind them and where there is no surety for a fixed profit. Where one can even bear loss if business goes wrong.

Regards.

kamranACA · 03-06-2007, 06:32 PM

Dear All,

I know and believe that interest is not halal and there so many strict AYAAT and AHAADEES on this issue.

The word "HARAM" is in itself a big subject. What does it mean? Have any of us ever researched on this issue? I think no one. Anyways.

Let's see what islamic banking and islamic banks would do in the upcoming days. But if you have to provide return on some one's invested capital, it would be INTEREST REGARDLESS BY WHICH NAME YOU AND THE MAULVIES CALL IT. There are some issues which dont have any explict solution/clarifications like islamic succession system for properties, nil refernces and comments about invalid child and solution against interest. What can we do is to avoid haram things.

This is what I feel. However, interest is haram and we should avoid it. One should locate alternative means of investment like shares, properties, mutual fund which represent actual business behind them and where there is no surety for a fixed profit. Where one can even bear loss if business goes wrong.

Regards.

Muhammad Amir · 04-15-2007, 11:27 PM

First it to confirm MR KAMRAN ACA.....that interest is always haram and what ever ir RIBA and INTERESE "Which taken money over money"...Mr Kamran ACA(Moulvee Phobiaic Person) said that Islamic banking is also Interest based so he wants to prove that the whole SHARIIA BOARD which is supervising the Islamic banking consists of ALL Unaware people and he is the only aware person....it is to inform you MR KAMRAN ACA that Islamic banking settals are of the banking with COMODITY BASED APPROACH and .... the clear defination of RIBA is that "Money Over Money"....so as what ever be fullfilling this is tittled as RIBA suppose I submitted 100,000 in bank and bank said me that at the end of months the bank will give me 110,000 this is SOOD(RIBA,INTEREST)...and so if i say that in COMMODITY based approach it will bo be a Riba...so be carefull when posting on matters which you don't know at all or have very few knowledge regarding this....thaks you

kamranACA · 08-28-2007, 07:41 PM

Amir,

I never had been into this thread after posting my views herein. So, I was not aware of your mentally disturbed (as you sometimes say to seek a refuge) comments regarding my post.

Brother, wherever the profit is pre-determined with the pay back period, it is RIBA. Have you any doubt over it?

Have you ever been into the audit of accounts of any islamic banking operation, or any modarba which is always approved by your so-called SCHOLAR'S RELIGIOUS BOARD invented by Zia-ul-Haq through Modaraba Companies and Modaraba (Floatation and Control) Ordinance, 1980? This all is a mis-representation of ideas. General Zia and all other such power attainers have made their basis to remain in government. Some did it through getting the support of the Maulvies and some are trying to get by crushing them. You said that ur scholars know lesser and i know greater. Yes, in some cases it can happen. You may know more than me or more than any one else. Knowledge is not restricted by Islam and God with such religious boards and so-called government financed Jahil maulvies. Quran's knowledge is not restricted only with a person who has beared or who has been wearing short length shalwar. I dont have any doubt that these are also the requirements of Islam to have beared and wear short length etc. But knowledge is not only confined with only this class of people. I know how people strive to get such designations and what sort of bribes (in money as well in other intangible ways) they pay for being in such ventures.

Do you believe that the guys who are sitting in Religious Board constituted under Modarba ordinance are really watching the compliances with Islam?

Do you ever analyse the accounting policies narrated in the accounts of islamic banks and modarbas?

DO you think commodity based approach is there in any, i mean in any, bank or modaraba in pakistan. If it is, let me know with proofs. You know these islamic operations dont even match the islamic accounting standard. Even invoice of any underlying stock or machinery is not prepared in the name of bank arranging such commodity. No bank ever maintains any record of its commodities/stocks. Just the rotation of words can never make it islamic.

Do you know how these so-called islamic banking systems/windows earn RIBA by polishing / pianting it as if it were shariah compliant profit?

Do you believe that ensuring only fix amount (even on fluctuating rates) profit without any provision to share losses, is not RIBA.

I wonder on your wisdom and understanding. On one hand you declare I a correct and on other hand you declare that I am wrong. What a confused person you are.

However, I always percieved to be the same.

Allah reham karey.

Regards,

AbdulSamad · 09-17-2008, 06:30 PM

Aslamo Alekum

Due to my writing power of english is not so good, so i am writing in urdu a few sentences and with apologize to those people who dont know URDU ROMAN.

Mein ne yeh poora topic interest ke bare mein perha hai, bohut si baton ne meri knowledge mein izafa kia hai aur kuch batein mein bhi batana chata hoon.

Yeh to sab hi jantey hain Quran aur hadees mein yeh bat sabit ho chuki hai ke sood haram hai chahe wo kisi bhi shakal mein aur sood kehtey bhi use hain jo zaid rakam per dia jaye.

Choonke sood haram ki baat ho rahi hai is liye sirf sood ki baadkeronga wasey to islam hamein zulam kerne mana kerta hai, ab ager bhale koi things purchase ya sale kia jata hai us mein bhi zaid na ho verna wo bhi haraam hota hai , yeh bhi taqreebun sabhi jantey hain,

Ab bat kertey hain sood ki, so quran aur hadees se baat sabit ho chuki hai ke sodi karobar se lean dean haram hai aur lean dean Buisness ko kehtey hain aur ager koi len den ko buisness na kahe to phir sood paida hi nahi hoga kyon ke karz lia jitna utna wapus kia to so sood. yeh to huwi ek baat.

ab doosri baat koi bhi bank (jo ke islamic bank)nahi us se len den haram hai, jese ke credit card, morgage financing , car financing , or thing to purchase on installments. Kyon ke hadees mein hai ke Soodi karobar se lean dean haram hai. phir to obsiously employee ki income bhi sirf wahin bank se haram huwi.

Isi tarah ager koi company jo banks nahi, wo ager bonds leti hai saving hon ya treasury kuch bhi ho aur us pe us ko markup mil raha hai to wo income bhi haram huwi, is ka jawab deh to company ka malik hoga aur wo banda bhi hosakta hai jis ne company ke malik ko is per raghib kia. ab sawal yeh ke company mein to hum job ker rahe hain, to hum to majboor hain per ager ek baat ager sab ko maloom ho ke momin wo hai jo baz kam ayse bhi chor detey hain jis mein haram ka chance ho, yeh aur baat hai ke koi koi momin hota hai.

Per ek baat dunya to arzi hai humein bus halal zindagi per guzara kerna chaiye, aur yeh maloom rakhni chaiye ke konse sources haram banatey hain aur baaz halal sources bhi haram ban jatey hain.

Jese ke estate agencies mein hota hai ke bech mein se commission marleta hai (us ke elewah jo mutaeen hota hai), isi tarah do jaga job kerne mein bhi hai, is mein ziayda ter wo companies jo invention kertey hain like chemical, technical yeh production banatey hain ager ek hi waqt mein yeh doosri jaga kam karey to zulm hota hai phele wale malikon per. otherwise knowledge mein hai to wo to aur baat hai...Is ki sab se bari nishani yeh hai ke ek hi waqt mein do jaga job kertey ho aur ap ko shak ho ke first company wali job khatarey mein paregi to samjlein ke haram start ho chuka hai 2nd company ki kamai se.

Batt huwi to sood ki, sood ka mutabadil, to mere doston kia yeh zaroori hai ke chader se paoon nikala jaye, ager rent per le lia jaye ya kuch bhi to zindagi tab bhi guzar sakti hai bus himat ki zaroorut hai, kal ka kia bharoosa ager bilfarz loan bhi lia without interest if u have died who will ur sons, hum log mein yehi burai hai hum teen chezein virasat mein detey hain apni aulad ko ek QARZ, Doosra BADLA YANI KE INTEQAM kisi dushman se aur teesri cheez haram kami. mein ghurbat ki baat nahi keronga, kyon ke ghareeb wo hai jis ke pass kamane ke sources nahi. Verna to ayse log hain jo izat se ek chat ek roti ek kaprey mein zindagi guzar ker chale jatey hain.. verna to jitna ziayda mal hoga utna ziayda hisab hoga kayamat mein, jis ke pass maal aur hisab kam hoga wo jaldi hisab kitab se farigh hoga kayamat ke din.

Jahan tak islamic banking ki baat hai yeh to awal se banking hai nahi, yeh actually consultancy firm hai jo partnership mein buisness kertein hain. per in ka return low is liye hota ke log abhi ziayda idher invest nahi ker rahe aur 2nd reason profit aur loss buisness ka lazzmi juz hai loss na bhi ho to profit to kam hosakta hai aur is per jo partnership ki bundya per koi cheez purchase ki jati hai us mein ne in ka marjin ziayda hota hai, us ki waja sirf cost hai kyon ke bank to basic interest per kam kerta hai aur islamic banks khud involve hotey hain buisness mein to un expenses countfar kerne partey hain as per project, but i am sure islamic banks is baat ka khayal rakhtey hain ke sood ya koi aur haram income shamil na ho is ke liye donation type ka account create rakhtey hain aur yeh mohtat rehtey hain ke income haram na ho is ki waja hain ek to deen islam aur doosra market mein jis din yeh khaber create hogai ke islamic bank bhi haram kam ker rahe hain to log khuda na khasta islam se bhi door hone ke chances hain.

Kyon ke bhuroosa toot jaye hhum bohut hota hai.

Allah hafiz

Schuaeb · 09-21-2008, 09:02 PM

Dears,

I think the Islamic nature of Islamic banking in Pakistan and even other parts of world has been discussed at a number of places. Somewhat consensus is found about the fact that Islamic banking yet is not truly Islamic till today. And, facts in this regard, I guess can be proved.

I'm indecisive about the fact that all sort of interest in todays banking is RIBA or not. I mean if a deposit holder is getting a fixed return on his profit that is less than the inflation rate then how come that person is getting extra money for his money, in fact he is in loss.

In my personal opinion (though I don't think I have much knowledge bout this) there are not many transactions in banking or commercial sector which do not take into account the time value of money. For example if we take into account the business market of Pakistan commodities are available on much cheaper prices if they are purchased on cash. And if they are purchased on credit extra amount depending upon the period of credit is to be paid. So what will this differential amount be called? Some scholars say it not interest nor Haram. However, I personally fail to reckon any logic that differentiates it from interest.

Once again as I said in the beginning, that my knowledge is very limited and I am never trying to prove that interest is or isn't Riba.

Regards
Shoaib

Owais Bhai · 01-27-2009, 07:21 PM

Dear Shoaib

Perception about interest that it may be allowed to the extent to compensate the inflation is wrong.In principle interest has been forbidden to discourage concentration of money and putting at the sole discretion e.g the banks which do not assume risks associated with the investment of that money as they get agreed reward on their lendings irrespective of the use and outcome therof. Islam encourage to get reward by taking risk of loss so that one should make the best use of his money thereby not just making it benefitial for himself but for the society and economy.

Shahbaz · 01-28-2009, 01:02 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Goodman
 Hazoor (PBUH) used to borrow money from a Jew. Even when Hazoor (PBUH) passed away, he owed money to that Jew and he instructed how the loan was to be settled. Could someone please find and post the terms of that loan on this forum. I think it will answer a lot of questions.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Rasool Allah PBUH never took loan from any Jew. He took that money by keeping his Zara Baktar or may be dhaal as a security. Those who say that he PBUH used to pay interest to Jews is disrespecting Rasool Allah PBUH to a great extent. They must repent at once.

awaisaftab · 01-28-2009, 02:11 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Pracs
 Agreed with Canadian Pakistani and Augustus,.. but who is going to find the way out... little of shariah compliant banking that we have is not designed to be implemented en mass.. so what is the solution,? We cannot just shirk out of the Banking system all together.....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
my dear brother many people don't know much about islamic banking.
According to legeal framework designed by State Bank of Pakistan the Sharia Complince of all islamic banks and financial insttitutions is legal requirement. The audit is conducted by Charted accountants and religious scholars.
Sharia compliance audit involve the reviewing and analysis of corporate activities and transactions to ensure their conformity to Islamic regulations based on the relative Fatwas, and reporting findings to those concerned to administer the necessary rectifications and augment performance.

Pracs · 01-29-2009, 05:48 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awaisaftab
 <blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Pracs
 Agreed with Canadian Pakistani and Augustus,.. but who is going to find the way out... little of shariah compliant banking that we have is not designed to be implemented en mass.. so what is the solution,? We cannot just shirk out of the Banking system all together.....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
my dear brother many people don't know much about islamic banking.
According to legeal framework designed by State Bank of Pakistan the Sharia Complince of all islamic banks and financial insttitutions is legal requirement. The audit is conducted by Charted accountants and religious scholars.
Sharia compliance audit involve the reviewing and analysis of corporate activities and transactions to ensure their conformity to Islamic regulations based on the relative Fatwas, and reporting findings to those concerned to administer the necessary rectifications and augment performance.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You didn't seem to have understand my point here, the thread needs to be read atleast the last dozen posts to understand what is being said

GHK · 02-16-2009, 02:12 PM

AOA all those r out there n those who ain't...
one aspect that I know, which I know that is not comprehensive, is that as per Islamic guidlines one shud accept all risks n rewards. now, in lending the money one takes back original amount plus premium called interest. that interest covers risk for currency devaluation but not solely that risk it also covers time premium. so the lender is not accepting risks of lending the money i.e. in the interst rate (s)he is covering him/herself from every risk. now if one lets out his property on rent, although he takes premium in the form of rentals but he receives his property at market value.
i would like some1... ne1 correcting me where i m wrong but thats my opinion, hey evry1 has right to xprss opinion, rite

"Do not confuse excellence withh perfection. Excellence, I can work for, perfection..., it's God's business."

zamanrana · 02-18-2009, 06:21 PM

ASLAM U ALAIKUM

I DON'T WANT TO SAY MORE ABOUT THE TOPIC AND PLEASE DON'T TAKE ME WRONG, I ONLY WANT QOUTE AN EXPLANATION OF A QURANIC VERSE

ACCORDING TO THE EXPLANATION OF THAT VERSE ALLAH DIVIDED WISDOM INTO HUNDRED PARTS AND DISTRIBUTED 1 PART AMONG ALL HUMAN BIENGS FROM DAY FIRST TO THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT WHICH INCLUDES ALL PEOPLE (LIKE DOCTORS,ENGINEERS,SCIENTISTS ETC. AND ALL PROPHETS(A.S),ULAMA,SAHABA(R.A)ETC.
AND ALLAH GAVE REMAINING 99 PARTS OF WISDOM TO PROPHET MUHAMMAD P.B.U.H
SO FIRST OF ALL WE SHOULD THINK THAT WHAT PART OF WISDOM YOU & I WOULD HAVE GOT THEN WE SHOULD CHALLENGE THE SAYINGS OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD P.B.U.H , TEACHINGS OF ISLAM AND ORDERS OF ALLAH

WHEN QURAN SAYS THAT INTEREST IS HARAM THAN IT IS HARAM

NO ARGUMENTS SHOULD BE MADE ABOUT THAT

THANKS & DONT MIND
[email protected]

Bilal Sulehri · 02-20-2009, 06:18 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GHK
 AOA all those r out there n those who ain't...
one aspect that I know, which I know that is not comprehensive, is that as per Islamic guidlines one shud accept all risks n rewards. now, in lending the money one takes back original amount plus premium called interest. that interest covers risk for currency devaluation but not solely that risk it also covers time premium. so the lender is not accepting risks of lending the money i.e. in the interst rate (s)he is covering him/herself from every risk. now if one lets out his property on rent, although he takes premium in the form of rentals but he receives his property at market value.
i would like some1... ne1 correcting me where i m wrong but thats my opinion, hey evry1 has right to xprss opinion, rite

"Do not confuse excellence withh perfection. Excellence, I can work for, perfection..., it's God's business."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Aoa

You are mixing two un-related concepts in quite an interesting way.
Let me answer your query by using your own 'aspect which you know'.
The lender and the debtor, both should accept all risks and rewards.
Lenders Risk is that he may not recieve his money back, this will be due to the fact that the debtor may suffer a loss in his business and go bankrupt. The possible attraction for lender is that the debtor may use his money and derive some income by combining borrowed money with his efforts. There are two choices for the Lender
1. To leave the risk and reward of profit/loss to the debtor and get his money back at stipulated time. (which he will certainly get back in a Pure Islamic Society).
2. He may choose to strike an agreement with lender and share profit/loss to him, thus he will be contributing to loss and getting benefit from the profit in the correct way.

The debtor's risk is that he may suffer a loss but he will still have to pay back the debt. His reward is that when he combines his efforts with the borrowed money, he may get profit.

The risk/reward being covered by Interest is not based on "Adal". Suppose the creditor is charging 10% interest rate and the debtor gets only 5% profit out of his business. Whats the excess 5% for?
Similarly if creditor is charging 10% interest rate and the inflation is only 6%. Whas the excess 4% for?

In order to cover devaluation of currency. Loans should be forwarded based on "Value of a commodity" e.g. Money worth 1,000 Litres of Petrol or 10 KG of Gold can be lent and on the payment date the amount which can buy 1,000 Lites of Petrol/ 10 KG of Gold as at the return date should be paid back.

The risk/reward being covered by Interest is a pure capitalistic phenomenon. You are talking about this because the economics which you have been tought has its foundation laid upon this concept.

Hope This answers your question )