10-06-2007, 02:25 AM
Noman I am not willingly to lay this discussion to rest, and let us see how Kamran sb explains this.
Dear Kamran,
There is an obvious difference of opinions between us on this issue. We can understand other's point better by means of some constructive discussion without letting this effect our relationship at all (which is the last thing I would like). But as you said that is no difference between a debate-for-the-sake-of-debate and healthy discussion, so, to remove this disparity in our approaches, I will also like to forget this difference (if any) on this thread.
Another thing that I will like to forget (only on this thread) that you are a senior and respected member of this forum, whose contributions are more than worthy. I will like to forget all this to remove any biases I may have in my mind which may hinder a rational evaluation of your point. I may be harsh at points (this is one of my inherent problems) so please do forgive me
Here I go....
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
Dear Noman,
As a matter of principle I dont argue against the best practices as have been mentioned by you. But dear student, you know there had been a scinetific theory that if we invent IDEAL MACHINE, there will be no end to life.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Life will have no end if we invent an IDEAL MACHINE or such invention means a definite end to life that is something else. However, what the mankind is doing on this planet is to pursue idealism. And if we follow your suggestion there will be no room for any improvement on this planet. There is always a room for improvement in wordly matters and the success lies in narrowing that room, i.e. approaching toward improvement. Your argument of letting things as they are based on the fact that idealism may be equally desperate is more philosophical than real.
Right after this you say that idealism should be pursued; what a contradiction in thoughts.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
You just contact those who left Pakistan for such dreams to UK etc and have faced the real bitter taste of life. It's the human's nature to feel unsatisfied every where.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What they have they lost or got who left Pakistan for a better future is not the matter of disscussion on this thread, so you are digressing by putting attetion off the main issue. However, I would like to remind you that on another thread you showed your intentions to migrate to Middle East.
However, this is not the issue here. The above quoted lines of yours were in reply to following comment of Noman
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by noman</i>
<br />
i have only heard....i am not claiming...may u could enlighten further....that in foreign firms (with which our local firms so proudly associate themselves) there exist REAL extensive HR policies,career planning/mentoring training, financial compensation and participation of students??
do they consult with trainees about some aspects of their training period???
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What he asked was something else and your comment was altogether different. He actually inquired of you that whether linient and employee friendly policies do exist in parent firms whom these local firm proudly associate themselves with. I have to say that you continued your same habit at least on this thread of SAWAL G-A-N-D-A-M JAWAB CHANA. May be you did this to avoid the precise answer, which could go against you. Just may be............
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
Yes, (as said by Shoaib) I am not the alone who is famous for late sittings. But matter arises from its acceptance and non-acceptance. I had been a studnet of the environment stated by you both, have gone through all these phases, and still have not a single grouse with the firm. WHY? BECOZ ULTIMATELY IT WAS MY CHOICE TO JOIN THIS PROFESSION AND THE FIRM I LIKED. No one rang a bell to my door requesting me to join CA for God's sake.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I very clearly mentioned that I too had been famous for late sittings and I swear with total acceptance of that and didn't use to mind to work at my optimum for late hours. But this is never the case with me now. God knows due to what reason. As its not myself who is being discussed here so I'll not go for the detailed reasons, however, the reasons, certainely, as per my very view, are these non sense policies which you are trying to advocate with out any logic. You may have your own logics but they do not agree with mine and those of Noman.
The second part of the above quote is one I always liked to answer. And has perhaps been repeated by you at several places. I will call it your ultimate argument. No one forces no body to join the profession. One is very much justified to go for a profession to ensure his career.
CA is known for being tough. Students do fail despite putting thier best effort. We didn't call this unjustified.
CA firms are known for hard work, late sittings and may be this is due to the amount of work. So, I or most of the students do not mind working hard. If someone does then you are very much justified. However, on this very thread it seems that you deliberately got yourself failed to grasp the topic. The following twice repeated line of Noman failed to gather any attention from you
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by noman</i>
<br />
if there are practices continuing for long time that doesn't make them right
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
And our point is very effectively explained by Noman. However, no matter due to what reason you totally failed to come to the point. The contradiction in your opinions and thoughts potrays yourself as a confused person. I am saying that at what time you appear to be agreeing with the mal-practices at CA firms and at the one and the same time you are trying to justify them.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by noman</i>
<br />
what i am trying to point out or ask you is...
all the things you mentioned which are the prerequisted sacrifices needed to be for the students...
and you mentioned that we joined the firm n profession knowing all these hardships...
what i would like you to agree with me on is..
do u think that it is possible to have equally competent professionals if these 'sacrifices' were reduced a little?? i mean to say that.....we are a part of this system..but we should try to make it better.......improve on the shortcomings.......don't you agree with that???
you said """"""Late sittings, out-station assignments, losing classes etc is what CA is known for."""""""
in my view...if CA was known for better timings,better opportunity to study and lenient HR policies while maintaining the same level of professional skills and competence.........wouldn't that be better??
or do you think that professsional qualification skills and competence is mutually exclusive with some of our childlike 'concerns'?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I won't say you didn't answer this, but your answer raised enough questions in my mind regarding your approach for management. I guess you answered it as
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
But as far as lenient HR is concerned it is really a difficult task for the firms, in my view. People normally take undue advantages of any leniency. It happens. If firms are not the angels do u think the kids having no understanding of the situation would be angels as far as professional behaviour is concerned?
As a test case, take the example of two firms as per your own standard, one very leninet one and the other very harsh one. Then analyse the capabilities of its students, post artciles!!! You will get the results.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
After this analysis of yours I have to agree with Noman that you belong to a conformist school of thought. You are advocating most authoritarian style of management which at least theoratically have been claimed to be the worst. Now let you be determined and brave enough to call these theories of management totally absurd. However, if you agrees with what has been stated in the books of management and still follows this approach then I wonder what one can do about this contradiction.
As far as the comparasion of management styles of two firms is confirmed, I am afraid that most of them comes from your school of thought, who, if left at their own, think that students are inherently lazy, they totally hate work and unless they are coerced to work they won't work. What will happen if a motivated student is subject to such management, I hope you can understand. I will put myself as an example here.
Still others (managers) who follow your style of management perhaps are those who have been got vindictive. As a manager said that during our period we need to get the bikes of our seniors repaired. Now if they have suffered any unjust hardships does it justify them for doing the same. Perhaps management is accompanied by some authority and most of us are not man enough to DIGEST this authority, and may be this is another reason for their behaviour.
Where do you place all that work on Human Resource Management and those who advocate friendly HR policies can motivate employees and is helpful in deriving their max out of them. And why participative style of decision making and delegating work is always preferred? Why are we taught Organizational Behaviour and Business Management if all these theories are nothing but a piece of ....?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
You must appreciate that there was a time when CA was deemed to be the most difficult task. No information, education material and calsses were available. Even then the people who did CA passed through those difficult stages. Now information is openly available, education material is not a problem, bilateral developments of various institutes and bodies are enormous, classes are available, solved papers are available.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Now, who is discussing the availability of study material here and what your CA firms have to do with this improvement
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
As far as better oppurtunity of education and better allocation plans are concerned, I CAP has issued regulations for training of students which will expectedly bring the results. I said so much development has been made for studnets to provide them all the materials, guidance and classes etc.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If CA firms are such angels as considered by you then why did ICAP, despite showing totally aloof behaviour, has to intervene. Don't you think this appreciation of your for ICAPs TRs shows that you also beleive that things were or are going absolutely wrong. I guess you very well know but being a representative of management (as you yourself are a manager) are afraid to accept.
Aur chalo ICAP ko bohat dair se he sahi hosh to aya, but I'm sure the representative of management will do their best to counter this. And for your kindest information that at various places the time sheets of students are being filled as management likes. So nobody should hope for anything to get better
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
I once told here that a student asked us to give him leave of almost 12 days after his exams (while he was already given exam leave) to sort out his so called "much more important personal engagement" (as in above post mentione dby shoaib as well). My senior partner turned down his request and asked him to join soon after exam. I BEING VERY LENIENT ADVISED HIM TO TAKE ONE WEEK FURTHER LEAVE AFTER EXAM ON MY PERSONAL APPROVAL AND SORT OUT THIS IMPORTANT ENGAGEMENT IN THAT WEEK as I was not going to allow him 12 days leave.
What happened due to this leniency? He without informing the firm left Pakistan for UAE and joined a job. He was basically asking for leave to go there and to check whether the job is feasible for him or not. I was astonished when after the conclusion of a week he e-mailed me a further application for 30 days further leaves declaring that he is caught up with some severe situation at Quetta. I investigated the issue by having a meeting with his Father who gentleman told me that my studnet was at UAE instead of Quetta.
My God!!! This was the result of leniency. I very difficultly managed to get through the situation.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A similar incident I'll also quote just to ellobrate the difference and for the other members to evaluate. A friend of mine working in an average firm come to me and told about his plan to move to a better firm. However, we were not sure that will he be recruited in that better firm and will he be able to get himself adjust there. I suggested him to take leaves from his firm and if he adjusts in the new place he may take the NOC from his existing firm.
Is it a crime!! Kamran sb thinks it is. We have other members like Pracs and Noman who can give their opinion in this regard. I agree in such a case a student has to lie to his management for the purpose of getting leaves and its because if he tells them the truth he will never be allowed any leaves. The cruel management justifies such lies. Why people like Kamran sb forgets that primarily a student has to be loyal to himself then to his working place? The management at a number of places proved to be more selfish.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
Dear Pracs,
Like ever, it is a pleasure to see you at the forum. Keep on visiting. I dont comment on the words posted by you becoz in principle I dont disagree with them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is what your are agreeing with Kamran. I wonder if you agree with all what Mr. Pracs has said then what is left for us to argue. Have a look yourself
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pracs</i>
<br />
There is a huge room for improvement in how firms are run from an HR perspective, things have changed from era bygones but I think real change and a truly nurturing corporate enivron can be fostered into these firms, especially the Big 10
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Although, my post has got a bit long yet some conclusions have to be drawn. I have at a number of occasions tried to prove some contradiction in your thoughts Kamran. This is just for the sake of getting our view points explained and hopefully nothing for you to mind. Why I am saying so is that at one time you agree with some of the things mentioned by me and Noman, however, you also like them to continue. At the same time you rely on saying that there is no place for lenient HR policies in CA firms in Pakistan. This logic of your defys all my sanity (if I am sane at all) Perhaps not only mine but of any reader.
Dear Pracs,
As you have been through all this process (articleship) and among most respected members of the forum. So your opinion on this issue will be more than just worthy.
Regards
Shoaib
Dear Kamran,
There is an obvious difference of opinions between us on this issue. We can understand other's point better by means of some constructive discussion without letting this effect our relationship at all (which is the last thing I would like). But as you said that is no difference between a debate-for-the-sake-of-debate and healthy discussion, so, to remove this disparity in our approaches, I will also like to forget this difference (if any) on this thread.
Another thing that I will like to forget (only on this thread) that you are a senior and respected member of this forum, whose contributions are more than worthy. I will like to forget all this to remove any biases I may have in my mind which may hinder a rational evaluation of your point. I may be harsh at points (this is one of my inherent problems) so please do forgive me
Here I go....
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
Dear Noman,
As a matter of principle I dont argue against the best practices as have been mentioned by you. But dear student, you know there had been a scinetific theory that if we invent IDEAL MACHINE, there will be no end to life.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Life will have no end if we invent an IDEAL MACHINE or such invention means a definite end to life that is something else. However, what the mankind is doing on this planet is to pursue idealism. And if we follow your suggestion there will be no room for any improvement on this planet. There is always a room for improvement in wordly matters and the success lies in narrowing that room, i.e. approaching toward improvement. Your argument of letting things as they are based on the fact that idealism may be equally desperate is more philosophical than real.
Right after this you say that idealism should be pursued; what a contradiction in thoughts.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
You just contact those who left Pakistan for such dreams to UK etc and have faced the real bitter taste of life. It's the human's nature to feel unsatisfied every where.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What they have they lost or got who left Pakistan for a better future is not the matter of disscussion on this thread, so you are digressing by putting attetion off the main issue. However, I would like to remind you that on another thread you showed your intentions to migrate to Middle East.
However, this is not the issue here. The above quoted lines of yours were in reply to following comment of Noman
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by noman</i>
<br />
i have only heard....i am not claiming...may u could enlighten further....that in foreign firms (with which our local firms so proudly associate themselves) there exist REAL extensive HR policies,career planning/mentoring training, financial compensation and participation of students??
do they consult with trainees about some aspects of their training period???
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What he asked was something else and your comment was altogether different. He actually inquired of you that whether linient and employee friendly policies do exist in parent firms whom these local firm proudly associate themselves with. I have to say that you continued your same habit at least on this thread of SAWAL G-A-N-D-A-M JAWAB CHANA. May be you did this to avoid the precise answer, which could go against you. Just may be............
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
Yes, (as said by Shoaib) I am not the alone who is famous for late sittings. But matter arises from its acceptance and non-acceptance. I had been a studnet of the environment stated by you both, have gone through all these phases, and still have not a single grouse with the firm. WHY? BECOZ ULTIMATELY IT WAS MY CHOICE TO JOIN THIS PROFESSION AND THE FIRM I LIKED. No one rang a bell to my door requesting me to join CA for God's sake.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I very clearly mentioned that I too had been famous for late sittings and I swear with total acceptance of that and didn't use to mind to work at my optimum for late hours. But this is never the case with me now. God knows due to what reason. As its not myself who is being discussed here so I'll not go for the detailed reasons, however, the reasons, certainely, as per my very view, are these non sense policies which you are trying to advocate with out any logic. You may have your own logics but they do not agree with mine and those of Noman.
The second part of the above quote is one I always liked to answer. And has perhaps been repeated by you at several places. I will call it your ultimate argument. No one forces no body to join the profession. One is very much justified to go for a profession to ensure his career.
CA is known for being tough. Students do fail despite putting thier best effort. We didn't call this unjustified.
CA firms are known for hard work, late sittings and may be this is due to the amount of work. So, I or most of the students do not mind working hard. If someone does then you are very much justified. However, on this very thread it seems that you deliberately got yourself failed to grasp the topic. The following twice repeated line of Noman failed to gather any attention from you
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by noman</i>
<br />
if there are practices continuing for long time that doesn't make them right
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
And our point is very effectively explained by Noman. However, no matter due to what reason you totally failed to come to the point. The contradiction in your opinions and thoughts potrays yourself as a confused person. I am saying that at what time you appear to be agreeing with the mal-practices at CA firms and at the one and the same time you are trying to justify them.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by noman</i>
<br />
what i am trying to point out or ask you is...
all the things you mentioned which are the prerequisted sacrifices needed to be for the students...
and you mentioned that we joined the firm n profession knowing all these hardships...
what i would like you to agree with me on is..
do u think that it is possible to have equally competent professionals if these 'sacrifices' were reduced a little?? i mean to say that.....we are a part of this system..but we should try to make it better.......improve on the shortcomings.......don't you agree with that???
you said """"""Late sittings, out-station assignments, losing classes etc is what CA is known for."""""""
in my view...if CA was known for better timings,better opportunity to study and lenient HR policies while maintaining the same level of professional skills and competence.........wouldn't that be better??
or do you think that professsional qualification skills and competence is mutually exclusive with some of our childlike 'concerns'?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I won't say you didn't answer this, but your answer raised enough questions in my mind regarding your approach for management. I guess you answered it as
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
But as far as lenient HR is concerned it is really a difficult task for the firms, in my view. People normally take undue advantages of any leniency. It happens. If firms are not the angels do u think the kids having no understanding of the situation would be angels as far as professional behaviour is concerned?
As a test case, take the example of two firms as per your own standard, one very leninet one and the other very harsh one. Then analyse the capabilities of its students, post artciles!!! You will get the results.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
After this analysis of yours I have to agree with Noman that you belong to a conformist school of thought. You are advocating most authoritarian style of management which at least theoratically have been claimed to be the worst. Now let you be determined and brave enough to call these theories of management totally absurd. However, if you agrees with what has been stated in the books of management and still follows this approach then I wonder what one can do about this contradiction.
As far as the comparasion of management styles of two firms is confirmed, I am afraid that most of them comes from your school of thought, who, if left at their own, think that students are inherently lazy, they totally hate work and unless they are coerced to work they won't work. What will happen if a motivated student is subject to such management, I hope you can understand. I will put myself as an example here.
Still others (managers) who follow your style of management perhaps are those who have been got vindictive. As a manager said that during our period we need to get the bikes of our seniors repaired. Now if they have suffered any unjust hardships does it justify them for doing the same. Perhaps management is accompanied by some authority and most of us are not man enough to DIGEST this authority, and may be this is another reason for their behaviour.
Where do you place all that work on Human Resource Management and those who advocate friendly HR policies can motivate employees and is helpful in deriving their max out of them. And why participative style of decision making and delegating work is always preferred? Why are we taught Organizational Behaviour and Business Management if all these theories are nothing but a piece of ....?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
You must appreciate that there was a time when CA was deemed to be the most difficult task. No information, education material and calsses were available. Even then the people who did CA passed through those difficult stages. Now information is openly available, education material is not a problem, bilateral developments of various institutes and bodies are enormous, classes are available, solved papers are available.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Now, who is discussing the availability of study material here and what your CA firms have to do with this improvement
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
As far as better oppurtunity of education and better allocation plans are concerned, I CAP has issued regulations for training of students which will expectedly bring the results. I said so much development has been made for studnets to provide them all the materials, guidance and classes etc.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If CA firms are such angels as considered by you then why did ICAP, despite showing totally aloof behaviour, has to intervene. Don't you think this appreciation of your for ICAPs TRs shows that you also beleive that things were or are going absolutely wrong. I guess you very well know but being a representative of management (as you yourself are a manager) are afraid to accept.
Aur chalo ICAP ko bohat dair se he sahi hosh to aya, but I'm sure the representative of management will do their best to counter this. And for your kindest information that at various places the time sheets of students are being filled as management likes. So nobody should hope for anything to get better
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
I once told here that a student asked us to give him leave of almost 12 days after his exams (while he was already given exam leave) to sort out his so called "much more important personal engagement" (as in above post mentione dby shoaib as well). My senior partner turned down his request and asked him to join soon after exam. I BEING VERY LENIENT ADVISED HIM TO TAKE ONE WEEK FURTHER LEAVE AFTER EXAM ON MY PERSONAL APPROVAL AND SORT OUT THIS IMPORTANT ENGAGEMENT IN THAT WEEK as I was not going to allow him 12 days leave.
What happened due to this leniency? He without informing the firm left Pakistan for UAE and joined a job. He was basically asking for leave to go there and to check whether the job is feasible for him or not. I was astonished when after the conclusion of a week he e-mailed me a further application for 30 days further leaves declaring that he is caught up with some severe situation at Quetta. I investigated the issue by having a meeting with his Father who gentleman told me that my studnet was at UAE instead of Quetta.
My God!!! This was the result of leniency. I very difficultly managed to get through the situation.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A similar incident I'll also quote just to ellobrate the difference and for the other members to evaluate. A friend of mine working in an average firm come to me and told about his plan to move to a better firm. However, we were not sure that will he be recruited in that better firm and will he be able to get himself adjust there. I suggested him to take leaves from his firm and if he adjusts in the new place he may take the NOC from his existing firm.
Is it a crime!! Kamran sb thinks it is. We have other members like Pracs and Noman who can give their opinion in this regard. I agree in such a case a student has to lie to his management for the purpose of getting leaves and its because if he tells them the truth he will never be allowed any leaves. The cruel management justifies such lies. Why people like Kamran sb forgets that primarily a student has to be loyal to himself then to his working place? The management at a number of places proved to be more selfish.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
Dear Pracs,
Like ever, it is a pleasure to see you at the forum. Keep on visiting. I dont comment on the words posted by you becoz in principle I dont disagree with them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is what your are agreeing with Kamran. I wonder if you agree with all what Mr. Pracs has said then what is left for us to argue. Have a look yourself
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pracs</i>
<br />
There is a huge room for improvement in how firms are run from an HR perspective, things have changed from era bygones but I think real change and a truly nurturing corporate enivron can be fostered into these firms, especially the Big 10
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Although, my post has got a bit long yet some conclusions have to be drawn. I have at a number of occasions tried to prove some contradiction in your thoughts Kamran. This is just for the sake of getting our view points explained and hopefully nothing for you to mind. Why I am saying so is that at one time you agree with some of the things mentioned by me and Noman, however, you also like them to continue. At the same time you rely on saying that there is no place for lenient HR policies in CA firms in Pakistan. This logic of your defys all my sanity (if I am sane at all) Perhaps not only mine but of any reader.
Dear Pracs,
As you have been through all this process (articleship) and among most respected members of the forum. So your opinion on this issue will be more than just worthy.
Regards
Shoaib
