AUNTI MAULANA ABDUL-AZEEZ - INCIDENT OF SHAME

Cool Lioness · 07-30-2007, 10:18 PM

I know there are number of innocent pathans as well but the issue is that if some nation or some one on behalf of such nation has to claim its purity as a whole nation, then it should be pure as whole nation. Good and bad exist every where, I totally agree. The problems of pathans is that they exclaim to be the purist as a whole nation, but so much is at extreme in this nation. I see no other qoum/sub-qoum has such a big exclaimation of purity and being on right path, as much my own qoum has. Now where did you get this information from? I dont remember myself claiming that i am the purist among all of you? I am using "I" coz i am a pure pathan and direct from NWFP. I myself is representing my nation. I wont say that all of the good muslims only exist in my nation. Of course good muslims are every where, Punjab Sindh or Balochistan and even outside pakistan. But may be the ratio of practising muslims in pathan qoum are a bit more then others. I am not saying it coz i think so, i am saying it coz i see so. In Lahore or Karachi how many people go to street Mosques to offer the regular prayers? Count them, and come to a street mosque in any city of NWFP. I can bet you will get the difference of half and half. Mr. Kamran jiss group of people kee aap baat kar rahay ho unhain tou unnki apni qoum accept nahin karthi. Do you think i will ever support or appreicate a gay Pathan. I wont do it for any muslim regardless where he belongs from. If you know that gay is something Anti Islamic then does your mind accept that Pathans, the practising muslims would accept them in any way or any form? And do you think that this Gay group only exists in this nation? Dont you think you are giving a very unfair statement? Aur yeh ratio internet par kahan se kis ne dee ho gi? Pakistan mein Aids kee actual ratio aaj taq nahin pata chalee coz over here these subjects are not discussed openly since its an islamic country and in islam extra sexual life is highly prohibted. Aids should have not entered to our country at first place. SAme case goes for illegal abortions. When such basic and important information is kept hidden then how can i believe in any ratio about the gay society in pakistan? And if you bring this ratio thing then i can also ask you to check the ratios of divorces, rape cases, kidnapes, family murders, revenge murders and tell us that which nation is leading.

By the way if you think that majority of this nation is playing diplomatic role, then its better to either kill all of them with a bomb or divide the country once again. Let this province be a separate country. But i wonder if this would be the solution? Coz if it happens so, and still you had these terrorism and extremism then whom you would call responsible for?

I think we better not bring this Hindu Muslim type of dispute in between this discussion. I am sorry that you have been living among those pathans whom atleast we do not know as pathans.

kamranACA · 07-30-2007, 11:23 PM

Dear Coollioness,

I no where said that you are the one who exclaim the things about this nation. I never talk about dividing my nation. I never wanted to disheart or degrade any nation. I agreed to you that good and bad exist every where. My point was only to say that we should not mention or prefer any specific nation over the other just becoz of our own conclusions without seeing what is going on in that specific society.

I know cases like Mukhtaran Maai had happened in Punjab but we normally dont take pride that people living in this specific area are very noble and are better than others. The only comments about my own nation were becoz generally so many of us conclude that they are very much islamic. I know they are very strict on some issues of Namaz and Roza but in general dealings, in spreading drugs, sexual perversions, decieving the others, keeping their kids away from education, always quarreling on tiny issues, involving theirselves in smuggling, always talking about being deprived of without making special efforts, unfairly and illegally trading the ammunition etc etc are those issues which they normally do not generally consider inappropriate in their own culture. I dont appreciate killing of any one by any one without any reason and without invoking justice, if there is any such allegation on any one living in any area of Pakistan.

The people of NWFP in general feel theirselves the only gaurdians of Islam and many of them (NOT ALL) take the others as DUSHMANAAN-E-DEEN. You can simply compare the behaviours of Ulema of NWFP with other parts of Pakistan. The main reason you have already assessed at your own is the lack of education. I agreed that government should enhance facilities and education oppurtunities in these areas so that illiteracy could be reduced.

What I said was a reality based upon research papers which are also available on internet. I did not mention any ratio in my posts. I also know that gay clubs and brothels also exist in Karachi and Lahore. I never denied the truth. However, we dont give such a priority or emphasis to the people living at Karachi and Lahore as much we give to the people living in NWFP. The majority of the Pakistanies are Muslims. Majority has fear of Allah and are moderatly good muslims. Some are really at the level of WALAAIT. So many ULEMA-e-KARAM are of course included in this category of muslims. I have full respect for all the noble men of Allah wherever they live and whether or not known to me. May God always bless them and make us to follow them.

I dont have any pride for myself or claim for myself for being better than any one else. I feel myself a sinful human who always seek forgivness from ALLAH and who request for prayers to all his muslim brothers for his improvement. This is by no way a proud statement. My problem is that so many times my ideas are interpretted wrongly. This discussion was started about the extremists who are involved in bomb attacks and who are basically related to NWFP. This specific category was covered in our initial discussion and my comments were mainly about them. The discussion of pathan qoum as a whole was to show the piture of bads in NWFP that is normally considered the fort of Islam in Pakistan. Of course I agree to you that all the population is not bad. Good and bad exist in every society. We have to base our conclusions keeping our steps on the mid ways. I offer my regrets for anything where I appeared to be one sided but actually I never made my mindset to become irrational. If you feel hurt from my comments about pathan qoum you should also know that I am also pathan like you. However, I dont want to push up my nation just becoz of qoum parasti. Here I dont think you as a qoum parast so dont take it in wrong means. We should talk justifyably without favoring any one.

Still, if you are hurt, being your basic human right, I offer my regrets to you. But please never talk about division of our nation. We can fight, we can be harsh with each other, we can differ in opinions, but we are brothers and sisters and we have to live altogether for ever. I normally dont become personalized with others as I know that eventually we are brothers and sisters and any dispute is just like our disputes in a home. We cannot and should not divide our home.

Best regards,

Kamran.

Cool Lioness · 07-30-2007, 11:43 PM

[quote]Originally posted by kamranACA
Yes to tell you truth i a was badly hurt. Anyway leave this thing. I am fine now.

Few days back while i was thinking about all these discussions that we do at this forum, specially about terrorism, i got one thought that there is a possibility that Afghanistan is directly involved in this war. If we go back and see the political history of Afghanistan and Pakistan, Pakistan was the one preparing a force against USSR which is now called Talibans. At that time we and USA gave them full support. But after 9/11 incident when USA was badly and madly looking for OSAMA, Pakistan gave her support (gave her air bases) to attack on Afghanistan. I think Afhganistan's people and especially Talibans got much hurt for Pakistan's step agaisnt them. And look US army is still there killing talibans and other innocent citizens too. There is war situation in Afghanistan. Dont you think that they can take a revenge from us by bringing the same trouble to our country?

kamranACA · 07-31-2007, 12:34 AM

Dear,

This would again be a very long story to be discussed and may cause so manys to feel hurt. The Talibaans might be the innocents but they were built for kill. Built by USA through Pakistani hands. Indirectly built by Yahood-o-Nasara for their purposes. Our nation was/is illiterate, innocent and emotional. They have always been used as such on the name of Islam. They still wish to do what others want them to do and they feel it to be best practice of Islam. Like-wise the people fighting in Kashmir were fully supported by the then governments, army and ISI. USA had been closing its eyes on Kashmir issue as Pakistan was fullfiling its purposes at Afghanistan. USA has caused the independence on eastern taimor in Indonesia becoz it is christian majority at there, but for Kashmir USA treatment is not similar. Reasons we all know.

Still so many dont believe in education, social/economic and financial development, research, technical advancement and other things like that. They feel proper islam is to destruct every thing with whatever comes in the hands.

They still feel that proceeding towards China for education was purposed to get DEENI taleem while at the time of delivery of this order the biggest/greatest deenee taleem was avaialbale only in MAKKAH MUKARMA AND MADINA MUNAWRA. Which deeni taleem was available at China at that time and even in later days until now. We just beat about the bushes. We dont still use mind and are so much rigid to our baseless ideas. People use us for their purposes and who-ever among us want to clarify the position are called kafir and what not and what not.

USA built and used Mujahedeen for their purposes. Naoozbillah our leaders directly and nation indirectly so much followed the faith travelled to them from Raigon, Bush senior, Clinton and Bush junior. We dont follow our Imam-e-Karam and their educations. Our Fiqah (Naoozbillah) infact had been what defined by USA.

A product was prepared, used till its eficiency and productivity, (unfortunately our Mujahedeen were indirectly working for USA and its long sighted objectives) and after taking its benefits for their purposes, the prduct has been decided to be discarded. The manufacturer of a product can destruct it, recycle it and abondon it whenever so desired. The issue is why we or some of us became that product. We are still wishing to do so and we are doing it by lal masjid operation on one hand and by suicidal attacks on the other hand. These are crual words but are real words. In my perception at least.

We still dont understand it and are feeling that this TORA BORA or WAZEERISTAN will be the biggest place for us to fight against so-called KUFAR (our own muslims and not americans) and this would eventually bring prosperity and ultimate success to Islam. Pitty on us and on our understanding and conclusions.

God has never changed the conditions of those who dont endeavor to change it at their own. And believe you me this condition cannot be changed using the way we are adopting now a days.

I am a Pakistani and am full supporter of the existence and independence of this country. Afghanistan and every other country comes after Pakistan for me. Whoever (country), due to whatever reason, if attacks on Pakistan or has enemity with Pakistan, we should and we will make every effort to destroy that country or abstain that country from our enemity. I have full sympathies with Afghanistan but I cannot support their enemity with Pakistan. Yes, wrong doings have been done on both sides. If Pakistan is not an angel the Afghanistan is also not an angel. Every one has been doing so much wrong in history and is responsible for current situation. Why we announce threats to developed nations without making a place for us in this powerful political and genuine war. Weak should attain power before challenging the powerful. This is what the west has done. Otherwise what is doubt in the consequences and ultimate outcome. Can we be so much irrational? You see we are.

However, all the issues should have been settled down peacefully. We cannot get back to the position of 1947. We have to live with the situations prevailing in 2007. We dont have to beat the snakelines. We should look forward and make every effort for the safety of Pakistan. We should also play a positive role for resolution of disputes among Islamic world and unity for the Islamic cause.

Best regards,

Kamran.

Muhammad Amir · 08-01-2007, 03:07 PM

Well Mr Kamran I know It is going to be futile but being my muslim brother i need to clarify something here for you....

And remember one thing that i never decleared anyone as KAFIR, I am not a leaseholder of Islam who can decleare any one as Kafir(Naozubillah)...

Yeh Report my ny bohot mehnat say type ki hay please isko pora read karain a humbal request to all members.

There is a report in my hands named as "DEOBANDI ISLAM THE RELIGION OF TALIBAN" this report has not been written by any mullah or taliban it has been published by DEFENSE LANGAUGE INSTITUTE from wrc.lingnet.org I also have some reports of "MULLAHS" but i think you will not believe init and before going to pros and cons of this report i want to quote Shaikh OSAMA BIN LADEN(Hifzullah) here "AFGHANISTAN is the only country in the world with a real Islamic system.All muslims should show loyalty to the afghan TALIBAN leader, MULLAH MOHAMMAD OMAR MUJAHID SAHIB(Hifzullah)"-Shaikh Osama Bin Laden Sahib,April 2001...

Now this report contains some information relating to International Deobandi Conference,April 2001.It was held in a small town in peshawar under the administration of Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam(JUI) keynote adress was of Mu'ammar Al-Qazafi and tapped speaches of Mullah Muhammad Omer Mujahid(Hifzullah) and Shaikh Osama Bin Laden were broadcasted over there....

I am quoting this report because you will never believe in what i will say that's why i am quoting it here...At page 5 of this report under the heading of AFGHANISTAN it was clearly stated that "Centuries of long standing Islamic traditions in Afghanistan were in danger of being pushed aside when the soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979.Ignoring Tribal and ethnic diversity the soviets ran roughshod over Afghanistan sensitivities by insisting on sweeping changes that included stripping women of the viel,requiring women to work outside of the home,Imposing literacy and instituting sweeping land reform.The Afghan Muslim response was to decleare JEHAD to cast out the Infidel(KUFFAR) from their borders.Afghans were spirited fighters because they saw their cause as a holy mandate."

This next paraghaph on page 6 reveals a lot for those who blindly criticise TALIBANS...

"When the soviets left in defeat in 1989 a provisional Islamist government, the mujahedin(worriors of GOD[JO BAD KAY SHUMALI ETIHAD BANAY]) was put in place with the help of the U.N. and U.S. These afghan warriors, steeped in the Deobandi religious tradition were critical of a government that proclaimed the name of Islam but had a strong relationship with the U.S., and U.N.,the soviet Union and in some cases,India.The time and religious climate was ripe for a government void of external influences and steeped in Islamic tradition to claim the country.

In the spring of 1994 two teenage girls from the village of sang hesar were abducted by the mujahedin(SHUMALI ETIHAD's)and repeatedly raped at the local checkpoint.Muhammad Omer(Hifzullah), a retired Afghan commander studying at the local maderssa, gathered 30 fellows TALIBANS(Students) and mounted successful rescue.The Mujahedin commander was hung from a slowly ascending tank-barrel.This was the birth of a movement that came to be known as the TALIBAN.

The Taliban began as a moral force called to arms for the purpose of crushing the immoral and corrupt mujahedin. Its forces fought with a divine(SHARIE) purposes.They were orderly, disciplined, Obedient and strongly determined.living examples of their qualities they developed through years of disiplined study in the RIGID MADERSSA SYSTEM.In early years they were admired among the common aghans for their moral qualities.They were skilled in negotiating a peace with the terms slanted in their favor but when called to battle they were disciplined.There were no reports of rape or looting and force could not be bought off with drug money.In spite of these positive characteristics the TALIBAN has not been a stellar fighting force and has experianced limited success on the battlefield.To date it has not been capable of crushing its longstanding opposition in North(SHUMALI ETIHAD).

From the religious perspective the TALIBAN suppressed the afghan expression of Islam with its heavy handed approach to implementing traditional Islam into every area of the society.Because of this they may be in danger of alienating the very poeple who bought them into power.However, the Taliban has deep roots in Afghan society and Islamic traditions.Given afghanistan's checkered history it is worth noting that this is the only political force in recent memory that has not been artificially creadted.For this reason alone outside governements need to tread cautiously with this regime."

My Dear Muslim Brothers and Sisters Especially KamranACA sahib I am sorry once again of being personal to you and I hope being my elder brother you will once again show your elderness to forgive me...My Dear People these above paragraphs are written by a FARANGIE who is not a muslim this is LAMHA-E-FIKRIYA for us that why we see only one side of picture and why we present mixup things..look at again those lines these has not been written by any muslim anyways there is no need to type conclusion of this report here but for your further study i am typing here the conclusion of this report which has been written by a FARANGIE..

this was written on page 6 and 7 of the report under the heading of Conclusion

"From the religious vantagepoint the defeat of the MUJAHIDIN(SHUMALIS) by the Taliban is a clash between two different visions held by two distinct Islamic fundamentalist groups.

The Mujahidin were Islamists who carried the banner of Islam and combated secularism and then communism in Afghanistan.Islamists are modernists who seek a contemporary political interpertation of Islam.Educationally they tilt towards Al-Azhor University in Egypt where they have been strongly influance by the political orientation of the fundamentalist group the 'Muslim Brotherhood'.Because they drew from this model other governments were quick to recognize their authority and they were able to form highly organized political parties.

The Taliban are traditionalists who have only entered the political stream in afghanistan since 1994.They view roll of government and society very differently from the mujahidin.They do not see Islam in political terms but in religious terms.They seek to return to the purity of the teachings of the QURAN and THE SUNNAH(The practices of the peophet<Salallahu-Allihe-Wassallam>).They are products of religious madrassas in pakistan whose roots go back to the DAR-UL-ULOOM(Seminary) in DEOBAND, India.Their history makes the Taliban inclined to organize themselves around regional associations rather than political parties.

Religious edicts are believed to have a divine source so they carry more authority in this society than humanitarian law that stress individual freedoms.The purpose of government is to be a reflection of the divine will(as interpreted by DEOBANDI SCHOLARS),not a guardian of individual rights and liberties as insisted upon by the west."

Further more this report contains some sectarian defination which will be usefull for all.

At page 7 the paragraph states"The Deobandi School and the Taliban are strict followers of the Hanfi legal code.Saudi Arabia strictly follows the Hanbali legal code.This is a divisive point between the Taliban and the Saudi Government.What confuses things is that both Saudi Arabia and the DEOBANDI SCHOOL(i.e. the TALIBAN) are often referred to as "WAHHABIS".This term,which origionally referred to an Islamic reformer in th 18th Century,developed a completely different meaning in india under British rule.What is important for the western reader to keep in mind is that the term "WAHHABIS" means something very different in the Saudi Arabia context then it does in the TALIBAN context.One must never assume that Saudi Arabia and the Taliban share the same Islamic vision...they don't."

Dear Kamran BHAI May ALLAH(S.W.T) give your friend ALA MAQAM in JANAT-UL-FIRDOUS aur In kay GHAR WALOON aur LAWAHIQEENN aur dostoon ko SABR-e-Jamil ATA Farmain A'amen-Ya-Rabal-Aa'lamen...

Also I feel very sad on the incident which has been quoted by Sister Cool-Lioness where one Masoom BACHI was abducted by an Eblees(please don't use the word Moulve with him its my request)..ENHI logo kay liay ALLAH nay AZAB-E-ALEEM TYAR kar rakha hay...

kamranACA · 08-01-2007, 08:10 PM

Dear,

I dont have any personal enemity with you, with Shumali Ittehad people or with Talibans. I always have differences on points of principles. The priciples, of course which appeal to my human mind. At the same time I dont have any claim for perfection since I am also a sinful human.

I had and have never been in favour of killings of human beings. I know AIK INSAAN KAA QATAL SAARI INSAANIYET KAA QATAL HAI. If you check the history you will see that utmost bloodshed in the history has been done on the name of religion. Even before Islam and even after Islam. I agree that political reasons and an effort of increasing the controlled area also contributed in such killings but if we thoroughly analyze the human psyche and human history, we will come to know that maximum killings have ever been done for religious purposes.

Still, today we can see that we dont have any forebearance among us in religious matters. We exclaim that we are not the leaseholders of our religion and every one who is a human being (and in the matter of Islamic discussion, is a muslim) should have a basic democratic right to express his view. Even then we cannot hold our minds and tounges on the issues related to religion. We declare so manys as non-muslim. I dont support anything to the contrary but except for the matter of declaring qadiyanies as non-muslims, that was done moderately by an approximate of Ijmah-e-Ummat, we have divided ourselves into so many sects and beliefs and have never reached a point of common conclusion (Ijmah-e-Ummat) and each of the sect calls the other sect as non-muslim. Even in the matter of declaring qadiyanies as non-muslim there emerged a situation where our Ulemas had to define the term MUSLIM. You must know what happened at that time. If not, one should see the records of proceedings of this particular event of 1974. As per various definitions put forward by various sect Ulemas, every other sect was not covered in the definition of MUSLIM. It was our hard luck at that time and it is still our hard luck. It was Bhutto's wisdom and advanced thinking which resolved the issues and passing through a very difficult situation of collaborating all Ulemas on one point he strived for the conclusion.

So it had ever been our problem that without any IJMAH-E-UMMAT our various sects have been declaring each other as KAFIR. SHIA SUNNI fasadaat are an example of it. We cannot so far eliminate this fight among two brothers of same religion. It is the most hard luck. We dont ever try to listen and understand the other in his idealogy. This is not alone your problem Mr. Amir. This also is the case with me and every one else. We never reached a common conclusion point anywhere in the history.

As far as the report narrated by you is concerned, I must say that I have a very different viewpoint that collides with the very initial paragraphs you have mentioned. How can I go along the report with which I cannot agree even at the outset irrespective of whoever has written it and whatever had been his intentions and purposes. It goes

QUOTE

"Centuries of long standing Islamic traditions in Afghanistan were in danger of being pushed aside when the soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979."

UNQUOTE

Afghanistan ever had Afghani traditions and not the Islamic traditions. I must make this point clear to you. For God sake understand it. No country has Islamic or non-islamic traditions normally. Traditions are particular to specific areas, its customs, its logics, its life style and its own history and society. If you see guns in hands of Afghans, it is their own culture and must not be called the Islamic culture. Their kids even know how to fire various guns. I am from a Pathan family basically migrated from Afghanistan. Our kids and females know how to fire various guns and are normally very much master of this tradition. I was able to fire all guns normally visible in the society when I was in sixth class. We (my father, uncles and other family members) had have so many licensed guns made of different countries and every kid of our family in that time was taught how to use them. It is our tradition and has nothing to do with Islamic studies, Islamic teachings and Islamic traditions.

QUOTE

"Ignoring Tribal and ethnic diversity the soviets ran roughshod over Afghanistan sensitivities by insisting on sweeping changes that included stripping women of the viel,requiring women to work outside of the home,Imposing literacy and instituting sweeping land reform.The Afghan Muslim response was to decleare JEHAD to cast out the Infidel(KUFFAR) from their borders.Afghans were spirited fighters because they saw their cause as a holy mandate."

UNQUOTE

I am not against taking veil if any one prefers it but as I have already clarified my viewpoint, in my opinion it is not a stipulation or condition in the light of code of ethics laid down in SOORAH-E-NOOR. However, no one was forcibly snatching the veils in Afghanistan. A few instances cannot be quoted as a fashion of the day. As far as the rape case the report specifies, one must know that the crimes are always the part of various societies and not a single country in the world could have stopped them and ruled out them totally. This was not even stopped in Taliban regime. However, they have killed so manys for such allegations where such killings were again not as per the standards of justice laid down by the advanced human approach and even purely as per Islamic approach.

The above quoted para of the report narated by you speaks about requiring women to work outside of the home,Imposing literacy and instituting sweeping land reform. In my view there was no forced labor from women, literacy must have been imposed and promoted and land reforms is the issue where every country has developed its own procedures and rules as per the need of its culture. Nothing in whole this first paragraph of report was against any islamic thought. This is the main difference with which I at the outset dont agree.

This was the first thing with which I can never agree.

I must say that Shumali Ittehad people were not the pure ones. I dont support their style of ruling where they were killing the innocents. Like-wise Talibans tenure is also not appreciable in my eyes as they had touched the peaks of rigidity. This has also been agreed in the report you have mentioned. This report states

"Living examples of their qualities they developed through years of disiplined study in the RIGID MADERSSA SYSTEM."

Whatever qualities in one eyes they had developed but their basic frame of idealogy was based upon the peaks of rigidity as has been mentioned.

Report states

"They are products of religious madrassas in pakistan whose roots go back to the DAR-UL-ULOOM(Seminary) in DEOBAND, India.Their history makes the Taliban inclined to organize themselves around regional associations rather than political parties".

I disagree to this para to a little extent. They might have been educated in Deobandi Madrissas but they were infact developed by some hidden hand and they were ultimately creating reasons for USA to penetrate in Afghanistan owing to its so-called security threats caused by Talibans. They indirectly worked for the cause of USA, specially Usama Bin Laden and his fellows. This was a product of the manufacturer and not of the DARULALOOM or deobandi concept.

Report states

"Religious edicts are believed to have a divine source so they carry more authority in this society than humanitarian law that stress individual freedoms.The purpose of government is to be a reflection of the divine will(as interpreted by DEOBANDI SCHOLARS),not a guardian of individual rights and liberties as insisted upon by the west."

This is in my view an effort to defame Islam by this Farangie and is no where in favour of muslims and in favour of Islam. This appears to be an effort to show us backward and illetrate. Divine will no where restricts us to make human laws and behave humanly on issues of general life. A human isolatedly cannot define the divine will as per his own idea. This way every one's idea about divine will would be different and there would be created so many gods for various school of thoughts. Ultimately humans have to get their desipline as per their own laws, rules and regulation. Just see the traffic system. This is no where available as per divine will as divine will has nothing to do with it. It was human's requirement and was made to meet his requirement. Every human development is for its needs and the participation of divine will in such developments is that the divine will gave the human a mind and wisdom to do so. Therefore, defining the divine will as per only one sect's (deoband) belief is totally dishonesty with general mankind. If one can understand it.

Another para of report states

"When the soviets left in defeat in 1989 a provisional Islamist government, the mujahedin(worriors of GOD[JO BAD KAY SHUMALI ETIHAD BANAY]) was put in place with the help of the U.N. and U.S. These afghan warriors, steeped in the Deobandi religious tradition were critical of a government that proclaimed the name of Islam but had a strong relationship with the U.S., and U.N.,the soviet Union and in some cases,India."

Just steeping in deobandi school of though may not be deemed as critical to Islam. I dont support Shumali Ittehad as I know who they were, but it would be injustice with all muslims of Afghanistan if the strict deobandi thoughts would be declared as the only Islam to be followed in Afghanistan.

I know my objections on this report will not be understandable for you. I dont seek any guidance from you to understand this report as I have a difference of opinon with basic creation point of Talibans against other whatever power governing the Afghanistan.

The basic point is still that we have so many sects and in the eyes of one sect all the doings of others are UN and US derived and should have been replaced by the thoughts of the objecting sect. Every sect feels itself as purest muslim having all the followable advises and education. No one wants to bring the muslims on a single plate farm. No one has the pain for his other brothers and sisters. This has since been destroying us and if we will not mend our ways, it will again destroy it. I have already mentioned that for God's Islam we are not a condition. God can create very better muslims from the Yahood-o-Nasara after destroying us all.

I seek forgiveness from ALLAH for all my wrong deeds and wish all muslims to get on to a common platefarm without indulging theirselves in Shia , Sunni , Ehal-e-Hadees , Deobandi and other such sects.

May God help all muslims in this era of difficulty.

I will at the end again mention that prosperity, power and control will never come in our hands unless we strive for education, social, financial, economial and technical development. We are hundreds of years behind the advanced nations and we have to bring ourselves equal to them if we wish to have any comparison.

I once again support the idea of equally educating our girls and boosting up their courage to get education and contribute in country's development. Since I know you will not agree to this point so I must mention that this point is only for those who can understand it.

Best regards,

Kamran

Schuaeb · 08-02-2007, 01:31 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Muhammad Amir
 FOR BHAI IMRAN SAHIB

My dear brother I don't know why we people close our eyes from facts,once In this forum A person named as "USMAN HAIDER" posted an obscene post in this forum titled as "CALL GIRLS FROM KARACHI" there were only two people me and "ASTUTE ACCOUNTANT" who condemn his ill posts even Mr SHOAIB was against us by saying that this is general discussion thread and so every one can post here anything
Regards,

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now can you tell me when all this happened. I guess all this **** just is produced by your mind. And denying does do any thing the line that ONLY I AND ASTUTE CONDEMN very much shows that you like all those bloody maulvies considers themselves as THAIKE DARS OF ISLAM.

Infact you have closed your minds and think that you are the only representative of Islam. Without knowing that most may be better Muslims that you.

Muhammad Amir · 08-02-2007, 07:06 AM

Very well dear shoaib i never expect from you to post such thing hear however here you are

http//www.accountancy.com.pk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5223&whichpage=1

Go there and read with open mind and see what you have posted and see what i have posted and yes I am very sinful person and i agree that most of infact all other muslims are much much better muslims than me and you are one of those better muslims...

I once again say that here all members are much much better muslims than me...

If I am wrong then who have written these lines
SHOAIB<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
"This is a general discussion thread so nothing wrong with the topic, however, no idea what the posts after that are leading to."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Anyways i have given the link above and so all people can see that link and then conclude about your behaviour...

And remember this USMAN HAIDER has changed this thread and it's topic 2 or three times you can see the posted date,the edited date,replies of MEHTAB,ASTUTE ACCOUNTANT,MCABALOCH....I also need to ask from ADMIN that please provide us the very first topic title and subject of that post......I also invite Cool Lioness,Astute Accountant and MEHTAB to visit this thread and tell Mr Shoaib.....

Regards,
Muhammad Amir

kamranACA · 08-02-2007, 05:00 PM

Dear Amir,

Infact whatever Shoaib has written had a basic theme that every one here on this forum is independent of other's idealogy. One must not be attaked on or defamed for his thinkings on general life issues. One can write down here any aspect of general life keeping his words within the moral boundries.

I support the idea of Shaoib that this is a general sub-forum and is basically for generalized matters to be discussed for common knowledge and understanding. If some one had changed the title of his thread due to your request or after feeling it a little bit immoral, it must be deemed as his greatness since you are not the sole authority to judge the suitability of any message posted here. This is the responsibility of Admin.

However, if we altogether feel something odd we can request Admin to discuss the issue with the member so that the problem could be peacefully resolved without losing any respected member's future valuable contributions. I have not probably gone through the thread you are mentioning, but still I feel if some one was discusisng the issue of spredaing of lewdness or call girls or brothels, it is not a taboo and should be discussed as a negative facet of any city's common society. This may help out lots of people (who might not be knowing the facts) to save their youngers from such evils.

You appear to be a HADEES reader or learner, you must know that so many negative facets of society were commonly discussed by Sahaba-e-Karam Rizwanullah with the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him for guidance purpose and to know the pros and cons. If these were not to be known or to be inquired or to be discussed how they were supposed to get the benefits of immense NOOR of knowledge of the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him on every aspect of life. Even such issues have been quoted in Hadees books, which we normally dont discuss in front of our new generation. When I read SAHI BUKHARI first time, it shaked so much in my mind and broke so many idols created in my ideas by the SEENA-BA-SEENA ILAM transferred to us from common maulvies.

Once you also discussed about course contents of A-level or O-level regarding stories including vulgerity (in your views) and indian traditions. I told you that we have to make the new generation a mature and responsible citizen and teaching these all things with proper guidance would be more beneficial to tell them what is wrong and what is right. For example, if the youth (specially in uprising age) would not know about AIDS, it would be more dangerous for us. So many among us criticise the adds appearing in tv about AIDS. This is just like the issue for quoting difrent punishments for ZANA, depriving the invalid child borne due to zana from all rights of inheritence (the rules to which our society accepts very openly) but then do not producing or laying down any code of life or solution for the protection, growth, and brought up of invalid childern who dont come to this world with their wish and endeavor. There is no solution and none of our AALIMS has ever made a reason to find out its solution. By ignoring this can we deny the fact that so many invalid childern still get borne in even Islamic countries. We dont have solution for them except leaving them to death or making them LA-WARIS. This is ridiculous. And if some one will discuss it, some of these Ulemas declare him what not and what not. I salute the persons like Edhi Sahib and Ansar Barni Sahib for their best efforts to rescue the humanity. None of the Ulemas can get such a salute. Can they???????????????

Basically we always think negatively. We always try to find things of satisfaction for our inside evil and wherever we see such a thing we get alert that it must not be tranformed and known to our kids.Please come out of these thousand years old caves and see the outside world. It is much better than those caves and tora bora mountains. Diversified knowledge, general information, proper brought up, looking forward approach, accepting the challenges of life and knowing every good and bad very deeply will always help to develope a more mature, sensible and responsible generation than us. You might never be able to understand it. May God help you.

Dear Shoaib,

This man Mr. Amir, more oftenly loses his senses like a mature citizen and attacks on others much more personally just forgetting about the purpose of this forum which provides equal rights to every one to express his valid views. He allegs the others that by posting their views every one is forcing his views on him. I was very suspecious about the strength of his faith and his wisdom that how one's views can be forced on him or any body else. How one's faith could be so weak. But he always deems it so. He oftenly seeks forgiveness for his doings subsequently when he comes back in his senses. I have left feeling bad of any of his vulgarity as it is in his nature. Please dont mind his words as he oftenly goes out of his senses and any thing posted by him in such mental situation should not affect the other. You can check out my example.

He also forgets the HADESS that if some one abuses the other or his parents, and the other keeps quite without throwing such an abuse in response, then such an abuse automatically comes back to him personally or to his parents. He must check this hadees and mend his mentality, if he believes in AHADEES.

Still, he is our brother and I always feel pain for him. May God be with him and show him a correct path and give him proper wisdom and faith. This is a prayer and would be the best what we can offer to our brothers and sisters. I seek same prayer from any one , if he/she desires to pray for me.

Best regards,

Kamran.

Cool Lioness · 08-02-2007, 06:15 PM

I feel like you all are same. You all get personal with each other and everyone wants that his ideas to be given more importance and listened carefully.

Regards

kamranACA · 08-02-2007, 08:26 PM

Dear Miss Coollioness,

Mujhay tu naa ragro please. I never said that any one must read my post, must listen me, must consider me Allama.

It is a forum and every one should express his/her views as u did. If these are not below a moral limit these should not be misbehaved in response.

Further, I never exclaimed to be a better Muslim. I always said I am a sinful person. Once you termed this statement of mine as proudy one as well. KISI AIK JAGAH TIKO, KOI AIK BAYAAN JAARI KARO please.

I never get personal to any one unless he states something very critical about me. Even then I try not to touch the depth of Jahalat. Yes, I am a human and I may commit some mistake as well in my judgements.

Would you be fine if we all the three agree you to be an ALLAMA since you also express your view with same intensity?

Tauba larki hai keh aafat hai ) Your husband (to be) will have to pay back his all injustices of life after getting married to you. AL-AMAAN AL-HAFEEZ. (kidding)...

Best regards,

Kamran.

kamranACA · 08-02-2007, 08:36 PM

Coollioness,

Hadd Hai.

Such a big edit to your post? Where does now stand my above reply. (

Regards,

Cool Lioness · 08-02-2007, 08:56 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 Coollioness,

Hadd Hai.

Such a big edit to your post? Where does now stand my above reply. (

Regards,

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Mein ne edit iss liye kiya ke baad mein soch aaiee ke inn theenon ne tou mill kar mera Barbeque bana daina hai [)] so better to delete the lines foran se beshtar. But afsos aap ne tou parh liya [B)]

Sach bataoon tou i thought may be i will hurt anyone's feelings with my words which i never want. So i deleted the major portion. Pehlay issliye likha tha kiyun ke mujhay aap lougon kee roz roz kee chakh chakh se ghussa char giya tha.

Cool Lioness · 08-02-2007, 09:03 PM

Would you be fine if we all the three agree you to be an ALLAMA since you also express your view with same intensity? Loo mera yeh maqsad thouri tha? Meray tou question answer simple simple se hotay hain. Its you all who talk like Allamas. Jaise sab kuch aap ke saamnay hoowa hai and you all are the only Chamshdeed Gawahs (eye witnesses).

Tauba larki hai keh aafat hai ) Your husband (to be) will have to pay back his all injustices of life after getting married to you. AL-AMAAN AL-HAFEEZ. (kidding)... Uss ko meray haath lagnay tou do. Phir daikhna....(i m serious) [D]
Best regards

kamranACA · 08-02-2007, 09:08 PM

Coollioness,

May God bless you with best of future, happiness and luck. You are a very nice and intelligent girl.

Regards,

Kamran.