Shariah-compliant Dressing in Audit Firms

Muhammad Amir · 03-22-2007, 09:23 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The dress code regualations in Islam (DCRI) has got nothing to do with coats or pants. Infact coat originated from Turkey and it used to be called "Turkish coat" then the word Turkish disappeared and word coat is being used now.

Hazoor PBUH never ever wore Shalwar kameez. So can we say that shalwar kameez is not part of DCRI, wrong (otherwise all the mulvis will fall foul of this regulation). infact any dress which adequately covers the body is good in islam and even the arabic dress can be bad if it doesnot adequately cover body.

Suits (pants coats) is neither jewish nor christian, you just have to watch their old movies to see their traditional code. Infact jewish traditional dress code is similar to that of ours.

There is one reference in Quran which can apply to this situation and which goes on to say that muslims should not attempt to look like non muslims EXCEPT when you are amongst them.
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I am personally disappointed by above post.......so shame so harsh wordings againse sunnah and ulemas.......... You said that huzoor(S.A.W.W)didn't wear shalwar qamiz a very wrong(it's like neem moulvi khatray-e-emman) did you read all hadiths are you a proper religious scholar did you study from any islamic institution if all answers not then how dare you reveal that PROPHET(p.b.u.h) did never wear...... you are totally illetrate......and such jahil people like you made all wrong to our beloved religion.....fie upon you.......

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Hmm, then after all this discussion we can safely conclude that pants and shirts are not Unislamic, or at least they are as Islamic as Shalwar Kamiz. The Arabian dress is also somewhat similar; itâs not very much loose and the trouser fits around legs exposing body parts, however, which are covered by the Top (shirt).

Now, Islam does not say to copy the same lifestyle as it was in the time of prophet hood. One more important point is that the dress we are using somewhat cover body more adequately.

Just what I want to say is Islam has to be looked in a broader perspective rather than indulging in things like what to wear, how much inches should beard be etc.

Shoaib
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I didn't say any where that pants and shirts are prohibited.....i just say that they are non islamic and the defination of non islamic is that the thing which is not supported by quran-o-hadiths......so i did not say that wearing pants and shirt is prohibited but i mentioned that they are non islamic and it's proved that such such pants and shirts are non islamic .........to resolve the conflict i think we all contributors to this thread need to go to our sect ulemas in which we beleive in and ask same question which was very firstly post by me and then see what their replys will reflect/////so all of you are requested to go to your faith and sect ulema and ask about how we should dress and what was the dress which HUZOOR(P.b.u.h) wears during all his life ............may allah give all of us sense to talk about sunnah(A'men)........

Pracs · 03-23-2007, 08:07 AM

Let me take this opportunity to welcome you to this forum and then let me take the opportunity to educate you that Islam requires Muslims to carry themselves with some decorum of civilisation. In the same post you are trying to quote Hadith and Sunnah and then you are demeaning and ridiculing Goodman.

I for one find your discussion quite frivilous and fruitless, you have ridiculed Goodman for not being educated at a Madrassah and I suppose you are ? if that is the case I am sorry to say I am not at all impressed by your grasp of the subject. If you think wearing Shalwar Kameez or Jubbah or Gatra so be it, please go ahead and have fun all the way. Don't try to convince us of such ignorance.

Goodman made a very valid point in his exception, ofcourse you have not had the decency to read through and understand properly. Good day Sir.

Pracs · 03-23-2007, 08:09 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Muhammad Amir
 Now a days poeple get confused that what is regidity and what is flexibility........islam is altough flexible but it doesn't mean that what ever you like you should do. Their are certian boudries that binds you.........Alcoholic drinks are prohibited(haram) in our reilgion but if one say that 0.5% Alcoholic water will not make me senseless so islam disallowed whatever which makes you senseless so i will drink such 0.5% Alcoholic drinks it is Hallal(Allowed) for me because it does not seem to me senseless, is this something called flexibility no dude........it is not flexibility it is devoteness to your personal wishes isn't it.....So be carefull with the propaganda of medi,a now a days because they are propagating the western version of islam(Enlightened Moderation) and for this propagation they hired some moderanists such as jawed Ghamdi(Ghmri) and like Mehndi Hassan and others................be carefull from such propaganda because reciting kalima is not whole islam your self devotion to it must be exist...........don't follow such lier's of media like Ghamdi.......they even didn't know about what the sunnah is a clean shaved Ghamdi is saying himself a Mufti-e-Azam ohhhhh my GOD May ALLAH save our Emmans and give us strenght to fight against such other proselytes
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Is Ghamdi sb. clean shaved look closely ! I think we need to be more careful of the likes of propgandists like you !

Schuaeb · 03-24-2007, 09:34 PM

Mr. Ghamdi defintely is not clean shaved and I am not sure whether one has to look closely to know that he have got beard. Just some sense is required and the beard is all apparent.

Coming back to the point yes Muhammad (PBUH)didnt wear Shalwar Kamiz. He wore the same dress as was culture of those days. And, Islam never says to follow the culture of early Muslim era. It's just a code of ethics surronding our lives. So, at least I am convinced that wearing pants and shirts is not unislamic.

By the way Muhammad Amir what you meant when you said ask from ullamas of your sect. Now what if different ullamas give different opinions quoting different hadiths and totally denying others arguments. Bhai jee you have to understand what Isalm actually is.

Shoaib

Muhammad Amir · 03-25-2007, 07:31 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Let me take this opportunity to welcome you to this forum and then let me take the opportunity to educate you that Islam requires Muslims to carry themselves with some decorum of civilisation. In the same post you are trying to quote Hadith and Sunnah and then you are demeaning and ridiculing Goodman.

I for one find your discussion quite frivilous and fruitless, you have ridiculed Goodman for not being educated at a Madrassah and I suppose you are ? if that is the case I am sorry to say I am not at all impressed by your grasp of the subject. If you think wearing Shalwar Kameez or Jubbah or Gatra so be it, please go ahead and have fun all the way. Don't try to convince us of such ignorance.

Goodman made a very valid point in his exception, ofcourse you have not had the decency to read through and understand properly. Good day Sir.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hmmmmmmmmm;
Mr Pracs is totally in wrong interpertation of my posts....ok I am sorry for whatever i said for any one specially to Mr.Ghamdi......Once again sorry for whatever i said and claimed on ghamdi........now regarding above quoted post made by someone named Pracs...i don't know that of what religion you belongs to here we are talking about islamic code for dress......there are some confusions regarding my posts so now it's time to clear all....
1)I didn't said that wearing pants and shirt is Prohibited/forebidden or HARAM in Islam instead i said that it is not something sharie

2)I am not a madarrsah student at all and didn't learned in past in any madarrsah

3)I just only criticised Mr Goodman only for the wording "(otherwise all the mulvis will fall foul of this regulation)"

4)Media now a days is a front line defandent of musharraf's newer version"Enlightened Version" of islam so i only criticise Ghamdi and Company for the part of this enlightment.

5)The word proselyte, that i used in same post in wich i also criticised ghamdi, was not for ghamdi and company i expressely stated others there too.So Proselytes are all those who disagree with basics of islam there using word proselyte is for(Salman Rushdi, Issra Noumani, Ammena Wadood) who are propagating enlightened version of islam(and as per there revelations a man can live with any women without nikkah-Astaghfirullah as same done by isra with salman).Ammena became first women IMAM by totally diaagreeing islamic laws.

6)Wearing Pants and Shirt will applicable for different treatments in western countries and in islamic countries

7)Islam is flexible

8)we don't need to fight with each other the purpose for my post is not fighting if my brother pracs is angry due to some reasons i appologize for it.

9)I also appologize to all of you too for any thing i posted was gibberish, injudicious, and choleric

10)I once again appologize

kamranACA · 03-26-2007, 12:19 AM

Dears All,

I can imagine how islam could have been bifurcated among so many sections and sub-sections. As per Holy Quran, the nation of Hazrat Moosa Aleh-e-salam was fighting over a cow for different reasons while the order was just to sacrifice the cow.

Islam has always been very much flexible in its original text, whereevr suc felxibility was possible. Islam prohibited only those things where flexibility was not workable. From original text i meant Holy Quran and Books of Ahaadees along with the Sunnah of Prophet PBUH. All other stuff like Fiqah,sayings of Imams and Auliya's come after the original text of islam and can be accepted only where it does not go against the original text. Where it is not in agreement with the original text, it is not acceptable. At least for me. Even those Ahaadees which do not agree with the Holy Quran, Ulemaa dont believe on such Ahaadees.

We, not only muslims, but also the other nations, have always tried to mispaint or alter the original messages of their religions. So much has been even done in good faith just based upon the variant personal ideaologies. So many have even changed their holy books. It's the great luck of muslims that the Holy Quran has been promised to be saved in original text by Allah. I wonder what could our attitudes have done with our religion, if God has not given such a promise to preserve his last religion. Notwithstanding all the variations and conflicts, it is our good luck that the original text of Islam is to be preserved.

The Prophet of God PBUH said that among muslims two things have been left by his gracious-self, one is the Holy Quran and second is his (PBUH)'s Sunnah. We should follow what the Holy Quran has stipulated for us and what has been practised by the Prophet (pbuh).

Islam adopted every good thing existing in the society in which islam was first sent by God. Islam, being flexible, has also not objected on so much that was existing in that society and which was not in conflict of islam's basic rules. Islam prohibited only those things that were clearly against the orders of God. Islam introduced the new things that were misisng in that society. For example in that society, people were using alcohal as well as tobbaco. Both of these things have more demerits than the merits. Still, Islam prohibited only alcohal because it was clearly against the principles of islam and Holy Quran (as it makes the user unconcious and he behaves inhumanly). Being the greatest religion and due to its flexibility, ISlam did not prohibited the use of tobacco. Similar things can be seen in other social issues. Many of islamic punishments are the same which were prevailing before Islam. One of them is cutting a hand of thief. This was not a new punishment. Further, some new rules were made by islam that were misisng in the code of life existing before islam.

So much could be written on islam's modernness and flexibility. It has to be like that because it is the religion for ever and has to cater the needs of all the times coming ahead. Islam is a complete code of life.

In Holy Quran you guys can see Soorah-e-Nisa and Soorah-e-Noor, where different codes have been laid down for islamic behaviour and dresses etc. What I find, Islam has never ever stipulated use of SHALWAR QAMEES, TROUSERS SHIRTS, or THOBS or any other thing specifically. It has only stipulated to

- hide the beauty from Naa Mehrams, for women only AND;

- hide the SHARAMGAH's (different hidden parts of body) for both men and women.

Accordingly, for men it is necessary to hide SHARAM-GAHs. Any dress which meet this requirement comply's with the Quran's conditions. It could be an arranged dress like trouser shirt coat tie etc or shalwar qamees, or Thobs, or Dhoti Kurta or whatever. There has been no stipulation for any specific dress. Further, there could be no difference in islamic dress or shriah complying dress as have been repeated in above messgaes by some friends. Both are one and same thing. We have to comply God's orders. Nothing else. No shariah is written by us for our own usage NAOOZBILLAH.

Now I come to the point of why one should change his dress for a job or study?

Its very strange question for me. Islam has been flexible and HAS NEVER prohibited any one to change his shape, dress, house, conveyance etc for improving or altering the life style. When one was dressed by shots and shirts while he was a kid, why he changes it to a complete dress when he is going to school or college or when he gets pubert. Every thing has to be changed with time. If some one was living in a village and was using a cart or horse for conveyance purpose (which I dont regard a bad conveyance as I am also from a village and in my opinion every one is respectable) he should has no objection to move on to a bike or car or bicycle etc if he shifts to a city. Can such a guy say that he must has to use cart or horse as he was using it outrightly since his birth and why he should change his conveyance when he is settling down in a city. Apparently no one would object except some law prohibit the use of a cart or horse in some parts of the city. But would it seem logical. In my view "NO".

I am a guy from a raw village. My father, uncles, brothers, cousins (despite being from villages) have worked on high positions as SSP police, DSP police, Bar At Law, Advocates, FRCS Suregones, Engineers, businessmen, Chartered ACcountants etc. I have a background of educated family. I personally have been using DHOTI KURTA sometimes as a dress when I was at Village. It is not a disgrace. We are zameendaars and we can use there what is prevelant in that society and on which islam do not have an objection. Then by the passage of time I moved to vilage's school, Tehsil's school, Tehsil's college and District's college etc. During these phases I dressed jeans, shalwar qamees, trousers, two piece suits etc dependent upon culture and requirements of the social setup where I was living at various stages. None of these dresses, in my opinion, was in conflict of Islam. Why we use different dresses at various stages of life. Because, social setup requires it and we dont have to become a joke for others.

"HIKMAT KEE BAAT MOMAN KEE GUMSHUDA MEERAAS HAI"

So if one tries to change hisself as per social requirements, it is not a disgrace and it does not affect his religion. This is what I believe. Yes, we should be flexible otherwise we would look quite illogical and joker in one society while our appearance may match the norms of some other society at the same time.

Since the day When I joined C.A. profession, I am using trousers, shirts, ties and suits etc to comply the requirements of my firm and to cater the social needs (while it does not conflict the requirements of Islam at all) and I dont find a problem in being flexible with the circumstances. In my view, it is not a disgrace if a guy who never used trouser, wears it for complying the requirements of his job and career. You can see lots of army men who belong to far off areas where wearing trousers could be an abuse but they wear their uniform to survive with their jobs and careers. All of our heros who are shaheeds were wearing pants and shirts at the times of their shahaadat. It does not affect their shahaadat. Does it do in any one's opinion?

How one would feel or be felt by others, while working for international assignments like out of country audits or big assignments like privatisation etc where so many foreigners have to work with us, if he is so strict with every thing attached to general life.

So, anyways, the motive was to explain that we should be flexible, modernized and easy going. Stiffness would take us far behind. Yes we should comply the code of Islam every where. Further, we should not create further sections of Islam. We should come at one point. Islam was one. It was not bifurcated. We should avoid issues like describing a cow by the nation of Hazrat Moosa Aleh-e-salam.

One should not abuse the others in whatever manner. One muslim has no right to describe any other muslim as non-muslim or kaafir etc. Dont we have to be answerable to God one day? One day our bodies have to be burried in our graves, if it would be in our fate. Otherwise we dont even know what would be our ending, in a plane crash, in sea, in bomb explosion or in what circumstances. We should not forget these realities.

By the way, I like Pervaiz Musharraf's policies and Mr. Ghamidi as a scholar. At the same time I dont like an army man to be the president or ruler of my country. Unfortunately, we are a nation which needs such rulers. Corruption is at hieght and no one wants to regulate the works. Dont we know the politicians. I dont want to know them any more. In these conditions what choice one will have except having such rulers. Current policies are good and should be adopted for the long run. These may work out to save Pakistan which is at last edge in Iran's current scenario.

Let's pray for ourselves, our country and be practical muslims.

Best regards,

Kamran.

Pracs · 03-29-2007, 09:13 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Muhammad Amir
 <blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Let me take this opportunity to welcome you to this forum and then let me take the opportunity to educate you that Islam requires Muslims to carry themselves with some decorum of civilisation. In the same post you are trying to quote Hadith and Sunnah and then you are demeaning and ridiculing Goodman.

I for one find your discussion quite frivilous and fruitless, you have ridiculed Goodman for not being educated at a Madrassah and I suppose you are ? if that is the case I am sorry to say I am not at all impressed by your grasp of the subject. If you think wearing Shalwar Kameez or Jubbah or Gatra so be it, please go ahead and have fun all the way. Don't try to convince us of such ignorance.

Goodman made a very valid point in his exception, ofcourse you have not had the decency to read through and understand properly. Good day Sir.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hmmmmmmmmm;
Mr Pracs is totally in wrong interpertation of my posts....ok I am sorry for whatever i said for any one specially to Mr.Ghamdi......Once again sorry for whatever i said and claimed on ghamdi........now regarding above quoted post made by someone named Pracs...i don't know that of what religion you belongs to here we are talking about islamic code for dress......there are some confusions regarding my posts so now it's time to clear all....
1)I didn't said that wearing pants and shirt is Prohibited/forebidden or HARAM in Islam instead i said that it is not something sharie

2)I am not a madarrsah student at all and didn't learned in past in any madarrsah

3)I just only criticised Mr Goodman only for the wording "(otherwise all the mulvis will fall foul of this regulation)"

4)Media now a days is a front line defandent of musharraf's newer version"Enlightened Version" of islam so i only criticise Ghamdi and Company for the part of this enlightment.

5)The word proselyte, that i used in same post in wich i also criticised ghamdi, was not for ghamdi and company i expressely stated others there too.So Proselytes are all those who disagree with basics of islam there using word proselyte is for(Salman Rushdi, Issra Noumani, Ammena Wadood) who are propagating enlightened version of islam(and as per there revelations a man can live with any women without nikkah-Astaghfirullah as same done by isra with salman).Ammena became first women IMAM by totally diaagreeing islamic laws.

6)Wearing Pants and Shirt will applicable for different treatments in western countries and in islamic countries

7)Islam is flexible

8)we don't need to fight with each other the purpose for my post is not fighting if my brother pracs is angry due to some reasons i appologize for it.

9)I also appologize to all of you too for any thing i posted was gibberish, injudicious, and choleric

10)I once again appologize
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Yeah we are all mistaken here,, and you are the one on the righteous path and yes the 'Shariaee' dress is White starched Shalwar kameez with vest and Jinnah cap thrown in for good measure... happy are we...!!

Your appologies mean nothing because you need to think before you post or is it loud thinking on your part any ways ?

Well I am least bothered about this topic, we have bigger issues to think about like,. are we compliant with 'Haqooq al Abad' is bribery and tax evasion Islamic ? is polluting our cities Islamic, is zero tolerance towards other members of society Islamic ? there is a long list there..

For the record and to answer your crude and rather ironic question, I am a Muslim

kamranACA · 03-29-2007, 10:59 PM

Dear Pracs,

I appreciate the issues you highlighted like Haqooq-ul-Ebad, Pollution etc.

Infact we are a long way behind the nations to which we want to compete on the ground that we are muslims. I wonder how could we be competing them, if we are still fighting with each other and using un-acceptable language just for proving our own idealogies. For a muslim the first thing is Holy Quran. Our greatest holy books has given extreme emphasis on the matters of common welfare. God always made us to have a good social structure where each person should develope a tolernace level for other muslims as well as other humans.

The recent incident of Islamabad regarding the female students of Jamia Hafsa is out of my apprehension and understanding. The latest hot topic of Pakistan was the approval of a law relating to the rights of women. As per this law police cannot enter anybody's home or boundry to detect any act of ZANA or prostitution unless the same has been ordered by the court. However, the prevention of ludeness is under the jurisdiction of police on public places.

The students of Jamia Hafsa Islamabad, forcibly entered a home and kidnapped some females allegedly being involved in prostitution and took them to their Jamia. Some police men were also kidnaped. My goshhhhhhh !!!!!!!!

How can one allege the other like this without any proof, without any court intervention, without any lawful reason and without the involvement of law enforcement agencies. Does it not constitute a KIDNAPPING CASE against the involved students. How can one defeat the legal provisions. Here the question is not about the accuracy of any law. Rather it is about the breach of laws prevlant in our society by some Maulvies. Who gave this legal power to the female studnets of Jamia Hafsa. Who allowed to take the law in hands by the indviduals.

No answer. Hadees is quoted by Maulvees that for being on first grade of faith, one has to prevent an eveil first of all by hands, then comes the level of faith where you try to prevent it by words and the last stage of faith is where you feel it bad in your hearts. I agree to this Hadees.

But every society has its own laws and norms and ways to execute various things. By going to a court and filing writt petition againt such prostitutes and asking for an order to police for taking an action is the law of our country. By doing this, I think the stipulation of having first grade faith can be met.

Where any Hadees has required a muslim to breach the laws of society which have been promulgated by muslim emporers?

If in some one's opinion, a government or emporers are not islamic or muslim, it is his/her own opinion and cannot affect the laws enforced. If some law is not as per Islam, we have to debate on it and then design it to cater the needs of a muslim society. But in no way we can take action against it in our sole position.

I cannot understand until now that how one person describes his ownself as AALIM OR ULEMAA. It is out of my apprhension. If to any such Aalim, i dont accept as aalim, then what prevents me from thinking so. Is there any law that any prticular man is AALIM. Is there any general rule for calling anybody AALIM. For example, If one dont accept the managment of JAMIA HAFSA as AALIMS, then what will happen.

Is it a taboo of our society? Why we are so much afraid of MAULVIES?

I am not talking about real noble and religious people who dont earn their livelihods from religious activities and who dont use the name of religion for their own purposes.

Our fear as a nation (of MAULVIES) have made so much as TABOO of our society. We cant speak against them with fear of being called as a non-muslim as my brother PRACS heared some days ago in a post. It is ridiculous. It is the dirtiest face of our nation.

No body has talked against JAMIA HAFSA's acts. How they dare to create their own government within the state of Pakistan.

As per Islam one cannot allege the other without a lawful proof. For poving prostitution or Zana, Sharia requires 4 witnesses who have seen with their eyes the actual act being done. From actual, I mean ACTUAL act with all of its pros and cons. Just the witness that I saw so many men going to her home is not a witness. Just saying that the repo of such females was not good is not a WITNESS. Just saying that all the street fellows have doubt over the women is not a witness. I am not talking about Pkistani laws. Rather, this is what sharia has laid down as a rule.

And yes, as per Sharia, where such an allegation remains unprooved, the person who alleged the other should be proceeded against under QAZAF LAW. This law suggets same punishment for the person allegating the others that were sugested for the ZANIES/prostitutes.

I am not supporting any dirty or illmannered act in my country. I am only condemning/critising the guy who call them ULEMAAS an hve taken laws in their own hands.

And I am ashamed of the rulers, whose representative, Interior Secretary, was last night saying on ARY news that it is the fault of police and we will take action against them. I dont support the police. But we should not leave senses while closing the chapters. The government official should have been in the knowledge of the law that police itself cannot cross boundries of any body's home and cannot do anything unless Court orders, under new law of women rights.

The government official did not speak a word aginst the unlawful act of the students of JAMIA HAFSA. I also saw on TV some guys of this JAMIA who were armed with big sticks and who were covering their faces with cloth. Is this Palestine? Are we fighting against Israel? What does mean by showing this all stunt? Are such guys the rebels? Then why not they punished with life sentence, that is the law of Pakistan against the rebels. No body has given orders to capture such people and give them punishment for imposing baseless allegations without 4 eye witnesses of ACTUAL ACT OF ZANA. This attracts the punishment for defaming a person. No body will raise case against them for kidnapping the citizens of Pakistan (incluing police men) as they are not allowed to do this, whatever has happened or has not happened.

I feel shame for my government and its officials as well as law enforcement agencies.

Are we living in a jungle, where some so-called ULEMAAs can do anything and no body will ask them about their acts?

Is it a society or a jungle?

This remains unanswered.

I sometimes feel ashamed for being a part of such an illmannered sociey.

Forgive me please, if any one finds my words harsh or bad or whatever, but my heart is in pain since last night. Not for the allegedly kidnapped women; but for the acts of our o-called ulemaas and the sleep of our government and law enforcers.

We should respect each other and should develope tolerence. How can we invite non muslim countries to Islam, if we are doing this all. What would be our attitude at such countries, if we are given a chance to preach them. Would we be kidnaping women and policemen for their similar acts. What we are painting about ourselves. Why we are breaking laws.

If it is a Hadees to prevent the evil by hands for having a first grade faith (which I also believe is a hadees)and if we have to follow this hadees illogically as JAMIA HAFSA did, then why these so-called ULEMAAs are not preventing the similar evils at other places and countries. Where such evils are prevalent. Answer will come that other countries are not our society and we dont see acts being done there. I then reply that where this hadees said that do this all only in your country and leave all others doing whatever evil they want. Where this hadees relieved us from doing so. And yes, we know whatever is happening in other nations and countries. Every one knows. We even visit those countries. So, can these maulvies do the similar act in other countries. Reply is NO. And if thy will do, they will be hangged/punished. Why, because it is a breach of law. Then is it not a breach of law in Pakistan??????????????????????????????? These all people are doing fradulent acts with the nation and muslims and are SADDAM HUSSAIN of their own nature an kind.

Islam is a the most loving reliion. It is a complete code of life. It suggests the best ways to behave and tolerate. It is the religion of peace, love, affection, legality, morale, and forgiveness.

I dont find any other religion even comparable to Islam. For that I dont only believe in ISLAM. Rather, I love ISLAM and its rules.

May God we all can do the best to justify ourelves as muslims.

Forgive me if you find this post wrong.

These are my personal views.

Best regards,

Kamran.

Schuaeb · 03-31-2007, 10:59 PM

So Pracs you are not seen very often on this forum now a days. Perhaps you have got busy as you mentioned you have got more important things to do (just kidding). Quite rude you have been to this guy Muhammad Amir in last couple of posts and perhaps unjust fully in your first post. After having completely receded from his point of view, there as not much left for disagreement, however, some very harsh remarks were used. And, I guess they become the reason for your angry reply.

Kamran ACA nice and impressive thinking you have got. Yaar one thing that I have already suggested to some members we have got to be a bit concise, as long posts will not attract any interest and members will start skipping. (and members like pracs have got more important works to do);

Shoaib

Muhammad Amir · 04-03-2007, 08:13 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">nation (of MAULVIES) have made so much as TABOO of our society. We cant speak against them with fear of being called as a non-muslim as my brother PRACS heared some days ago in a post. It is ridiculous. It is the dirtiest face of our nation<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You KamranACA i don't know what are you trying to say with above regards i didn't say my brother Pracs as non-muslim(Infidel)...to ask him about from which religion he belongs to is just to say him to review his posts and langauge used for RELIGIOUS SCHOLORS....i only asked him..no one muslim has authority to say any one muslim as pagan.....so i must be cleared...............

Now your post Mr KamranACA i din't know that whether their is subject in ICAP's Criculm which teach students ethics....you are totally unethical and without knowing facts you started throwing all mud to ULEMAS(Moulvees)and Jamia's Students.....i say onething here that if any one trys to use abbusive words for ALLAH(S.W.T) so he may not do this because of other "Emanfull People of society" so by knowing this fact he start abusing for Moulvees ...........Infact lot of people who are i don't know at what darja(SCALE) of eman start abusing to SAHABA's(R.A.A), IMMAM'S, OWLIA'S and ULEMA'S .......so don't bother for others and don't bother for pakistan bother about your eman and bother about the words you posted here those words will be using as witness in Akhirrah and will susequently become an obstacle for you so please use words which are authentic and in good faith for your QABAR....................do you know the whole story do you know that whole sector G6 was teased by her acts ...do you know that she is becoming a lewdness prosper in whole area.. do you know what islam says to those who are involved in lewdness.................... ok you are right that their is a rule in islam that if 4 eye witness are present at the time of this QABIH act then it will labelled as ZINA...........but do you ever heared about what islam says about those who are denying with the divine rules and working as lewdness supporters...............think if such aunty shamim is living in your sector and infact near to your home what will be your next course of action even if you complained for such acts to your police station but they didn't do anything.........even if whole sector is an evident of her activities ...even if she confirmed of such acts...even of her co-workers also confirmed her acts.........what will you do...........yes you are right that 4 witness at the time of("Dukhool[enterance]") is necessery.............................so post here with authentic clauses don't make others fools...........and take care about yourself don't bother about such lewds

Muhammad Amir · 04-03-2007, 08:27 AM

http//www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/pakistan/story/2007/03/070328_madrassa_talks_fz.shtml

go and read the facts

kamranACA · 04-03-2007, 05:00 PM

Dear Amir,

I was anticipating a similar reply from your side. The words which you have written in your post do not bother me at all. Some people do not want to understand the issues and always show a tendency of rigid thoughts. I never talked a word against the real noble people who dont earn their livelihoods by using the name of Islam. My message was about the persons who their-selves call them as AALIM or induce the others to understand them as AALIM and do various things in this capacity. Still, the capabilities of any person which make him AALIM by whatever person cannot and will not ensure that upto what extent such AALIM is PRACTICAL. The knowledge is nothing if we dont practise it in true sense.

I hereunder quote my words of previous post

"I cannot understand until now that how one person describes his ownself as AALIM OR ULEMAA. It is out of my apprhension. If to any such Aalim, i dont accept as aalim, then what prevents me from thinking so. Is there any law that any prticular man is AALIM. Is there any general rule for calling anybody AALIM. For example, If one dont accept the managment of JAMIA HAFSA as AALIMS, then what will happen."

Yes, what the Jamia people have done, I dont find them as AALIM. This is my understanding and belief and there is no bar on having any belief as per Islam.

For you Mr. Amir, i clarify that,

I dont know who was that woman (named by you as Shamim) and whatever she was doing. And yes, I dont want to know about her. Who am I to poke my nose in others' affairs. I know one thing, for being compliant of Hadood Laws (as per Shariah) one needs 4 eye witnesses (male witnesses) for proving such an act or if the involved person accepts his/her sin, then it stands proved. This is what Islam has asked us to do. Whatever goes beyond its limits is in my sole opinion the "BIDAT" AND IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES A social crime. The Prophet PBUH has asked us to adopt the in-between way outs and to keep our minds neutral up to possible extent.

Whatever was commonly known in society about that female and whoever knows about her in whatever details, IF ONE KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT ISLAM will conclude, cannot make any one to act against such female. Specially when she has done nothing apparently objectionable on public places or roads.

Who certifies that all the persons that were allegating her, were very much noble. Is it a taboo, if one speaks against their character, for instance. I dont have any doubts over them but is there any certification? We cannot act against any one with such allegations except if its is proved as per Shariah. This is what required by Islam.

Jamia Hafsa by no way was supposed to take laws in their hands irrespective whatever has happened. I have one example for you Mr. Amir,

If some one abuses the other on road due to whatever reason and is killed by the other person for this ill-doing. Abusing some one is quite against Islam and social laws. Would this fact relieve the murderer from the punishment. Reply is "NO" because by no means he was supposed to take the law in hands. Then how Jamia students can do these acts theirselves. If police was not taking action against alegations, it was correct as per current law. Yes, if there was some lewdness or whatever on public places and police was not taking action then the complaintees should have gone to the court that is the way out in a good society and as per laws of Pakistan.

You seem to have knowledge about Islam and I appreciate it. But rigidity eliminates every good thought from the minds of the others. Whenever you would be using rigid words for others, people will start ignoring you or opt to leave the discussion, to get rid of your language which you use for others.

I know PRACS is a muslim thats why he was taking part in some discussion pertaining to Islam and Shariah. You cannot fit a cap on the thoughts and ideas of others. You critically asked about his religion. Are you the leaseholder of this religion. It is possible that you might be a better muslim than others and it is also possible that others might be better than you. No body asked you about your religion when you were discussing your issue pertaining to shariah dressings becoz it is understood that you are a muslim. My mail was an open discussion originally addressed to PRACS. You can, in response positively criticise this post but you have no right to use bitter words for me like

"Now your post Mr KamranACA i din't know that whether their is subject in ICAP's Criculm which teach students ethics....you are totally unethical and without knowing facts you started throwing all mud to ULEMAS(Moulvees)and Jamia's Students.....i say onething here that if any one trys to use abbusive words for ALLAH(S.W.T) so he may not do this because of other "Emanfull People of society" so by knowing this fact he start abusing for Moulvees ...........Infact lot of people who are i don't know at what darja(SCALE) of eman start abusing to SAHABA's(R.A.A), IMMAM'S, OWLIA'S and ULEMA'S .......so don't bother for others and don't bother for pakistan bother about your eman and bother about the words you posted here those words will be using as witness in Akhirrah and will susequently become an obstacle for you so please use words which are authentic and in good faith for your QABAR"

You took the names of SAHAABAS (Raziallah Talah) and IMAMS AND AULIYAAS (God bless them all). My previous mail did not relate to any of them and you have merely watered the plant grown by yor hands to prove me wrong. Do you co-relate these MAULVIES with such pure men of ALLAH. (Naoozbillah). There is no comparison and I dont appreciate using their names by you (in the above style) in this matter.

You know this stuff of MAULVIES and supposed MULVIES is a cause of my reaction about them. They think they are solely correct and all other world is incorrect. I again point out that I am not talking about real noble persons who dont make their earnings by using the name of Islam.

Whatever you have written in support of Jamia Hafsa's acts may even lead to conclude that the MAULVI SARWAR, who killed a female minister in recent days, did a very good job by taking law in his hand against a bad facet of social set-up (as per his opinion). This is ridiculous.

Mr. Amir, sometimes your words collide with each other which should also be revisited by you. You in the above post said

"yes you are right that 4 witness at the time of("Dukhool[enterance]") is necessery.............................so post here with authentic clauses don't make others fools...........and take care about yourself don't bother about such lewds"

You agree that my pointing out of what witness is required for proving ZANA is correct and even then you say that I should use authentic clauses and should not make fool of others. Pitty on you dear. What can I say. You agree that I am correct and then again You say I am fooling you. What the thing you are?

If you wrote it about that female, you must know that in my previous post I never supported her activities, if any. Ispecially mentione dit. I only criticised the Jamia students for taking laws in their hands. Yes, whatever such vague evidences may be available (as mentioned by you), one cannot on his/her own come on roads to do justice. Yes it was their prerogative to go to a court or to agitate agaisnt such a situation publicly.

You always mention indirectly about your knowledge about Islam, that why I feel You must be knowing a Hadees-e-Mubarika where a person came to the Prophet PBUH and admitted his sin. The prophet (PBUH) changed the direction of his (PBUH) face from him. He again came in front of the face of prophet (PBUH) and again admitted the sin. Prophet (PBUH) again changed the direction of face. He again came and repeated the same. Third time, Prophet (PBUH) listened him and then suggested punishment for him.

Prophet (PBUH) did it because he (PBUH) never wanted to listen the sin from him as one as a person has no right to intefere some one else's personal hidden life. God is SATTAAR and likes this quality. (It is also a Hadees). But when that person accepted his sin for the third time, he was punished, as he created un-ignorable witnessing.

This again confirms that Jamia Hafsa had no right to do what they have done.

I dont ask you and in fact have no right to ask you to dont respond to my posts, as it is a general forum. Still, I reuest you to be positive and dont use straight a way bitter language for others.

Yes, I am against the so-called Maulvies and I would always bring so many islamic proofs against them. (For a moment how this word MAULVI has evolved?) At the same time I have a greatest respect for the real noble men of GOD who dont call theirselves AALIM and who dont make livelihoods by using Islaam's name.

Best regards,

Kamran.

Muhammad Amir · 04-05-2007, 08:49 AM

My Dear Kamran Bhai as you were angry due to your interpertation of someone's act similarly i was angry on your second last post....my dear brother why are we so conservative in our openion why don't we try to realise those facts that were actually present.....dear lets think that if such type of woman is living in your area and even police can't do any thing for her activities now my question for you is that what will be your next course of action as you are KamranACA stating that probably you are ACA ...now please tell me what will you do if you go to her home and preach her that what ever you are doing is stictly prohibited in our society and religion..but subsequently she threats you...what will you do?????????????????.........my brother don't make openion for any one with pre mind set......i tell you one story i read it in some newspaper the coulmn of any moulana he wrote that when i went to Haram-e-makki...i saw a person clean shaved in pants and shirt and he was crying very much crying a praying in arabic moulana further wrote that i was only saying at that time A'men on all his prays ...................................So my dear brother he was comparing us with that man ...........i didn't say that if anyone who is wearing cap who is beared is moulvu......also you mentioned a name moulvi sarwar..it is to inform you that he is not a moulvu that was only the propaganda of government ........i personally respect your thoughts .....but you are too much aggresive on your "oponents(as you think for them they are)"....i am not taking side of any one but i am saying that "panchoo ungliann baraber nahi hoti" don't measure humanity in standard weights..... i know that lot of people are in wrong way but because of some people saying every one as you said that all moulvees..this is unjust.....i hope you be agreeing with me

Muhammad Amir · 04-05-2007, 09:10 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
You cannot fit a cap on the thoughts and ideas of others. You critically asked about his religion. Are you the leaseholder of this religion. It is possible that you might be a better muslim than others and it is also possible that others might be better than you.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ohhhhh my GOD i am not a leaseholder of islam........ I don't know whether you bleive or not in that Kamran Bhai i always think myself as a vert last lower level muslim then others i want to be humbal man always try to be very humbal but did you read all post of PRACS the terms he used were all of these are lawfull???Pracs is also my brother i also respect for his ideas and respect for participating in this issue........but some time this happens to us that we really mis understand one's point of view i invite you to check all my posts since begining in this thread and tell me that was there anything that makes pracs angry on me ...why he was so harsh on me??? yes i criticised GOODMAN but can you tell me that those stipulations that were used by GOODMAN were justfull.........don't he read my next appologies for any misunderstanding created by me or any one .....

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You seem to have knowledge about Islam and I appreciate it. But rigidity eliminates every good thought from the minds of the others. Whenever you would be using rigid words for others, people will start ignoring you or opt to leave the discussion, to get rid of your language which you use for others.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Absolutly agreed.................................I once again say absolutly agreed.................................yes rigidit always makes nothing good....but "Tali Hmaesha dono hathoon say bajti hay" as was happened there one post of GOODMAN and PRACS made all wrong for me infact some of your posts were very harsh.......i believe in onething that eaggeration/conservativeness should always be avoided but this doesn't mean that you started following musharraf's version of islam...do you agree

kamranACA · 04-05-2007, 07:25 PM

Dear Mr. Amir,

Thank you for your reply.

From maulvi, I so many times pointed out that, I dont quote the noble men of ALLAH who are really scholars, who are certified from Islamic Universities of Madina Munawara, Jamia-tul-azhar or from Other Islamic universities or quality institutions.

I refer, from the word MAULVI, the people who failed to do naything in their lives and opt the religion to earn the bread and butter.

You know the Holy Quran has cursed the guys who sell the holy verses against few coins (money). For a moment, who would be the guys selling the holy verses?????? The non-muslims???? In my view "NO". Because non-muslims normally dont know these verses. Further, no body will buy these verses from non muslims. I personally conclude that selling of holy verses is meant for muslims.

Secondly, what does mean by selling and buying the verses. Is it mean for publishing the Holy Books and selling them in the market for the general benefit of muslims. In my view, again "NO" it does not mean for publishers.

Then what does it mean. Yes, I can tell you what I feel. The guys who use the religion and these holy verses to make their livelihoods are meant by the Holy Quran. Have you ever seen in any village of Pakistan some MAULVI who recites the Holy Quran whole the night on a speaker and asks money from the village fellows for the KHIDMAT of MAULVI sahib. I have so many times seen them. If you deny, then we are living in fools paradise. Have you ever seen the so called ULEMAAs giving TAWEEZ GANDDAs etc (I dont mean the AAMALs, I personally saw so many so-called maulvies and aalims doing this) for money. Have u ever seen students of various DARSes (madrissa) begging for money from home to home. Yes I have seen so many times. They normally carry some Sparas of Holy Quran or other religious material and beg from the public. They are not the legal publishers, you know. They just beg. I saw them taking money even from those people who dont take the religious material from them. In most cases, this happens.

Now coming to big "ULEMAAs". Every big aalim has a jamaat or group. Every such jamaat is taking so much subscriptions and chandaas. Is this not happening in fiduciary capacity. Off course yes. Have you ever seen any such big jamaat getting its accounts audited by some reasonable firmof professional accountants? Have you ever got access to their published accounts? Never. Yes, off course never. Where all that public monies go. Who knows? No body bothers. And, these so called ULEMAAs are living in big bungalows. They are using big cars and jeeps. They have so many gun-men/body gaurds. From whom they are afraid of? Why they feel they are the best imposers of law. Who allowed them. All are just making monies. The Holy Book has cursed those who make mony using the name of Islam.

I know whatever u said and I understand your point of view. U r in fact not wrong so far as u support real noble people. U just fail to understand that about whom I am talking about.

Yes, now reply to your question

If such female would have been living in my street. How would I come to know what she is doing in side her home. Can I poke my nose in her home affairs? Does ISlam allows me. NO, certainly not. And yes, if her activities apparently tell me that what she is doing, then I should talk to other street fellows, we should talk to her family gently (it is allowed by islam in a good islamic society) then we have the option of police (if it is within its power) and then we have the option of courts. No one can say that courts do not take action against such people. No body can say it. I am from the family of advocates. My father and one elder brother are advocates and my chaachoo is bar at law. I know courts take action. You can see it. Even courts take action against governmennts irrespective of whatever our culture is. I refer the recent case of Pakistan Steel Mills where Court decided against the Government. I was somehow personally involved in this privatization deal and I know court is correct. I cant disclose more than it. In history it happened so many times. Justice Naseem Hassan Shah decided against the government in case of Nawaz Shareef.

One also has option of going to even Saharia Courts, where he can ask remedy to his problems. At the end , one has a best weapon i.e. media. One can use media against such people. Now a days GEO is running behind every one. Jamia could have gone to media.

There were 1000 options. But taking the law in hands was not an option. It is only rigidity of maulvies. Nothing else.

And finally in my case,if still courts also dont take action against her. Then I must be wrong and she must be right. At least apparently. In such case I should keep my path correct and avoid to think about such female and her family and strictly ask my family members and known fellows to avoid them.

This is what a lawful society requires.

I again say, by no means any one has to take the law in hands.

I place on record that from MAULVIES again I dont mean the noble men of ALLAH. You get outragious from the word MAULVI. Plz believe in Islam and live with Islam. Dont believe in MAULVIES and dont live in MAULVIES. Maulvies are not WALIALLAHs (talking about general category), they are not Imams. They normally make their livelihoods by using name of Islam. Did it happen in the era of Prophet PBUH? No, it never happened. Was it allowed during Khilafat-e-Rashida? No, it was not allowed. Eevery one was doing his business (Tijaarat or whatever) and religion was a religion. It was not the basis of earnings. In this case you cant quote those AALIMS who are government employees (as was practized in the era of Hazrat Umer Bin Khattaab Raziallah) and who take a stipend for the whole life services. They dont make big bungalows and BMWs from their stipends.

Mr. Amir, This is just one picture of MAULVIES which make me to talk this way about them. There are so many other faces and pictures which we can discuss.

For your knowledge I also point out that no one can legally use the words ACA with his name unless he is actually an ACA. Keep it in your record and mind.

Best regards,

Kamran.