actuarial sciences

[derivativetrader]

I can't comment much on the salary side of CA but that they would be somewhere 40k - 60k to start with - ofcourse some would get a lot more and some may not get even be in this range. I think on average this above figures would be the case, but I'm sure our CA members can put light on this.

For qualified actuaries - again I don't have the precise data, but I would imagine it to be around 60k-80k in the consultancies and State Life, I think but please don't quote me, are paying their fresh actuaries around 120k - 130k. But they may have only 1-2 vacancies every 2-3 years.

An actuary is also a Fellow and only Fellows are called Actuaries - rest are called whatever but actuary. You become a Fellow after some work experience (usually 3 years) and passing (through exemptions or otherwise) all exams set by an actuarial body.

Correspondant is something not a status of membership but may be someone who speaks on behalf of the actuarial body.

Associates are those people who have not cleared all the papers of the profession and have 1 years of work experience. Usually you will find there are a lot of fellows but not many associates.

Affiliate are those who have some actuarial background but not have cleared exams upto the requirement for associate level. Affilates tend to be those people who may have done a BSc. or MSc. in actuarial science but then decided not to persue the career. Or, someone who is working alongside actuaries but doesn't want to get in the hassle of actually studying for the qualification.

Hope it helps.

DT

[derivativetrader]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by sam</i>
<br />My friends brother is a qualfied actuary and he is working in a private company.His salary according to my friend is aroung 1.5 lac rupees and a month back he was also given with latest model HONDA CITY car.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks for your input but the question here is about the starting salary. Do yo know when did he actually qualify?

[om3r_20]

thnx for the previous reply derivative!
My friend told me that there r 32 paperz of actuarial sciences.Passing of each paper will increase the salary by double like e.g.passing of 1 paper earns Rs.4000 so the 2nd paper will earn 8000 and the 3rd 16000....and this continues.He also told me abt a few actuaries earning around 8.5lacs a month working in a firm(i dun xacly rem. the name) but he also said that itz pretty tough and for the past 6years there hasnt been any Actuaries being qualified from Pakistan!!
I still have 6months in my bag to decide my future......ne ways temme ne-thing that cud b useful...thnx!!

[adnan25]

a couple of clarifications, according to a hand out of the pakistan society of actuaries, the starting salary of a new fellow is rs. 100,000 per month, some firms give an increase of rupees 3,000 to 4,000 per exam passed, a lot of people have become fellows and associates in the last six years and the rate is increasing year by year. the managing director, general manager of a life insurance company and owners of consultancy firms can earn 8.5 lakhs per month but for that they need 15-20 years of experience

[derivativetrader]

I totally agree with Adnan25 on the issues he highlighted. I think no profession woulf give you that much compensation in start as was mentioned in last post.

DT

[derivativetrader]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[i]
My friend told me that there r 32 paperz of actuarial sciences.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think there are mere 15-16 exams. For specific info. please visit the IOA or the SOA website.

Thanks

[adnan25]

do u mean money of profit or interest(sood)? because all companies make profit, so then everyone who works for any company is earning haram money using that logic. interest or sood is different, banks are based on interset but insurance is different. sood or interest in banks is a very debatable issue

[adnan25]

indeed sam u have done a lot of research into this topic, i will also do as much research as possible on this topic only then will i be able to debate with u, because uptil now i have not done extensive research on this topic like u have. i hope we have a good debate on this topic in the future

[Actuary2B]

Dear Sam, I think I have answered most of your allegations towards the "legitimacy of Insurance in Islam" several months back in one of my posts on this forum. From what I've researched so far, there is a disagreement b/w Scholars about the legitimacy of Insurance in Islam.
There are mainly 2 different views of Scholars

1) One saying Insurance is Haram altogher and put forwards the points you mentioned in support of the argument.

2) Others saying "Insurance itself is NOT haram", its the element of "interest" that makes it Haram. If we can arrange for a sort of Insurance compensation that is "free from Interest" (TAKKAFUL), that would make it purely legitimate. These Scholars offer answers to the concerns you mentioned in your posts. I also identified those answers in my post few months back that I have already mentioned above. I'll try to post a link to that page in few days to give you the other side of picture....Till then take cares & have nice Eid Holidays!

[Actuary2B]

mmmm, luckily I've been able to gather
few links fairly quickly.

These are my posts few months back

http//www.accountancy.com.pk/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=3&ARCHIVEVIEW=&TOPIC_ID=767

Following is the view of one of the scholars
who has answered in favour of legitimacy of
insurance in Islam (only if there is no involvement
of interest, sood)

http//www.islamicity.com/dialogue/Q283.HTM

One more link

http//www.aljazeerah.info/Islam/Islamic%20subjects/2004%20subjects/February/Permissibility%20of%20Life%20Insurance,%20Adil%20Salahi.htm


Even those scholars who have denied Traditional
Insuarnce altogther, admit that even TRADITIONAL
insurance system can be modified to get in line
with Islamic principles. Its our unfortunateness
that such type of experts & work(TAKAFUL)is in very
initial stages in Pakistan.


There are numerous links on this subject matter &
arguments on each side, you can search google & can
come up with both sides of picture.

<u>Please DON'T TAKE ME AS SAYING OR DECIDING ONE
THING IN FAVOUR OF OTHER. WHAT I ACTUALLY MEANT BY
ALL THIS IS TO GIVE THE READER BOTH SIDES OF PICTURE
& LEAVE THEM ALONE TO MAKE A DECISION FOR THEMSELVES.</u>


I earlier mentioned atleast one SoA's qualified
Actuary (Mr.Abdul Rahim Abdul Wahab, FSA, SidatHyder)
who has been working on Islamic Insurance products
since quite some time now. Few reports from him

http//www.modarabas.com/html/article.php

Since Takaful Ordinance has passed in Pakistan,
He has been part of committee who is looking to
see the feasibility of Takaful business in Pakistan.
i-e He qualified via a traditional actuarial track(SoA),
got around a decade of traditional Actuarial experience
under his belt and then started to utilize his resources
& experience to promote Islamic Insurance products.
I'm sure he wouldn't have been able to do this if he
wouldn't have worked earlier in Traditional Insurance system.

For me(being an Actuarial student), i'm not being
discouraged by Halal/Haram stuff that earlier in
my career. I can always finish up my qualifications
and get my experience under the traditional insurance
system (since Takaful is not that developed at this time)
to get myself in a position to help promote Islamic
Insurance products,without qualifications & experience
I don't see myself of any help to our muslim community
on this issue.

Hope it helps a little!

[Actuary2B]

Dear friend, you seem to have little knowledge (OR seem to be very reluctant to acquire any sort of knowledge at all) about the Islamic Insurance...Takaful...I would really appreciate if you take some time in researching TAKAFUL abit more before jumping on to conclusions... You can search Google.com for "TAKAFUL" Or can ask learned Scholars regarding it.

You are quoting the Quranic versus that are against gambling, I don't think any muslim will disagree with that....But, thats NOT what we are debating here....We are debating WHETHER Insurance (specially GENERAL INSURANCE) is similar to gambling Or NOT?? I clearly differentiated b/w Gambling v.s Personal Automobile insurance in one of my posts whose link I've mentioned above, hope you would take some time to read those posts...From here on, I would limit my discussion to GENERAL INSURANCE since thats what i'm getting educated myself & thats what my future area of practice is!....

In gambling, there is "<u>no limit</u>" on the amount you can receive as a gambler i-e you invest Rs5/- and can make Rs 5million, then you can invest 5 million & can make 5 trillion from that....On the other hand, In GENERAL insurance, the payment from insurer is<u>"limited"</u> infact, often "<u>limited to much less than Actual Losses</u>". Most policies in General Insurance, incorporate a fundamental principle "PRINCIPLE OF INDEMNITY" i-e "Insured must NOT make profit b/c of the existance of insurance". An Autombile insurer will NOT pay you Rs 50 lakh in case of a car accident destroying your Rs 5 lakh's worth car. Infact insurer will probably NOT EVEN pay you the whole 5 lakh after considering DEPRECIATION, DEDUCTIBLES, COINSURANCE & considering the current market value of car. The Actual payment from insurer might be limited to only 4-4.5 lakh (OR LESS) considering the above factors. Inshort, you won't make profit(unjustly riched) b/c of the existance of Insurance but Insurance will save you from complete disasterous financial consequences i-e you can add 1-0.5 lakh (Or MORE) from your own & can buy the same new car Or can buy a 2nd hand car with older model etc. You would be saved from disaster but won't be UNJUSTLY RICHED b/c of the existance of Insurance. There is no business in world that would NOT require you to take ANY sort of chances at all. All types of businesses have their own unique hazards, you can't do a completely risk-free business no matter how small/large your business is.

You may still insist on Insurance = Gambling and I would strongly suggest you to gain a deeper overall understanding of How General Insurance business works? What are the factors that limit the recovery under policies? What factors prohibit insureds from becoming rich by purchasing insurance? What purposes do the PRINCIPLE OF INDEMNITY, COINSURANCE, DEDUCTIBLES, DEPRECIATION etc etc serve under insurance....?

In the end, I intend to clear that I put-up the whole argument to bring forth the <u>other side</u> of picture. I don't find myself (or for that matter..."yourself") to be learned & qualified enough in Sharia matters to comment or decide this issue one way OR the other on a public forum. Its something over which a number of learned scolars disagree, Then how could I or you possibly decide it ??? You can take your view of picture & can be happy with it forever...I've arguments in favour of my view & I'm perfectly satisfied with that...

You can remain in...& can keep on insisting insurance as "gambling".. But I think I'm done in this thread & on this topic. I've said what I wanted to & repeating it again & again won't make my points any more valid - Over & All

[Actuary2B]

For your information...right now I'm not working in
either Traditional or Takaful insurance (My current
job is unrelated to any Actuarial work).


But whenever I'll start working in Actuarial field
(after passing appropriate number of exams that i'm
aiming for myself), I <u>WON'T</u> limit myself only to
Islamic Insurance or Takaful since its in very early
stages in Pakistan and one shouldn't expect it to happen
in a blink of eye OR by rubbing an Aladin's chirag or
something.


Whenever Takaful will start in Pakistan, the key role
players will be the Muslim Actuaries working in traditional
actuarial fields who have enough qualifications & expertise
to understand the difference b/w traditional v.s Takaful business
& have resources to modify the traditional system into
Islamic one.


Without qualifications, expertise & resources one
shouldn't expect any muslim Actuarial student to be
of any meaningful help in this regard. After all, we
don't have any "Islamic Actuarial exam track" in place
for such students & any Actuary willing to work in Islamic
insurance must also have to qualify via traditional
Actuarial exams.


Therefore, I (Or anyone else) <u>DON'T</u> have to limit their
initial career choices to only Islamic insurance & <u>DON'T</u>
have to wait until any such opportunity arises. There
are better chances if we start our Actuarial careers in
traditional system to gain knowlege, expertise & can then
use our resources to promote islamic insurance products.
There are examples already setforth in this regard
Mr.Abdul Rahim, FSA of SHMA.


Most of the above had already been mentioned by me in
one of my previous posts above, YET AGAIN...I feel that
you don't read responses carefully enough for answers
of your current & potential questions??

But anyway, Hope thats what you were looking for in your
question.

[Actuary2B]

Yes friend, I don't think I need to worry too much about <b>Traditional V.S Takaful</b> that early in my career & I've explained the reason above. The difference is that something is <u>purposeful</u> & something <u>without purpose</u>. If I or someone else start with a <b>traditional</b> job with an intent to modify the system at some point in career I think we're correct on it.

As for you, I bet you don't have anything to do with the "Actuarial" profession and don't even know the basics of Insurance business. You are just one of those persons who have nothing else to do, except criticizing others without having logical points to debate on...

As for your religious comments, Amen brother!

[Erin339]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by faisalz</i>
<br />i just wanted to ask if the american , british or the canadian acturial sciences program is any diff<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is pointless. This thread is dead.





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[Mubashir]

Salaam everyone.
I have got a little confusion. Can anyone resolve this issue. As I am inclined in doing actuary, soa. Had passed my graduation, B.Com. Just wanna ask what masters field should I take on parallel to the actuary. I wanna go towards the finace and inventment side, with actuary also (not towards the insurance side). There are two options. Firstly to do MA. in economics. Secondly to do MBA (finance). What would be better in your opinion.
If there are any other fields to take on parallel to actuary in your view, please do mention it. And there scope.
Mubashir.