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[kamranACA]

Dear Astute,

Yes, my post is "ambiguous".

Simply speaking my words were for Shoaib and not for you.

Abb pallay para?


Regards,


Kamran.

[Schuaeb]

@ Astute
That statement was meant for me, and it was not ambiguous atleast nor for me. And I think I didn't deny that rather accept that. But why did you take things for you. CHORR KI DARHI MAIN TINKA

36 runs were required with six wickets in hand and run rate quite under control. Pakistan lost the match by 14 runs, dear it was not against India, it was the final match of previous serious vs SA. But as Kamran said that my logics may have less weightage for you as yours for mine, so I think I can't prove my point by logics. I wonder where he put facts in his theory.

Astute you were of the view that you don't watch cricket as Pakistan's performance is really poor. Poor could have different meaning for you. But I think the facts stated have proved that your statement was totally false. Magar kia karain logics tou sab ke apne hotay hain. And don't compare our team with Kiwis, we are quite better.

[Schuaeb]

I would like to rectify some facts mentioned by me as required by Kamran. That particular series we refer to Kamran had three matches.
First was won by India. Second match we won Younis scored his test highest there I think. Last match courtesy some performance in the depth of our last inning we managed to draw a sure shot lost game, Razzaq scored some 70 odd runs on some less than 300 deleiveries, whereas Kamran (Kamran Akmal not KamranACA) helped him by scoring a match saving century.

[Schuaeb]

Dear Kamran,

Thanks for staying at the thread and consedering my request. However, your post is denying that any thing can be proved by any logic.

But something at least positive is there, there had been a bit of consensus. I guess you are no more of the view that no body wants to play with us due to the deed of officials. And we have to beg others to play with us and in return we let them win. Please take my words this is never the reality. Pakistan is not considered as safe venue anymore and I thing you will understand that its a different affair. We may not have as much sponsors as are there for India and Australlia, that too is a different thing yet we can play normal cricket, infact we are playing. We played with SA in the start of this year then WC then there was a series with Sri Lanka, then we played T20 WC, then we played a home series with SA now we are playing with India. Next year Australlia is scheduled to come to Pakistan (if security reasons do no become the cause for changing the venue). Pakistan doesn't have skippers for a big time. Inzimam is the only example but other countries are doing this. And basically in my view the captain is not intentionally made the scape goat by the board, infact this is done by awam, who, I wonder how forget everything after the next day and I think Astute is an example here. From heros to zeros in just one day nobody else but Pakistani masses can do it in one day. Recent example Inzimam ul Haq. Internal politics have done a lot damage to our cricket, as it is not the focus so I will not talk on this issue.

Now the only difference which is there I reckon is the match fixing or planning issue. I didn't deny that ever neither did you. In your case majority of the matches are fixed and in my case it therotically impossible for any sport to continue if a big majority of its matches are fixed. If it is the case it has to become a stage show like WWE. Even it is in the very interest of the fixers if they let normal cricket being played and intervene occasionally, I think you can get this point. As I tried to proof that this world is not heaven, and sports (not only cricket) at some places have been plagued by some corrupt people, in my view it never means that we stop watching or playing at all. And this fixing is a complex issue, I don't think the whole team is involved. Some players are bribed. Things can be proved by results and I beleive that the match vs Ireland was never a fixed one. Burning of homes is a series issue, if I am being offered bribe and I do have threats if I do the same would be risky for me then I don't think I need to go for that. I think the same is true bout you and players. A desperate man going to KSA with drugs is a bit different thing.

You didn't answer one thing if we beleive your theory shouldn't we be thankful to these fixers as Pakistani team had won more matches than they have lost. We have won WC once, we recently were the finalists in T20. Hates Off to fixers.

I didn't ask you to prove your statement by providing some evidence or documentary proof instead expected to have some logics from you, regretfully failed to some extent.

Waise why these fixers are working in the very interst of Australlian board for last ten years. Aur WI, Kiwis, England or India kia kasur he?

[kamranACA]

Dear,

First of all I at once reject your idea that there has developed some consensus on the issue described by u as under

"I guess you are no more of the view that no body wants to play with us due to the deed of officials. And we have to beg others to play with us and in return we let them win."

I dont know how you deduced my view. However, it is not strange of you to make such assumptions. Whatever has happened here, either it was Shakoor Rana case, our security issues (just like SA denied playing at Karachi), the murder of french people when NewZeland was at visit of Pakistan, emergency in Pakistan, Inzamam's issues with the Match referee or match Umpire, murder of Pakistan's coach at west indies, proven record of corruption of our players like Saleem Malik Ejaz Ahmad Waseem Akram and others (now dont refer to me indian names in response), worldover bad named fights among our players like Rashid Latif/Basit Ali/Muhammad Asif/Shoib Akhter etc and many more such major or minor problems have been accumulating and keeping on affecting Pakistan's repute have and will go a long way in creating such situations where number of countries will hide their heads when invited to visit Pakistan. Some years back it had been a real problem for Pakistan. If you compare the test matches played by pakistani players and their records with the players of the other countries you will find a clear cut difference. How much test cricket we play every year as compared to others and what are reasons of very lesser games available to our team. Now dont just beat about the bush providing shameful figures which you call as very much encouraging.

If you will talk about putting the facts then you should try to understand the facts provided by others as well. The facts can considerably go wrong for your "improved average" and best performances. Facts must also be considered by assigning the utility concept and with reference to importance of a particular match for a team. I dont deny that our semi-final at 20/20 WC was a good show by our players but I certainly cannot rule out the chances of match fixing even in that particular tournament. I dont feel it much different than WWE shows. You said that had it been like WWE, its liking should have ruined over the time. Pitty on this conclusion. You know how much importance WWE has in the world where ur mind accepts it to be a planned show? You know the prices of tickets of a WWE day? You know many of the WWE players are among the richest in the players of all other games in the world? You know how many sponsors are involved in boosting up WWE? How you can say that fixation or pre-planning can ruin the importance and general liking. You must not forget thet the most liked and most seen game in the world is WWE matches. Its players are by name remembered by almost all the elders and kids who watch cable. This shows how much accurate your estimations are. My dear brother such issues cant harm the importance of the games.

Sunil Gawaskar is big name in match fixing issues. Get CDs of all matches of 1992 WC and find out Sunil's comments for Pakistani team in each and every match. You will certainly conclude that he was from the very first day declaring Pakistan to be a best team having greatest potential to win 92 WC. You must remember what was the condition of Pakistan team until semi final in that WC. How a man of senses could say that tutti bhajji team as the potential winner at the outset and through out the tournament. Yes, some bookie can say it. It's not a wonder for me. It might be for you.

Further, winning and losing does not have importance for fixers (I am not talking about Pakistani situation). They have to earn and they do it both ways.

Your question regarding Aust is gud that why they oftenly win. Bhayya jee, if you remember WWE, you should also remember that for world heavy weight championship NOORA MATCHES are oftenly played but lower middle category player normally never takes this title. This remains the game of the big ones. If we see all big cricket tournaments Aust has almost remained in finals or at least semi-finals becoz it is a big side. There could be arranged some upsets which can hide behind other performances but the big ones cannot be totally ruled out. In fact room for fixing and playing the double game remains always there. Whatever they do, they do in gud style so that people dont totally feel it as NOORA. Have you never seen blood on the heads of HHH, Batista, Randy Ortan and other big double gamers. Yes, a person like you can say, "Ohh this wud never be a NOORA match, are you guys not seeing blood on bala bala's face".

No problem Shoaib. This exists becoz so manys think like you. If people like you will change thinking, would it not stop. I am sure it will never stop. Allah meray bhaai ko uss jaisey bhaaiyon ko salaamat rakhey!!! Ameen.

No one is desperate to go to KSA for getting beheading. Its a game. people take chances to make money. Do you feel crime is done only due to desperation? No, so many do it as a profession. Even if we dont talk about crimes so much in normal life is done by endangering one's life. A man working to build 45 floor building do it for earning and not for adventure or desperation. I saw a man going to 220 meter high smoke pipe of the WAPDA's Muzaffar Garh thermal project just for fixing a bulb on the top of it. It was through open stairs installed in the wall of such smoke pipe and the person doing it was an illetrate man of M. Garh. When he came down after completing his task, I asked him why he did such a dangerous work without saftely belt at his back and safety net over the ground. He said, Mr. you know for this 20 minutes task I will be paid double DEHAARI (labor cost for twice a day) and I have to take this chance for earning gud money for my family.

So, doing such dangerous things is not difficult for some people. When somebody will know that he is going to earn 10 Millions and as a result his home of say 2 million will be destroyed, he will never abstain his-self from taking the chance. Becoz earning 10 million will be certain while losing 2 million wud be contingent. Game of probabilities you know.

Is it enough or shud we prolong this purposeless debate?

Regards,


Kamran.

[Astute Accountant]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />Dear Astute,

Yes, my post is "ambiguous".

Simply speaking my words were for Shoaib and not for you.

Abb pallay para?


Regards,


Kamran.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yuppppp dear Bhai!!! I got your point.

Yesterday I couldn't understand actually I was feeling too sleepy. That's why........ But thanks for the clarification.

BTW ab pallay par gia, acchi tarha!!! [)]

[Astute Accountant]

@ Shoaib Bhai

I've to leave now; will reply to you soon Inshallah, perhaps tomorrow!!!

[Schuaeb]

My deduction quite simple if you address all areas and leave a particular one (infact the one which started this discussion), then I can simply assume your silence as consent.

I asked you to stay here and should be grateful as you obliged. Now this is your own time and you yourself have to decide what to do.

Now I thin you will agree atleast on this that there are three things primarily two which are being discussed here.
1-Condition of cricket in Pakistan
2-Match fixing issue
3-Risking your life for money.

Coming to the first, totally different cheezon ko milana somebody should learn from you. If we just have to create logics to prove our point instead of going to a conclusion where logics lead to, I will have to agree that every such debate is purposeless and a mere waste of time. A team denys to come to Pakistan for security reasons is totally different then Shakoor Rana or Inzimam issue. I hope that you will agree no body has ever denied to play with us on the basis of these issues, if it is the case give me a single example. If some team doesn't consider to play in Pakistan on the basis of Pakistan on the basis of security issues its totally a different thing and the team is justified in doing that. I don't know what made you to deduce that boards do not want to play with us for the deeds of our officials.

Although I have no idea what point you want to prove by giving these facts but I will like to tell you that it has been proved that Pakistani coach died of stroke and it was a natural death. The autopsy have confirmed. Indian media and officials have tried to pull us into the affair but remained unsuccessful. Hansie Cronie, Gibbs, Shane Warne, Azharudin, Jadeja are some of the other names highlighted in match fixing issues. So, this by no way can be proved that Pakistan is involved in match fixing more than others. (I am telling this because it appeared that you give some names as the reason of not playing with Pakistan). Daryl Hair was not Pakistani, Rana Tunga once took his team outside as a protest against empire's decision as did Inzi in Oval, Hair was the empire in both cases. Shakoor Rana was applogised. You seem to be unaware of the remarks passed by Attaputa for his board in Australlia. So how come you can say that Pakistan is involved more in such issues. And more than that you took it as a reason for other countries not playing for Pakistan, more than strange.

Some teams have denied to play in Pakistan for some security reasons. These matches are than played on neutral venues. You should know that Australlia and WI didn't play in Sri Lanka during WC 1996 for same reasons.

You took figures provided by me as shameful, I wonder how. Still it may be your own way to interpret facts. It was new for me to know that you don't understand the environs of this corporate era and the importance of sponsors. India is playing more than anyother teams reason being it has got huge sponsors, infact cricket depends to some extent on Indian sponsors. Australlia's is a similar case. Why Pakistan have played less test cricket? The number of people watching test match in pakistan can be counted of figures despite have such cheap entry tickets. Similarly sponsors are less interested. So this is the main reason that countries like Pakistan have played less cricket. Yet this less (as you beleive its less) is more than average. Yousaf broke the record for scoring maximum runs (test) in a calendar year (2006). It won't have been possible if Pakistan were not playing 18 matches that year. 18 is quite on higher side if you do understand international cricket. State should definitely be related by utility concept. You didn't tell me that how Pakistani state appeared higher than amount of utility they succeeded to acheive. In a longer run I beleive better stats mean better performance, I hope you can understand (although not sure) so I need not to give much examples.

Well said that in T20 Pakistan only did well in semi final, the rest of games sombody else played for them.

Coming to your second point. Infact this time you more emphasized on comparing it with WWE, as an effort to prove my statement "therotically impossible for any sport to continue if a big majority of its matches are fixed. If it is the case it has to become a stage show like WWE. Even it is in the very interest of the fixers if they let normal cricket being played and intervene occasionally"

I knew that WWE is a stage show even when I was a kid, all those who come to watch WWE know this. They didn't come to see some real wrestling. Once I asked a friend of mine (quite frantic about wrestling) why do he watch wrestling when everything is pre planned. He simply responded why do you watch movies. I guess you may understand what I tried to prove by means of this simple example.WWE can never be compared with fixing. That is not fixing in that case, infact that is properly directed as a drama, and people come to see that drama. More of the drama more viewership. I hope things clarified.

No once again coming to my point that it is not possible for any sport to continue if it totally become a staged drama as WWE, infact it will become like WWE. Officials in that case only will be able to have some viewship if they can make it a drama whom people knowing this are willing to watch. This is the case with WWE. Sports is a different thing, and at some occasions its facing issues like fixing (not only cricket I have to repeat it for the third time)100 of thousands of people watch club soccer in Europe fixing scandals had been there or even fixing had been there but it never makes a staged program like WWE or Tmaseel theatre.

My questions remain same why are fixers so kind to Australlia (your explanation where you compared with some WWE champs is no more valid and this time I really beleive you would agree, and try to come with some better reasons). Australlia is breaking all records and progressing in an unprecedented manner for ten years I should say. India is the country about which is generally beleived has strongest roots for fixers, I am not sure whether you no or not, my question why Indian fixers are such enemies of there team. Why shouldnt we be thankful to fixers for giving us a respectable place in international cricket?

The third point, is pr hum kabi aur with more positive attitude baat karian gay, but I should say Kamran or anyother person jis ka pait bhra ho wont risk his life for money.

Continuing to this post in your personal affair. Magar Kamran sb app bhi koi baat maan ker is forum pr masal kaim kr do, so dogmatic you always are regarding your opinions. (the case may be quite similar with others but some times you make some difference) Or at least say one thing that things can't be sorted out by means of logic.

[kamranACA]

Dear Shoaib,

I would certainly say that you have this time mixed the things well and given them meaning of your own choice. You said WWE is not a sport and cricket is a sport. Gud for you to conclude it. I wonder I have never seen WWE matches at Star Plus or some other drama channel. These are always run at sports channel. Certainly these sports channels should get consultancy services from you regarding what should be categorized as sports and what should not be.

I again reiterate that cricket is as much drama as the WWE is. I will reiterate that as in WWE the big players have to win the big titles, exactly in cricket big teams win or run up the big titles. Yes, upsets can also be seen in both veneues. This just requires understanding and acceptibility. Dramas in sports are typically arranged in such a way that so many of "WISE" people treat it as a genuine spirit. As far as Australia is concerned it is the biggest play of the game and its winning is not out of question even in dramas as I explained earlier. However, you can see upsets as well like what Aust did against Zimbabwe. Can you explain what happened in 1999 WC final when Pakistan collapsed against Australia. Was in ur wise conclusion it not a fixed or pre-agreed game? If not, then is there any purpose of our discussion???


Where I have quoted the examples of Shakoor Rana and others along with security reasons, it was to say that various things giving us bad name have been accumulated over the time. I did not say that only a single reason is the root cause of everything. As far as security issue is concerned is Sri Lanka safe for the foreigners? Is india a safe place? Is UK a safe place? These all places had been on hit list of terrorists as could be evidenced from the news papers after 9/11. Pakistan is portrayed to be more unsafer than other places due to lesser effective advocacy and diplomatic efforts by the responsible ones. I must agree that the treatment of other nations with Pakistan has so many times been seen one sided. I again say that this prophecy lacks the evidence and may also not appear logical to you but there is some certain issue of PCB with other boards and in so many cases PCB has behaved like this where Pakistan lost its stance and benefits. Just study the financial loss sustained by Pakistan when a match at UK was refused to be played by us. Yes our board had been on its knees on so many occusions. We had been dishonest more than other world. For this you can also check our number as a nation in the report of Transperecy International. We have much more accpetibility of pre-planning than other world. Other countries might be doing it at players level, if we accept all your points, but Pakistan undoubtedly is doing it at board's level that is too much dangerous than the dishonesty at player's level. Can anybody tell us the justification of Naseem Ashraf's appointment as Chairman board? His previous exposure to cricket and his connectivity and understanding with/of this game at this professional level. The persons like (at higher side) Shaukat Aziz, Moeen Qureshi, Mian Muhammad Somro and
(at a bit lower side) Naseem Ashraf etc are imported for very specific purposes. Do you feel some one really has the pain for the country? You cannot conclude these comparisons as distracted and irrelevant. These show the mindset and trend of the country's thought as a whole.

Rahi baat bharay huey pait waaley ka maut sey khailnaa. Tu bhaai what the people in governance of Pakistan are doing? There is a basic concept that people who come up in power fell so much in lust of money and position that they never want to go out alive. Have you not seen the situation of Zia-ul-Haq and are you not seeing situation of Pervez Musharraf (rightly said to be Pervez Mussalat by some fellow at this forum)? Why the death of father and two real brothers of Benzair has not abstained her from doing this politics. Do you really feel she has a pain for Pakistan and nation. So is it not a quest of money even with full tummies? What will you call it? This is just one exmaple. You know I can provide you so many other such examples where even full stomached people endanger their lives for money. Do you really not know them???

I think this word LOGIC carries some psychological effects for you. If so, I will not use this word again. Further if you only wish to hear from me that I am totally impressed from ur viewpoint and have no word to contradict with such a mature reality based and nicely framed viewpoint and statements, then tell me, I will at some place declare it for your happiness and satisfaction of mind. ) Otherwise you know I ont really agree what you say at this thread. Just tell me if you only wish to hear how much impressed I am. I will declare it. Unconditional.


Stay happier.


Regards,



Kamran.

[Schuaeb]

Karmran sb so you want to continue your tradition. I mean you are never unwilling to submit to any other's opinion. It might be only due to two reasons. Either you are perfect or you are stubborn, there might not be any third case. At the same time you are generous enough to make me feel happier by unconditionally accepting my point.

One thing which our thread or even discussions in normal lives prove that we are followers of our beliefs and not of the facts (logic I don't know due to what reasons but is not allowed here). How true as somebody said "opinions are ultimately determined by feelings and not by intellect". Being rational I often argue is something very difficult, and my point is proved to me at various occasions. I used to think that our aim should be to lessen our bias, but that too, as I have concluded, is not possible. At the same time one's ability for being rational is considered as intellect. By this definition emotional people like me (perhaps not only me) can't be considered intelligent. At various occasions I have mentioned at this forum that we have our ends in our minds (determined by our feelings) and we let our intellect to work for us to derive logics, oh sorry I mean facts, which will help us to prove our points. We let our intellect to work for our feelings. I will quote somebody else "those who are not ready to change their opinions love themselves more than the truth", I think we all prefer ourselves on the truth. Having said all this I will require you to tell me if these are the circumstances then what is the use of getting into any debate or discussion. Perhaps it is to satisfy our need to express ourselves.

You have not left me with much reasons to continue here. So far I have not been able to make you agree that some difference exist between cricket and WWE. At least even if we agree both are pre-planned, in the later case it is declared I mean the officials and the viewers agree on this, and in the previous case (cricket and other sports) at least it is pretended by the officials and players that things are genuine. I wonder if you won't agree to me on this point. If you don't its fine but if you do all of your earlier efforts for comparison between cricket and WWE loose weightage if they had any. I will say you are among very few who think that people take WWE as a genuine sport.

Coming to the other point, I still am not able to conclude your point that why people don't want to play with us. This is for security reasons or this is for the deeds of our officials. I think that there is a slight change in your point regarding this. You have said that teams don't want to play with us due to security reasons and its the failure of our officials (or they are intentionally doing this) that they have been unable to prove to the world that we not unsafer than other venues. I thought I gave same figures that things are not as drastic as you considered, it seems that the same have been overseen by you. Pakistan is not playing very less matches as compared to other teams. There had been not a single incident, or the facts never portrayed it like this when Pakistan had to beg others to play with them and resultantly they have to let other win. This point was the beginning of this discussion, however, you have completely failed to say anything in its support. I earlier mentioned that we played 18 test last year and we have played a lot of cricket this year. I can only conclude that you have been miss informed. You seem to be defending some facts that do not exist at all.

Pakistan is a safe place or not as compared to other countries is not the core of this debate. I won't take about the reasons, but at least these are not related with cricket, Pakistan has developed the image of being quite an unsafe place. Please ask from Pakistanis living abroad, what the think. I know the reality is different. I think Pakistan comes second in the race of these suicidal attacks, two in Rawalpindi today's figure, so why not foreigner will consider Pakistan a dangerous place. What do you think about Iraq or Afghanistan? Even if you say that its the failure of our diplomats, cricket is by no means involved.

The last point of your post, I am very glad that at least you have come with some argument. And I have to agree in the light of examples quoted by you that there might be cases when people with full stomachs may endanger their life for lust. This means at least at one point I have changed my opinion when provided with some plausible argument.

[kamranACA]

Dear Shoaib,

I appreciate ur interest in philosphy that you have expressed in above post regarding the comparison of one's self with truth. Yes, it is in the nature of human beings. Very rare are those who do to the contrary.

But in this thread nothing started in proving anyone's own self against the truth. If you read my very first post, I clearly mentioned that this is what appears to me or can appear to others as well if they concentrate becoz deeds and acts speak. I further said that I have no proof or evidence for my statement. I am living in a country where things are not proved. Just as Ojri camp incident was not proved and in response Bahawalpur air crash is also not proved. So if you really dont support ur self against the truth, you can come to know that I at the very outset have given a clear disclaimer to which if u might have given a look, you should have not started this debate. Becoz this was not to start arguments. This was just to share what I feel. Now its your "SELF" which can't leave you sit patiencely thereby giving you a chance to show forebearance for others ideas as well. Its only a "SELF" over the "TRUTH". Becoz truth is that I shared what I felt (I agree it is more than a feeling and lesser than a file of the disclosed facts, as facts are never disclosed only acts and deeds speak) and "SELF" is that which dont make you to sit calmly. Is not it? Or again you will revert it to me?

Your all logics wud be correct for you to make such opinion but how can you rule out the chances of evolution of such logics form the base of feelings? Only becoz it appears as such to you? What a justification for comparing SELF and TRUTH and LOGIC and FEELING. Gud to mix the things in a philosphic manner. Keep it up. I give u appluase.

WWE and Cricket have already been stretched too much. I think we shud not stretch them further to tear them off. Both are games, both have own rulings, entertainment, drama, fixings, plannings, viewers, crazies, and both have people having their interest. Now we cant prove ourself much decent, civilized, mature or (i will again use) philospher by calling Cricket as game/sport and by calling WWE a movie or drama and including others in specific categories. Here again "SELF" is working against the "TRUTH" if you can understand. Since both are different avenues, matters could be handled differently but the essence is same in my opinion. You can have a different view, I dont bother. Then why you bother to make my ideas consistent with yours? Is it necessary? Can you not find satisfaction without it? I requested you to tell me if there such an issue. I will unconditionally do it for you.

So, what I said, I am still feelings it exactly same. In my view Cricket is materially a fixed or pre-planned game like many others. To calm down my expression I may say that most of the matches and most of the important matches are pre-decided/fixed. In support of my statement I already said and would again say that acts and deeds speak. You have seen, you are seeing (see current series with India) and you will be keeping on seeing it, unless PCB gets some dominating position by upgrading itself. Now these acts and deeds may appear differently to different persons at the same time. This happens so many times in our lives.

However, in past you can see such plannings and fixings if you wnat to see. But nothing would be visible if you make calculations and dont apply mind. Calculations never surface so much. You are doing audits why dont you know it. Final presentations do not speak so much about underlying realities and so much could be managed to present gud or acceptable figures. Thats the difference between due diligence and audit. The partner of Mohsin Tayyub Ali, Law Associates once asked me why due diligence is necessary to uncover so many accounting issues, un-incorporated adjustments, financial ambiguities and sorting out of hidden sekeltons while all the information is already subject to audit by the similar people. Why auditors dont ensure what the avisors suggest in due diligence. I would not write down the detailed reply which I gave to him during the meeting of consortia of advisors to a privatization but I am quoting his questions for ur understanding. Facts and figures, as you calculate, cannot arrive at the real values and results. You might not understand it. Becoz "SELF" is much important than "TRUTH".

Hope now the matter would go to some ending direction becoz the debate could go un-ending if we keep it as such.

Regards,



Kamran.

[Schuaeb]

In my opinion too, any debate or discussion which is not leading to any consensus or harmony of opinion should not be reasonlessly prolonged. I never said that it is only you who is preferring his beliefs over truth, this is something else that you, at least on this forum, are very rarely found agreeing to anyone else on any issues that are against your fundamental beliefs.

Before leaving this discussion I will like to conclude the things here according to my perception.

None of us is of the view that match fixing is not the case in international cricket. However, you are of the view that cricket and WWE both are pre-planned on similar lines. I mentioned that at least one difference is there that in cricket's case it is not disclosed to viewers, and I believe if this is the case then many of argument loose weightage. I am unable to find your remarks about it in the whole thread. I believe that fixing is there in cricket, it is also there in many other sports i.e. soccer. Further to this, my theory says that no sport which is totally preplanned can continue as a sport, if this is the situation it has to become a pre-planned stage presentation like WWE. I still wonder how after giving such illustrations one still is unable to understand the difference in WWE and cricket.

Regarding an other issue, at least I believe that so far it is not the case the PCB has to beg others to play with them and in return let other win. With thorough regrets, I have to say once again I didn't find anything concrete in its support produced by you. Pakistani recently is not playing much lesser matches as compared to other teams neither its loosing too much, I hope stats could help us at least on this issue. Security reasons I hope both of us can understand are a different issue.

Another thing as astute mentioned that he doesn't like to watch cricket as Pakistan is mostly the looser. I hope figures mentioned denies this statement altogether.

Kamran sb at stage you mentioned that you are not the one who is looking for any others support or who is afraid to continue any debate. I will say this doesn't require much of effort and perhaps the easiest thing to do. Making someone else to arrive to your conclusion requires a bit of effort. The situation I guess you intended to refer to is a similar endless debate that was there in firms section. At that time as both of us were unwilling to yield that was why I invited Mr. Pracs for his conclusion. That I believe was something courageous, and totally taken in a most negative manner by you.

I don't want to make things long, but one last point. Using words like in my opinion or I think is not only the case with you I and many other members use such disguised disclaimers.

Anyhow, at the end of this thread, I will take it as just another difference between us and differences I do take positively. So, no negative feeling, I am quite confident of this.

I think I need not to come here for any further clarification, however, if you think appropriate you should give your conclusion (as I did).

Cricket is fixed or not, or the policies of CA firms good or bad can't affect us.

Regards
Shoaib

[Astute Accountant]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Schuaeb</i>
<br />@ Astute
That statement was meant for me, and it was not ambiguous atleast nor for me. And I think I didn't deny that rather accept that. But why did you take things for you. CHORR KI DARHI MAIN TINKA

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">



Very funny Shoaib Bhai, You have "stolen" this idiom which I had written over some statement of yours. At least, you should have used your own idiom. This act simply shows that you even "steal" idioms.[p] That's why it is said AIK TU CHORRI OPPER SE SEENA ZORI.

Righty, said ULLTA CHOR KOTWAL KO DANTE[p]

By the way Shoaib Bhai, kabhi serious bhi ho jaya karain. Aur agar koi serious comment nahi tha tu at least do din khamoosh hi reh laite....[)]

[kamranACA]

Dear Shoaib,

There is no different or newly evolved conclusion. My remarks in the very first post of this thread were baiscally my own views and perceptions and were also bearing the diclaimer of lacking the sort of proof which you eventually required. There is something in shape of consistent performance and behaviour among Pakistani players and PCB which I feel very concrete for my views and there may be so many "facts and figures" and "calculations" (as I already defined) which support your views.

Now your problem is that you dont take remarks and views as some one's personal perception and ideas. You need to reach the aggregately consented conclusion based upon various members' remarks (which of course vary and can vary to a large extent) but you dont understand that in this world it is one of the most hard tasks to be achieved. We should, as member of this forum, in fact give our opinion to share our ideas and to this effect we can prolong the discussion not just for ourselves but also for others who may read such threads. This process includes giving comments for and against the topic. If some conclusion is reached in this process, it is good. But we should not very much focuss our point of view to reach our own conclusion. However, I will again say that aggregately consented conclusions are very rarely achieved.

Your post interalia included your following remarks

QUOTE

None of us is of the view that match fixing is not the case in international cricket. However, you are of the view that cricket and WWE both are pre-planned on similar lines. I mentioned that at least one difference is there that in cricket's case it is not disclosed to viewers, and I believe if this is the case then many of argument loose weightage. I am unable to find your remarks about it in the whole thread. I believe that fixing is there in cricket, it is also there in many other sports i.e. soccer. Further to this, my theory says that no sport which is totally preplanned can continue as a sport, if this is the situation it has to become a pre-planned stage presentation like WWE. I still wonder how after giving such illustrations one still is unable to understand the difference in WWE and cricket.

UNQUOTE

I could not understand what do you mean by saying "that in cricket's case it is not disclosed to viewers". Do you mean it is explicitly disclosed or announced to viewers in advance at WWE that which player will win the game? Do you think so? I can percieve that you dont mean it as crudely as I said. However, if you say that it could be guessed from the statements, forecasts, behaviours or subsequent disclosures made by wrestlers or other reporting etc then which one of these things is not evidenced in cricket???????? After every crucial/important match/tournament newspapers write down the doubted stories. Even at the start of the big tournaments like WC one can read in newspapers the activities of bookies at the veneues. Do you read newspapers? I think you must. If we talk about statements of players then again in cricket so many players have agreed such facts. It is again not a hidden thing in contrast to WWE. I could really not understand what point of differnce you want me to understand. Can you help please?

As far as the matter of PCB is concerned, I at the very outset said I cannot prove my statement with evidences. It's solely my view which I expressed and this may not totally be agreed by any one else. This was just to share what I feel about the situation and the point which makes me to feel it is the way we are playing and arranging games. I said, you have seen it, you are seeing it and you will be seeing it. Let's concentrate Pakistan India current series. Let's see what happens.

You talk about figures of matches played last year. Yes we played gud matches last year I agree but if you see last five years and compare this whole period with others you might get to know what I want to say. Our players' records show that they have played far lesser than other players of the world even where the careers of our players lasted for more than 15+ years. And while comparing last five years, if you find that currently the figure of matches has gone up than the previous years then again this, in my view, substantiate what I said about how PCB has now been arranging series/matches. It may not appear logical to you.

I think we should leave this topic open for readers. Conclusion is not necessary to reach in such sort of topics. Of course this is not a professional or other vital discussion.

Best regards,



KAMRAN.

[Schuaeb]

Dear Kamran,

Debate is over, so don't worry. Your point sounds valid that an aggregately consented conclusion shouldn't always be the target. Rightly said it is at most occasions not possible to arrive to such conclusion. A second approach may be that in all such discussions when it becomes certain that things are being prolonged reasonlessly should give their conclusions and then get aside. I mean its a bit better that an attempt to conclude the things is better than living them totally open. That is what I guess has been done here before this post.

Now without any intentions to prolong things further just some clarifications. The question you asked about WWE i.e. "Do you mean it is explicitly disclosed or announced to viewers in advance at WWE that which player will win the game? Do you think so?" I suppose should have been asked much earlier. I think then we prolonged things without properly understanding each other’s views. My answer is we watch movies do we know what's gonna be the end? No we don't. Though its very much known that the end has been directed and doesn't base on any future uncertainty. This I think should not be the case in live sports (provided they are not fixed). In WWE its never none to viewers that who is gonna win as movie viewers are don't know the end. However, in case of WWE unlike cricket and other sports viewers no that the end has been predecided and doesn't rest on how the match proceeds. I guess you'll agree on this point. So this was the difference I intended to highlight 3 or 4 times in this thread. I rephrase my answer WWE majority of viewers know that the result is pre planned and they are watching a show. Cricket At least the management tries to portray it as a genuine game. So my theory remains as it is that it is not possible for any sport to continue if a substantial part of it is pre planned. If it is the case it has to become a stage show like WWE. So, according to me the example of WWE here supports my point instead of yours. Your point according to me I repeat is as WWE, a preplanned show is successful to attract so many viewers then any other pre planned sport also. I think after above clarification this comment completely loose weight.

Pakistan has played lesser cricket in 2004 and 2005. But Kamran it never means that it proves a bit of what you said. Pakistan still played more than some other test playing nations. And there were years in recent past where Australia and India played lesser cricket. I don't know how only on the basis of playing some less cricket such things can be assumed. I have told that decisive factors are the sponsorship and security issues.

Infact in the beginning by agreeing to the point that some matches might be fixed I justified your's and astute's point for not watching cricket.

If match fixing is not the case then we should show some more moral courage to accept the defeats of our team.