7 din ki zindagi

kamranACA · 07-15-2007, 08:48 PM

Dear Coollioness,

I know there is no concept of boundries in Islam, still there had been a conclusive debate on ARY some one year back where a number of Ulemas agreed that one should go to the other country (not ruled by muslim government) for learning but not just for the sake of earning and making the other such place as his residential territory.

We all know what the circumstances are prevailing in USA and UK etc. Still people like you have made such countries their residential place and earning from these countries (non-muslims), working with number of non-muslims, liasioning with them and doing much more which may not be in accordance with the strict islamic concepts. Just trading or dealing with non-muslims is not prohibited but making such a country own residential area while you have ur own muslim government is not in accordance with Islam. You can see its impact on new generation of muslims at USA and UK if you have not closed your eyes. You have to comply their laws which of course would not be islamic in ur opinion. I wonder how such a great muslim like u is obeying non islamic laws.

One person said here that the best DARJA in eeman is to abstain the evil by hand. There are a number of evils in USA and UK. I wonder why great muslims like you who are not that ROSHAN KHAYAL dont stop it by ur hands. Just becoz u know they will crush u and through u out of their boundries which u of course cannot affoard. Are u not livinga restrained life in USA? Not? If not then why u dont like non-muslims tolivi free life in ur country? It is again dual policy. I dont call it MUNAAFQAT being the harsh words.

You are totally ignorant of laws of Pakistan and might be of other countries as well. Minorities and muslims in Pakistan as per our consititution have so many rights which are OKAYED by their religions and not by islam. I just quote one example, christians are allowed to trade (within licensed arrangement and within their community), keep, and use alcohol in pakistan while this is not allowed for muslims. Why? Just becoz as per their religion alcohol is not prohibited. What were you talking about UR HOME,

"(Bravo and three cheers to you. do you mean that non-muslims are allowed to do anythng in our country? Sorry i wont allow a non muslim to do ANYTHING, that contradicts with my beliefs, even in my own house)"

First of all as u said u live in USA then ur country is a non muslim country where every thing is allowed to non muslims and even to muslims which is not against its laws.

Secondly, if u deem pakistan as ur country then u are totally wrong and once again u r showing some extremist trend by saying above words. Constitution gives some extra rights to non muslims and u cannot deny it as I quoted an example in above para. If u will stop it by ur hands then why u dont have courage to stop it in USA where u r earning from them, living on their land, and obeying their laws with all modesty. What a dual policy u people have?

If u open mindedly and with open eyes study the back ground of creation of Pakistan, u will come to know that this country was not created/founded for mullahism. {do qaumi nazria did not mean to make pakistan only a mullah state} I have already made detailed discussions on it. You can study Mr. Jinnah's all the speeches and the opposition of Mullahs in making pakistan and u will come to know that rigidity in pakistan was never ever desired. Now if u say that Mr. Jinnah had nothing role and his opinions dont have weight then I cannot comment on ur rigidity.

When u deny IJMAH-e-UMMAT and just say that ghazi brothers and their fellows were muslims, this cannot absolve them from their illdoings. Anything about national level or pertaining to general masses have to be decided by IJMA-e-UMMAT and not by few guys as per their own mentality. One must not forget and mispain basic islamic procedures.

Every one now knows that there were ceratin students of jamia which were with Ghazi and certain which were feeling theirselves hostages. If u could be able to know how these students are taught and how much dependent they were on these ghazi brothers, ur opinion might have changed. Only that person can feel hisself hostage who might have some one outside the jamia waiting for him/her. Where one had no relative in the world, he/she was supposed to be with ghazies becoz he/she had no where to run. Further, in pakistan rigidity and jahaalat was not only confined to ghazies. Other people are also affected by it. You can see so many incidents at swat and shandoor valley where army men and general people are being killed by suicide bomb attackers.

Here who is killed? Muslims naa. Muslims are killed and muslims are killing. If this all is valid and is never commented upon by people like u and other supporters of ghazi brothers and rigid minds then how u can only criticise the killings by government. You said when ghazies acted upon their threats? You must reply what has ever been done by rigid maulvies and what is being done by their chailaas and chamchaas now. It is ridiculous that killing the terrorists is being criticised with all efforts but killings by terrorists is never commented upon. There comes so many locks to the tounges of people like u and u all feel it valid and correct action or reaction.

I can only pass a smile if anybody say that there were only 12-15 AK-47 in Jamia. This Rahseed Ghazi had been lying so many times. He said he made graves of 305 people in lala masjid. Was it a truth? Every one knows it is not a truth. He was a lier who said that only 12-15 AK-47 were inside. Even more than this number was seen on the road in their hands on first day of operaion when they were out of masjid. How they could have resisted so long with only 12-15 AK-47s. It is just a joke.

At the end, i calrify that law is to be implemented by law enforcers and not be me and u or lal masjid people. Make ur understaing clear please.

I know I cannot change ur mindset as it could have never been changed, however, I thought it appropriate to reply ur points.

Best regards,

Kamran.

Cool Lioness · 07-16-2007, 12:03 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 Dear Coollioness,

Kamran.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

First of all with all apologies, i want to rectify you that i no where said that i live in USA. i said i work in an american firm that can be any where. As far as where do i live is concerned i live in a Muslim country, where we have islamic laws. So i am following islamic laws only. Secondly the salary i am paid is from that Islamic country govt. Because the work we are doing here is basically given to us by govt. Thirdly 75% of my money goes into my bank account that is in Pakistan and there its been used only for the purposes carried out with in pakistan and no where outside.

I do not live in Pakistan doesnt mean that i do not know anything about my country. I am brought up in Pakistan and got all education there.

Now come to the point. I dont know where you are taking this topic. You have hardly answer to what i said. YOu are trying to prove me as an extremist. Well i dont mind untill i am on right.

About the hostages inside, as you very well said that it would be only felt by the people who were waiting outside etc etc..... first of all tell me, why these parents are putting so small kids (3yrs - 10 yrs) in madrissas and their hostels? Dont you think that our parents are just trying to shake off their responsibilities from their shoulders and throwing them on others???? Why my mother never asked us to go to Masjid for Quran kee taaleem? I remember my mother, my father, my naani and my daadi teaching us Quran and telling us the various incidents in islam and Quran. I have been seeing all of my family members from A to Z offering regular prayers and reciting Quran early morning. The point to tell you is that if you will go so deeply in to this matter then everyone is responsible for Lal Masjid and many other sad events directly or indirectly related to Mosques, Ulema's, Deeni Taleem and Muslims as whole. Sab se pehlay tou apnay ghar ka mahol theek karo.

"If u open mindedly and with open eyes study the back ground of creation of Pakistan, u will come to know that this country was not created/founded for mullahism. {do qaumi nazria did not mean to make pakistan only a mullah state}" Mr. my eyes are open (sight is 6/6, recently got checked) and mind is always ready to welcome the incoming traffic, i know what do qoumi nazria was. It no where says Mullahs but it doesnt draw any line betweeen Mullahs and other muslims. It says Muslims as whole. Mullah's are also included. Yeh tou tha aap kee baat ka jawaab. Now tell me why you feel Mullah's from some other part of Universe? You are using word Mullah as Godforbid its an abuse or something. Dont you think you need to open your eyes and mind too????

I am not at all saying that i am in favor of Mullah's or their way of teaching. But Mr. not all fingers are alike. I always opposed the Sakhthi or enforcement in Islamic education practised by some of our Molvies in Mosques. I am only talking about the ones i had seen in my street and i did not liked their way. Its such a soft religion that you do not need to impose it on someone. But sab aik jaise nahin hotay. If talk about Ghazi brothers and their students then i told you that punishment for them was not death. They were not terrorists. Again i will ask you that who knows that they had been trying to talk to govt in peaceful ways. Demand to reconstruct 7 Mosques was not something out of the world demand. If govt can pass budget of 2500 carores to construct a new GHQ in islamabad (which is of no use and not needed) then why not few lacs on mosques? Humari Govt tou Modern Islam laanay ke chakron mein hai. And in this try she is crossing the limits. I dont know but i heard some one telling me that Mr. Musharaf had passed a bill about Zana thats completely against Islam and against the will of Public. I need to study on that so i wont say much on this issue.

I strongly condemned Silence Operation. I wish someday, someone (may be a real terrorist)should kidnap Mr Musharaf and his family and then do Muzakraath with his chamchaas outside. During all these days of Muzakraath, No water, No electricty, No food is provided to him. Then I will see what he and his chamchass (Roshan khiyaal and Patriot Pakistanis) will do to save his life. Then they will accept all jaaiz and najaaiz demands from those terrorists. Or am i wrong??? I wish i could have given this idea to Ghazi brothers [)]

"You are totally ignorant of laws of Pakistan" I have been a student of Political Science. where i have not only read Pakistan Laws and constituition but USA, Britain, Switzerland and some other countries too.

"Constitution gives some extra rights to non muslims and u cannot deny it as I quoted an example in above para. If u will stop it by ur hands then why u dont have courage to stop it in USA where u r earning from them, living on their land, and obeying their laws with all modesty. What a dual policy u people have?" Oh God what are you talking about? I was talking about my home. i said i wont allow any non muslim doing something that can effect or contradict with my believes. LIke if a non muslim lady comes out infront of my family member in some objectionable dress, YEs i am going to tell her that Kinldy do not wear such dress in my home when you are sitting between all of us. do it in your room premises. jahan taq baat hai stop the evil in USA then i do not have any right to do that openly. Thats their country, their laws. Meray aik ke liye sab badalnay se tou rahay. But i can do it in my country. right?

"Secondly, if u deem pakistan as ur country then u are totally wrong and once again u r showing some extremist" Loo jee extremist mein hoowi ke aap. Pakistan is my birth country and you are saying its not mine. Just coz i am against govt silence operation? [(]

At the end, i calrify that law is to be implemented by law enforcers and not be me and u or lal masjid people. Make ur understaing clear please. Do you live in Pakistan? if yes then can you give me one single example of a law thats being really implemented by our Law enforcers?

"I know I cannot change ur mindset as it could have never been changed," No you are most welcome to try on me with new ideas and showing me things with new angles because i really do have a Roshan Khiyaal mind. I cannot deny the truth [)] But dont mind, my advice, that may be you have to be a little more , i said little more, i know you are already a very open minded person, but still 19 - 20 ka faraq hai, try to be realistic and not only roshan khiyaal. See the things that can take you and your nation towards betterment. Agressive attitude specailly from govt can never be appreciated. One more thing what ever i said above , dill par matt lay dost [D]

kamranACA · 07-16-2007, 07:32 PM

Dear Coollioness,

There is nothing to be taken on DIL. I appreciate ur above post which really reflected you to be somewhat agreeable to the facts.

I regret for misunderstanding that concluded u to be living at USA. However, its not just about u and I. You must have heard about HSMP (highly skilled migrant programme). You know thousands of young people are trying by all means to get into the advanced countries. For this, they prepare fictitious salary certificates, bank statements, false experience certificates and even false income tax returns. I agree to u that in Pakistan so many laws are not being followed in true sence, so every thing happens and so much is prepared fictitiously. (However, still it does not make it our responsibility to implement these laws by our own. We can do so much which I will shortly discuss in succeeding paras).

This way and also by means of legal assylum, so many of us are migrating every day without considering what would be the ultimate impact on our lives, our kids, whole next generation, our social responisbilities and upcoming moral obligations. When I said that evil is evil at USA, UK as well as Pakistan, it was meant for such people who deliver big speeches here in Pakistan but in advanced countries their generation goes to the dancing clubs, casinos, bars and brothels and lives with jews and christians even without marrying. You clarified that you are living in some muslim country so obviously I was wrong on my words and being a realistic person I regret it.

You said in ur post-

"I know what do qoumi nazria was. It no where says Mullahs but it doesnt draw any line betweeen Mullahs and other muslims. It says Muslims as whole. Mullah's are also included. Yeh tou tha aap kee baat ka jawaab. Now tell me why you feel Mullah's from some other part of Universe? You are using word Mullah as Godforbid its an abuse or something. Dont you think you need to open your eyes and mind too????"

I again conclude that even after studying political sience, you dont have grip on the basic concepts of ur/our Quaid-e-Azam, Mr. Jinnah. I once in my earlier post quoted the words of Mr. Jinnah which he used in his speech after creation of Pakistan. These may not be the exact words but can serve the purpose. He said, "Oh people of Pakistan we (he, I think used the words "muslims league") succeeded in creating a new country for you where you have gotten rid of britsih, hindus and mullahs".

The line between Mullahs and muslims is not drawn by me. It was drawn by the founders of Pakistan. I requested you to study the back ground which u have ignored. Discuss this matter with people like Justice Javed Iqbal son of Sir Allama Muhammad Iqbal and you will get some clarification. Mullahs are of course included in muslims, but Pakistan was not supposed to be a place for them to get flourished and by all the hard luck they have flourished too much in this intended peaceful country. The major contributors in their flourishing had been people like Ex-President Zia-ul-Haq who always tried to hide behind the Mullahs and nation was always decieved by using the name of Islam.

You must know people dont much like Mullahs to be in power generally but being the innocent muslims they always concieve them to be on right path and this hides so much about their acts. People have been rejecting these mullahs in almost all elections since the outset and it must be amazing that big Mullahs even lost their own seats in so many elections. I dont quote the last election and its results that was purely a drama of Musharraf strategy to show USA the increasing demand and trend of Mullahism in Pakistan just for the sake of justifying his prolonged unform governance.

You said in ur post-

"I am not at all saying that i am in favor of Mullah's or their way of teaching. But Mr. not all fingers are alike. I always opposed the Sakhthi or enforcement in Islamic education practised by some of our Molvies in Mosques. I am only talking about the ones i had seen in my street and i did not liked their way. Its such a soft religion that you do not need to impose it on someone."

I appreciate the above words from you and am agreed that all fingers are not alike. You will agree that there is really a line between nobality and mullahism. Islam requires modesty, nobality, character, courage, forbearance and compliance with Sharia. It does not, however, require Mullahism. This is just to understand and if we dont try to understand we will never get to know the difference.

You said-

"If talk about Ghazi brothers and their students then i told you that punishment for them was not death. They were not terrorists. Again i will ask you that who knows that they had been trying to talk to govt in peaceful ways. Demand to reconstruct 7 Mosques was not something out of the world demand."

I totally agree to u that this demand was not out of the world demand. However, Ghazi and his fellows have not been operated due to this demand only. They had never been talking to government peacefully. They by force occupied the libray, by force kidnapped the so-called Aunti Shamim, police officers, chinese guys etc. I dont appreciate any brothel Naoozbillah, but still it was not their duty to do it by their hands. (**See para below). They used guns against rangers/army, they made MORCHAs in mosque, they had big reserve of ammunition in mosque, they excalimed to have stored food for three months which must not be without any bad intent (ur comments about water and food etc are baseless, they said they have reserve of three months. Now I dont know it was true or false), they fired out government property, building and vehicles, they used heavy ammunition for seven days without surrendering, they rejected all government offers and were openly challenging its writ on media, they made the kids and even some of their parents as their hostages and much much more. I wonder how u say that they were not the terrorists. I dont agree to ur above statement to this extent and in my view they were fully trained terrorists. What else should be there to make a person a terrorist or extremist.

**I once again will say that people generally lack the knowledge about laws. Ghazies said that police was not taking action against such brothel. {I agree that the new law of women rights is not as per Islam but I also point out that even the previous Hadood law was not as per Islam. For God sake study both texts and analyse the reality. This has been discussed at length so I dont go into details.} As per new law it is not the power of police to penetrate anyone's home unless some open lewdness is witnessed. Yes, off course there was a way out that is the part of new law. They should have gone to court, should have recorded their witnesses in the court (that is required by Sharia even), should have got the courts orders for inquiry or arrest of such malpracticing people and then police could have never denied to such orders. This was the way out and in my sole view it is not at all impracticable. Ghazies did not bother to follow the law and did all the terror they could have done. This was by no means their duty. As per Islam just knowing that some zana has been happened cannot be treated as a witness and an allegation from such a witness can even call for the application of Qazaf law against such witness. We had to follow Islam and not our own perceptions.

You said-

"jahan taq baat hai stop the evil in USA then i do not have any right to do that openly. Thats their country, their laws. Meray aik ke liye sab badalnay se tou rahay. But i can do it in my country. right?"

When we quote the Hadees about stopping the evil and various levels of faith in doing so, there comes no stipulation to do this only in our country or only in a muslim country. Plz go back to the text of Hadees and make ur understanding clear. If you live at USA you have to follow this hadees. It's not just the question of a specific country. Islam is Islam every where. Why one will not do such terrorism in USA? Becoz he/she knows that in a lawful society these responsibilities are vested with the government and specially at such a country law enforcers will crush him/her as they have no fear of public misguiding by Mullahism in their own country. Why one finds it expedient to do it in Pakistan even in the presence of muslim rulers and all the required laws? Just becoz such people know that here law enforcement is in-effective and they will be rarely asked for their acts based upon the self-developed idealogy. You were right in saying that law is not properly enforced. Thats why people like Ghazies emerge on the screens of media.

At the end I can just hope for a better future for Pakistan as well as muslims and pray for the peaceful resolution of all the conflictice issues among the muslim Ummah. I personally condemn all the terrorism being done at Swat, D.I.Khan and other parts of Pakistan and wish to see all such ugly faces behind the bars.

Best regards,

Kamran.

Cool Lioness · 07-16-2007, 11:05 PM

[quote]Originally posted by kamranACA
 Mohtaram Kamran Sahib,

Yeh discussion tou bohat lambee ho gaiee hai. Seems like it will not reach any conclusion. But still i hope that we reach to a point where we both come up with a solution thats agreeable to both of us. Agar hum 2 bhi kissi aik nateejay par na pohanchay tou how can we expect from Ghazi brothers and Govt (and many more such cases) to agree on something similar. he na?

I am dead tired after spending few hectic hours in office but still want to comment on some of your points. (zahir hai mun kaisay band ho sakta hai mera [)])

There is nothing to be taken on DIL. I appreciate ur above post which really reflected you to be somewhat agreeable to the facts. Ok good that means now its your turn to agree with me on some of the points.

I agree to u that in Pakistan so many laws are not being followed in true sence ( So many nahin, there is no law at all.),
(However, still it does not make it our responsibility to implement these laws by our own (Then what should we do? Dont expect anything from Govt.)

This way and also by means of legal assylum, so many of us are migrating every day without considering what would be the ultimate impact on our lives, our kids, whole next generation, our social responisbilities and upcoming moral obligations (Agar humari qoum itna sochthi tou yeh haal hota aaj?).

I was wrong on my words and being a realistic person I regret it.(Good i like this.)

He said, "Oh people of Pakistan we (he, I think used the words "muslims league") succeeded in creating a new country for you where you have gotten rid of britsih, hindus and mullahs". I will be grateful to you if you can provide me with exact wordings of Mr. Jinah. Because personally i do not like discrimination. I donot have some speciall effection with Mullahs but i feel they are humans too and above all Muslims. Few mullahs ke liye sab ko ghalat kehna jahalat ho gi.

The line between Mullahs and muslims is not drawn by me. It was drawn by the founders of Pakistan ( I need to check on it. Thats why i need your help. Where did you read it?).

Mullahs are of course included in muslims, but Pakistan was not supposed to be a place for them to get flourished and by all the hard luck they have flourished too much in this intended peaceful country ( You seem to be extremely against Mullah's. Thats why you are seeing them all with one eye. That is a wrong attitude of life. I advice you, you better work on this. You are talking about them like they are god forbid Achoot. If you will talk in this way then what is the difference between you and an Extremist)

You will agree that there is really a line between nobality and mullahism ( Mullahism.... a new word to me. its so easy to create a sector). Islam requires modesty, nobality, character, courage, forbearance and compliance with Sharia ( yes islam ask you to be tolerant, patient , open minded and forgiving too.) It does not, however, require Mullahism. This is just to understand and if we dont try to understand we will never get to know the difference. (Now i want to know from you How do you define a Mullah?)

I totally agree to u that this demand was not out of the world demand. However, Ghazi and his fellows have not been operated due to this demand only (Pehli demand tou yehi thi na. Govt maan jaathi tou Operation kee nobat hi na aati). They had never been talking to government peacefully ( and how you are so sure?). They by force occupied the libray, by force kidnapped the so-called Aunti Shamim , police officers, chinese guys etc.

If you live at USA you have to follow this hadees. It's not just the question of a specific country. Islam is Islam every where. Yes islam is islam every where. i agree with you. But why dont you think in this way that it means that even if you are in a non-muslim country, you should practise what your religion require or expect from you. Like keep your body covered, say your prayers at right time. Fast during month of Ramadan and many more obligations towards our religion. It never says that just start fighting with a Christian or Hindu Or Jew in his own country that why he/she is wondering around in half clothes or eating infront of you in Ramadan. You dont have any right to do this. Yes you can attract them with your pracitses. with your actions. They should feel something special about you that this person is different. Its also a good deed and highly appereciatable one. A Small example from my personal life, as i told you i work in a foreign firm. You believe me or not, i am the only one Pakistani girl here, who comes in her National dress, Qameez Shalwar and Dopatta. I have many muslims girl around me, not from Pakistan though, but they all come in a dress that you can say is objectionable. A Romnian Christian girl, who usually comes in short skirts, and deep necks, came to office in long shirt and loose pants and i could see a scarf too around her neck. I was so astonished to see her in that dress. She said she loves my dress therefore she wanted to copy me. She added that it is so elegant and comfortable dress. Same once while going to prayer room, a Chirstian Indian lady asked me if she can see me while praying? I said sure why not. So the point is that stop the evil by hand is applied where it is war situation. You are confronted with a situation where you do not have any other option except to use your hands or weapons. You must have heard one more Hadees or Ayat ( i m sorry i am confused), the meaning goes like, If you see that the company where you are sitting are talking about something evil or bad, just leave that company, and walk away." yeh thouri ke maar pitaiee start kar do.

At the end I can just hope for a better future for Pakistan as well as muslims and pray for the peaceful resolution of all the conflictice issues among the muslim Ummah. I personally condemn all the terrorism being done at Swat, D.I.Khan and other parts of Pakistan and wish to see all such ugly faces behind the bars. (ok now you are talking sane and wise and indifferent too. Thats far better approach.

I feel that every individual of Pakistan should fulfill their duties and responsiblities. And as far as i can see the biggest responsibilities on one's shoulder is to educate your people. Make them aware of the true facts. Drwa a line between right and wrong. People around you, like your family, friends, colleagues etc. With your own actions try to bring a difference in their lives. Zor zabardasti se kuch bhi nahin hota except that you will waste your energy.

Regards

kamranACA · 07-17-2007, 05:34 PM

Dear Coollioness,

(It wud be better if u tell ur name than this nick)

In ur above post I think we are almost agreed on first four points except for that I feel there is an acute defficiency of law implementation in Pakistan while u feel that there is no law at all in Pakistan. I think we should give a room to cover any mistake that might have been made in our assessment.

You asked that what should we do if government is not implementing laws. In my view, if in any specific case we need the help of law and enforecers are not helping us then we should move a writ or file a petition through court and it is now very common in Pakistan. Even no FIR is normally recorded by police unless court orders the police. You may or may not agree but I have witnessed it so many times since my brother is a lawyer and I am used to see so many such cases where he/his associates get court orders for their clients to get their rights even through police. Although it may cause some difficulty but is really a good way to get the rights. You would appreciate to hear that last day a court of law in Pakistan has ordered an AC MANUFACTURING COMPANY, on the petition of a customer of such company, to pay him a fine of 52,000 Rupees along with an afresh replacement of his Split AC Unit becoz the customer applied to the court for such orders and proved the fault of the AC MANUFACTURING COMPANY in the court. Hearing of this decision on radio of my car while I was driving back to home gave me immense satisfaction and pleasure and a sigh of relief as well. After all one can get justice in Pakistan.

You said-

"It never says that just start fighting with a Christian or Hindu Or Jew in his own country that why he/she is wondering around in half clothes or eating infront of you in Ramadan. You dont have any right to do this. Yes you can attract them with your pracitses. with your actions. They should feel something special about you that this person is different."

You further said-

"So the point is that stop the evil by hand is applied where it is war situation. You are confronted with a situation where you do not have any other option except to use your hands or weapons. You must have heard one more Hadees or Ayat ( i m sorry i am confused), the meaning goes like, If you see that the company where you are sitting are talking about something evil or bad, just leave that company, and walk away." yeh thouri ke maar pitaiee start kar do."

So,

When I pointed out that evil is evil even in USA, it never meant that one living at USA should attck on any one just to stop the evil. I actually wanted to give u a comparison that if in this advanced world one should and cannot do it in USA, he/she must not do or think to do it even in Pakistan or any other home country by his/her own hands. There are a number of legal ways to fullfil this hadees. Again I stress that there might be a defficiency of law implementation still, one can get the justice. By adopting a legal way out, if some one succeeds in stoping some evil, he fully comply's the requirement of the Hadees. Using the available sources means for stoping the evil by hand. And even if one fails to stop the evil by adopting all possible measures, his intent has to be judged by God. This is what we believe. All acts are based upon the intents. However, picking up weapons against the government and its agencies should by no means be appreciated and doing anything like that would make any one a terrorist. Have you any doubt? If you have then we need not to discuss this issue any more since I said I cannot change any one's mindset.

You talked about the mosques in Islamabad. In an interview at Capital Talk of GEO, Ejaz-ul-Haq, Minister, said that new mosques have been constructed on various places to replace the Shaheed Mosques. Now, I dont personally know that whether or not he was true but I noticed that no one in that talk show challenged his statement. If we call him untrue then how can we call Ghazies true while we are sitting at far off distances and dont know what has been so far done on ground.

Whether or not Ghazi talked to government peacefully is a very open matter. We were used to hear Ghazi on media every day during this operation and we know from which point he was talking and what a rigid behaviour he was showing. Still, I dont much appreciate government's killings in this operation. I only condemn the individuals who did not surrender against government and kept on firing on its army. I for the moment leave all other things. Lives could have been saved if the issue was supposed to be resolved by the Ghazies. Since we have given all of our remarks and viewpoint on this issue, it would be purpose-less to talk on it any further. Becoz in my view it will not fetch any agreement between two mindsets. One mindset requires government to have surrendered and other mindset thinks that terrorists should have surrendred. Decision should be left on judgement day. After all every one including me have to face the judgment day. May God bless us all.

Now coming to ur point about Mullahism. It's just a matter of messing up the things and complicating the very straightforward concept. Mullah's definition, you might get from some dictionery or other reference book but as far as myself is concerned I feel a person as Mullah if he is (these are only few points)

- rigid,

- closed minded,

- very much restricted,

- lacks knolwedge and wisdom and views the religion in extremely narrow vision,

- feels every one to be murderable if he/she dont comply his ideas,

- uses public moneies and resources for his/their own purposes, (and sells holy verses for few coins, as pointed out in Holy Quran)

- even in peaceful environment carries/carry huge ammunition and body gaurds,

- get so much CHANDDAs to run his/their objectives and never publishes their/his financials for those who entrusted their moneies in fiduciary capacity,

- is not agreebale to any point of conclusion without any basis and always wishes to talk with guns and fires or;

- at least threat the others with their so-called force (as being done in Swat and D I KHAN),

- were basically against the creation of Pakistan and afterwards always tried to penetrate into its affairs

- always wish to create their own systems and courts and procedures independent of the government,

- never come up with wise strategies and always talk about impracticable methodologies.

There might be a number of persons who dont differentiate Mullahs from MOMENEEN and NOBLE UMELAs. This is every one's right to have faith on or believe whatever he deems most appropriate. I dont have to change any one's belief and am happy to preserve my own belief which I have, keeping in my view by all means that I am answerable to ALLAH for all of my deeds and I take responsibility for my above words.

As far as Mr. Jinnah's statement is concerned, I read it in some article and also heard it from Mr. Justice Retired Javed Iqbal (Son of Sir Allama Muhammad Iqbal). I would try to locate the exact date and venue of this speech for you but do not ensure to provide the same as it requires to visit library which now a days is not practicable for me. You can have contact with me on this forum or on

[email protected]

and I, if possible, will try to do the needful. However, you can also search it by locating Mr. Jinnah's main speeches after the creation of Pakistan.

It's very good, if due to your attitude, some of non-muslims have corrected their way out of life. I really appreciate it.

Best regards,

Kamran.

Cool Lioness · 07-17-2007, 06:01 PM

Ok Mr Kamran, this is good that atleast we have agreed on some of the points. AS far as our law and its implementation is concerned, i can just pray that we could have a real good stable system in this respect. Where the law rules and controls the whole country and not a group of politicians.

I did not know the definition of Mullah. I thought Mullah is like a Moulvi in Mosque. We have good Moulvies and bad Moulvies. Anyway my mother tongue is not Urdu or Punjabi. I will keep this definition in mind now onwards.

Yes i know this discussion is not going to be ended in few days. But my request is do not call them terrorist. Our govt is infront of you. They are also not Doodh ke Dhullay. Calling these guys terrorists will spoil our image more. They commit a mistake and Govt made a bigger mistake in response. Yes you are right they will be accounted for their deeds and intentions infront of Ultimate Soverign Power on dooms day. You know the thing that pinches me more is that why no one thought about the Mosque's Taqaddus? Its was such an old and famous mosque of Pakistan [(] .

Anyways jo hoowa so hooowa but acha nahin hoowa.

Regards

kamranACA · 07-17-2007, 06:48 PM

Dear Coollioness,

I very much apreciate your love and respect for mosques, religion and nobality. You must have been brought up by very sincere and noble parents. Your attitude shows your background and I cant stop myself appreciating the efforts of your parents in promoting religious interest in yourself.

The whole of above discussion was specific between me and you on this general forum since we dont have direct contacts. Therefore, it should not hurt any one else and I hereby confirm that I dont infact want to hurt anybody's religious feelings. My intention was only to put some realities in front of you, which I believe as realities.

No body knows how much I was disappointed on the death of Rasheed Ghazi and this whole incident. I wished he would have surrendered. He was a very moderate and understandable person. He always tried for the reconciliations except for LAST INCIDENTS. His brother never accepted his submissions and on the orders of his mother he always followed his brother's strategy. I still remember his eyes which always represented him a soft, nice, loving, accomodating and agreeable man. I wonder why this all happened and I seriously doubt Rasheed Ghazi has been used by some hidden hands to show off this whole theatre.

However, in my view whoever challenges goverments writ and takes the law in his hands has to face such results. It is crual but it is real. We have pain for this but we have to accept what is real.

I totally agree that whatever has happened has not been happened good and I dont apreciate the killings by government although I feel it was government's limitation.

Best regards,

Kamran.