06-01-2005, 05:30 AM
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'd say that the concept of totalitarianism is some what different from the Khilafa. You see the totalitarianism still follows the man made laws. Where as in Khilafa man made laws are only subjected to places where the devine guidance is quite. In totalitarianism "the individual is subordinated to the state". In Khilafa the individuals are subordinate of the Khalifa only if his verdict are in accordance to the devine guidance, otherwise capital punishment might become applicable for the ruler and an individual is no more bound to do as ordered by the govt. as is the case in the totalitarianism. Again in totalitarianism "opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed" where as in Khilafa it is an obligatory duty for the ruler to maintain the worship places of all the religions. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Still the difference prevails the totalitarianism is led by the intelligentsia who may mould it as per thier benifits as is the case in the capitalism and socialism. Khilafa still is different and I belive the best way to govern.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It sure is a big open catagory. I only advocate the Khilafa, however.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I totally agree with your views regarding Caliphate system.
We reject the smug arrogance which presumes that if you are anti-democratic you are totalitarian. We are against human beings making laws.
During the 1300 years of Islam being implemented as asystem of life, there were no world wars, no mass genocide, no mass sexual deviancy, no extremely high crime rate, etc. As soon as the Khilafah was abolished, we had world wars, the Cold War, increase in crime and sexual deviancies all over the world, the advent of plagues and diseases like AIDS, and so on.
And I presume that the perpetual conflict that mired Islamic history was the reason why the Islamic world was the pinnacle of human civilization for centuries (a documented fact that is acknowledged by all credible historians, including non-Muslim ones). And so many nations and people embraced Islam and till today hold on to Islam Shia and Sunni because there is something in the human being that attracts him to civilizations steeped in bloodshed and turmoil.
If one goes beyond simple common sense and actually screens these historical accounts, one will find that they are nothing but gross exaggerations, twisted facts, and outright lies fabricated by sources who have no credibility, and these historical accounts were magnified by the Orientalists (who added their own twisted jargon) and incorporated into the educational systems in the Muslim lands.
That aside, we should not expect that the Islamic history be a utopian one because history is an account of the actions of human beings, and human beings are not perfect. Therefore, it is expected for the history to have periods of progress and stagnation, prosperity and regression. And the Islamic history is no different. Also, the history is not a measure of the correctness of the system itself. The Islamic system is correct because it is the system from Allah the Creator and is established upon the correct idea, which is the Islamic belief. Therefore, the Islamic system provides the correct mechanism to organize the life and address the problems and issues of human beings. Allah provided us with the correct mechanism, and He illustrated to us how to correctly apply this mechanism through the example of the Prophet (saaws). If, after all of this, the human being fails to utilize this mechanism properly (or, as in the case of today, refuses to use this mechanism altogether), then we have only ourselves to blame for the outcome.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">And suppose the orders which you to establish are the divine orders. So as with little education all can be very well aware of them and can hold the ruler accountable for any discripancy. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Even in the absence of any divine guidance, human beings on their own can figure out that they require a system to live by. And since the beginning of civilization, various statesmen, thinkers, philosophers, and intellectuals, have proposed a myriad of systems to address the human being and to organize the human life. However, because these systems are all man-made systems that stem from man-made ideas, then all of them are incorrect and incapable of addressing the human being in the correct and productive manner. Recently, humanity has suffered under the Communist system and continues to suffer under the Capitalist system.
For this reason, we turn to Allah (swt) to provide us with that correct system. Because Allah (swt) created the human being along with his needs, instincts, and inclinations, then Allah (swt) is the only One who is fit to design a system of life to address our needs, provide solutions to our problems and issues, and organize our lives in the correct manner. And it is our responsibility as Muslims to implement the Islamic system in its entirety - not only because it is the correct system for human beings, but because this responsibility is an order from Allah (swt).
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You see the freedom in case of the Khilafa ruling-in case of an individual-is only taken to the extent which is described in the divine books. So, as mentioned earlier, you educate people about how to live, and give the code of conduct, they will very well know about the extent of freedom and the extent of submitting ones freedom. The govt. does forfiet power in the case of Khilafa the in the example which i wrote in my previous post the Khalifa was held accountabe by an idividual merely becuase he thought that the 'public' property has been miss used.
Security to public property to this extent is not visible in any form of the govt. other than the Khilafa. I suppose.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The rulings issued by the Khalifah or judges, as long as these rulings and judgments are valid Islamic rulings and judgments, then they are binding. The Khalifah can adopt certain rules, and he is free to adopt any rules, as long as these rules were based on valid Islamic opinions. If somebody has a different Islamic opinion than the Khalifah's regarding an issue, he still must obey the Khalifah, but he can keep that opinion and even teach that opinion to others. Ideally, the Khalifah only adopts general rules that are critical to the state and the Ummah, and the adoption of specific rules are left to the governors and judges in each locality, in order to promote creativity and research in jurisprudence.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">And now i yet again write that the freedom given away should be determined by the divine guidance not what the individuals want and how much they can sacrifice. Had individual given this to deciede the poor and non influenceial would still be deprived and the uneven distribution would lead to social unrest.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Finally History is a chronicle of the action of human beings, who are imperfect and make mistakes by nature. Therefore, we should expect any history, even the history of Muslims, to have ups and downs. History is not a determinant of the correctness of the system itself because the subject matter of history is people and the actions of people, not the system itself
What Islam provides is the correct mechanism to organize the society and resolve issues and problems.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Read "Animal Farm". By your writing I asume you are a frequent reader. This book would hardly take 2-3 days of reading (if done in spare time). It is a very good example of what happens when majority is satisfied. You see to satisfy the majority there should be leaders who represent the majority (idealy taken from that majority). Now when these leaders are given powers they are again taken to the palaces and esscorted by huge squads. It doesnt take long when these people become same as those who represnt the minority (rich) in this case. Now as their status change, thier attitude, thinkin, behavioural aspects change and the vicious circle starts again. So in pursuit of 'good' system we lose some potential revolutionists. Again this is personal thinking. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have read this book log time ago. In recent years the book has been used to compare new movements that overthrow heads of a corrupt and undemocratic government or organization, only to become corrupt and oppressive themselves over time as they succumb to the trappings of power and begin using violent and dictatorial methods to keep it.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">socialism has seen its slum without actually reaching the boom. Now as far as the democracy is concerned you can see what is happening around in the world. Where the difference between the rich and poor is widening (around the globe i.e.). And social unrest is at its peak.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<b>âA democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.â - Thomas Jefferson </b>
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">None of the system can be properly implemented without actually educating 'everyone'. Utopia, which is i guess, as difficult as pursuing the dream of an ideal govt. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Until every public school can provide Harvard-quality courses, I don't think democracy will work exactly as planned. The whole thing is basically about the people being educated enough to make sound choices, as opposed to today's Pakistan where the level of education is way below where it should be resulting in authority figures trampling all over civil rights and the people and just about everything democratic. You need people that can withstand a plane crashing into a building without throwing every last one of their rights out of the window just so they can be "safe."
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> ) at least your S*o*briety lets other say what they want to and likewise help them to share what a ginious like you has in mind.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Its always nice to have a conversation with a knowledgeable person like you.
__________________
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><b>The Only True Wisdom Is In Knowing You Know Nothing </b> <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Still the difference prevails the totalitarianism is led by the intelligentsia who may mould it as per thier benifits as is the case in the capitalism and socialism. Khilafa still is different and I belive the best way to govern.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It sure is a big open catagory. I only advocate the Khilafa, however.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I totally agree with your views regarding Caliphate system.
We reject the smug arrogance which presumes that if you are anti-democratic you are totalitarian. We are against human beings making laws.
During the 1300 years of Islam being implemented as asystem of life, there were no world wars, no mass genocide, no mass sexual deviancy, no extremely high crime rate, etc. As soon as the Khilafah was abolished, we had world wars, the Cold War, increase in crime and sexual deviancies all over the world, the advent of plagues and diseases like AIDS, and so on.
And I presume that the perpetual conflict that mired Islamic history was the reason why the Islamic world was the pinnacle of human civilization for centuries (a documented fact that is acknowledged by all credible historians, including non-Muslim ones). And so many nations and people embraced Islam and till today hold on to Islam Shia and Sunni because there is something in the human being that attracts him to civilizations steeped in bloodshed and turmoil.
If one goes beyond simple common sense and actually screens these historical accounts, one will find that they are nothing but gross exaggerations, twisted facts, and outright lies fabricated by sources who have no credibility, and these historical accounts were magnified by the Orientalists (who added their own twisted jargon) and incorporated into the educational systems in the Muslim lands.
That aside, we should not expect that the Islamic history be a utopian one because history is an account of the actions of human beings, and human beings are not perfect. Therefore, it is expected for the history to have periods of progress and stagnation, prosperity and regression. And the Islamic history is no different. Also, the history is not a measure of the correctness of the system itself. The Islamic system is correct because it is the system from Allah the Creator and is established upon the correct idea, which is the Islamic belief. Therefore, the Islamic system provides the correct mechanism to organize the life and address the problems and issues of human beings. Allah provided us with the correct mechanism, and He illustrated to us how to correctly apply this mechanism through the example of the Prophet (saaws). If, after all of this, the human being fails to utilize this mechanism properly (or, as in the case of today, refuses to use this mechanism altogether), then we have only ourselves to blame for the outcome.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">And suppose the orders which you to establish are the divine orders. So as with little education all can be very well aware of them and can hold the ruler accountable for any discripancy. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Even in the absence of any divine guidance, human beings on their own can figure out that they require a system to live by. And since the beginning of civilization, various statesmen, thinkers, philosophers, and intellectuals, have proposed a myriad of systems to address the human being and to organize the human life. However, because these systems are all man-made systems that stem from man-made ideas, then all of them are incorrect and incapable of addressing the human being in the correct and productive manner. Recently, humanity has suffered under the Communist system and continues to suffer under the Capitalist system.
For this reason, we turn to Allah (swt) to provide us with that correct system. Because Allah (swt) created the human being along with his needs, instincts, and inclinations, then Allah (swt) is the only One who is fit to design a system of life to address our needs, provide solutions to our problems and issues, and organize our lives in the correct manner. And it is our responsibility as Muslims to implement the Islamic system in its entirety - not only because it is the correct system for human beings, but because this responsibility is an order from Allah (swt).
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You see the freedom in case of the Khilafa ruling-in case of an individual-is only taken to the extent which is described in the divine books. So, as mentioned earlier, you educate people about how to live, and give the code of conduct, they will very well know about the extent of freedom and the extent of submitting ones freedom. The govt. does forfiet power in the case of Khilafa the in the example which i wrote in my previous post the Khalifa was held accountabe by an idividual merely becuase he thought that the 'public' property has been miss used.
Security to public property to this extent is not visible in any form of the govt. other than the Khilafa. I suppose.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The rulings issued by the Khalifah or judges, as long as these rulings and judgments are valid Islamic rulings and judgments, then they are binding. The Khalifah can adopt certain rules, and he is free to adopt any rules, as long as these rules were based on valid Islamic opinions. If somebody has a different Islamic opinion than the Khalifah's regarding an issue, he still must obey the Khalifah, but he can keep that opinion and even teach that opinion to others. Ideally, the Khalifah only adopts general rules that are critical to the state and the Ummah, and the adoption of specific rules are left to the governors and judges in each locality, in order to promote creativity and research in jurisprudence.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">And now i yet again write that the freedom given away should be determined by the divine guidance not what the individuals want and how much they can sacrifice. Had individual given this to deciede the poor and non influenceial would still be deprived and the uneven distribution would lead to social unrest.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Finally History is a chronicle of the action of human beings, who are imperfect and make mistakes by nature. Therefore, we should expect any history, even the history of Muslims, to have ups and downs. History is not a determinant of the correctness of the system itself because the subject matter of history is people and the actions of people, not the system itself
What Islam provides is the correct mechanism to organize the society and resolve issues and problems.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Read "Animal Farm". By your writing I asume you are a frequent reader. This book would hardly take 2-3 days of reading (if done in spare time). It is a very good example of what happens when majority is satisfied. You see to satisfy the majority there should be leaders who represent the majority (idealy taken from that majority). Now when these leaders are given powers they are again taken to the palaces and esscorted by huge squads. It doesnt take long when these people become same as those who represnt the minority (rich) in this case. Now as their status change, thier attitude, thinkin, behavioural aspects change and the vicious circle starts again. So in pursuit of 'good' system we lose some potential revolutionists. Again this is personal thinking. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have read this book log time ago. In recent years the book has been used to compare new movements that overthrow heads of a corrupt and undemocratic government or organization, only to become corrupt and oppressive themselves over time as they succumb to the trappings of power and begin using violent and dictatorial methods to keep it.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">socialism has seen its slum without actually reaching the boom. Now as far as the democracy is concerned you can see what is happening around in the world. Where the difference between the rich and poor is widening (around the globe i.e.). And social unrest is at its peak.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<b>âA democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.â - Thomas Jefferson </b>
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">None of the system can be properly implemented without actually educating 'everyone'. Utopia, which is i guess, as difficult as pursuing the dream of an ideal govt. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Until every public school can provide Harvard-quality courses, I don't think democracy will work exactly as planned. The whole thing is basically about the people being educated enough to make sound choices, as opposed to today's Pakistan where the level of education is way below where it should be resulting in authority figures trampling all over civil rights and the people and just about everything democratic. You need people that can withstand a plane crashing into a building without throwing every last one of their rights out of the window just so they can be "safe."
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> ) at least your S*o*briety lets other say what they want to and likewise help them to share what a ginious like you has in mind.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Its always nice to have a conversation with a knowledgeable person like you.
__________________
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><b>The Only True Wisdom Is In Knowing You Know Nothing </b> <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
