Is ICMAP bigger than CIMA?

[awaisaftab]

No problem dear but I again request from ad2478 to come forward

[kamranACA]

ad2478 / Awais / Astute

Dears,

The opinion carried or expressed by any member about any college, institute or qualification is always personal and based upon one's own understanding and real life experience. Such opinion is neither binding nor compulsorily correct.

I opined that every UK qualification cannot be better than comparable Pakistani qualifications (and vice versa). This is my own view and certainly has basis on which it is framed. Similarly, I feel CIMA is better than ICMAP. This is also not comulsorily be a correct view since it is a personal viewpoint that has been expressed on a public forum without humiliating any of these institutes. Why ACCAs are not better than CAs and why CIMA is better than ICMAP can be discussed on another thread within the limits of decency, if needed. However, this would again be a discussion based upon facts from both sides and we know such discussions do not and can not conclude anything since this is the essense of public forums. The real results can be gathered from market based evidence only.

Like-wise I have no objection if any one of you feels that he or his knowledge or his institute is larger than ICAP or CIMA or any other person or institute; or is even larger than life. This makes no issue until the discussion remains within the limits. I hope this matter stands resolved.

The rough language used at any thread about members or any professional body or institute should be monitored by Admin, which hopefully be doing his work. If I have done so, it should also strictly be viewed.

As far as Hadees quoted by Astute is concerned; it was once quoted by me as well where we discussed and researched various sources and gathered the evidences for which it is called Zaeef. We learn life long; there is no issue in accepting it; I also learnt after a great deal of search that this Hadees is not found in any of Sahi Books of Ahaadees. However, very renowned Ulema have also agreed that although it is called Zaeef but denying its existence will be incorrect since it does not collide with the actual message of Islam and Propeht (PBUH) about education. However, this is the positive view only. Sahi Books of Ahaadees have quoted some Ahaadees about education. One of those is

"seek knowledge from your birth (swing) to your death (grave)".

This Hadees is enough for us to understand what Islam requires. However, definition of religion its messages and its interpretations differ from person to person and sect to sect, so we cannot and should not go a long way in debating negative discussions. Otherwise why this Hadees was called Zaeef and why it was not taken in Sahi Books has some contradictory historical statements, even from renowned people. Since this is very delicate matter, I dont wish to go at length on this issue.

Regards,



KAMRAN.

[awaisaftab]

Kamran/,Astute/Retarded

Dears

As far as CIMA is concerned I think it is more better than ACCA. I know in UK mostly employers give preference to CMA's of CIMA on ACCA's. A survey has conducted in UK in this regard that shows that more than 60% employers give the preference to CMA's while recruiting for accounts jobs.
The results of this survey had been quoted previously by ICMAP in the ads for admissions. In my opinion ICMAP has most warm relations with CIMA than any other institute of world. CIMA is more popular than ICMAP at global level. But in Job market of Pakistan CMA's of ICMAP has more worth than CMA's of CIMA. In my opinion CIMA is easier than ICMAP. Many persons who fail to complete ICMA switch over to CIMA and within actual time complete it. The main reason of low scope of CIMA in our country's job market is the fact that corporate and tax laws of Pakistan are not being taught and CIMA cannot get popularity in the country. Mostly students who want to get some UK qualification in accounts get admission in ACCA. I always say that CMA's of CIMA are counterpart of CMA's of ICMAP. Majority of students of CIMA, who wish to start their career in Pakistan, also get the membership of ICMAP after completing CIMA. I have full regard for the CMA's of CIMA and often consider them future members of ICMAP in near or far future time.


As far as the comparison between CIMA and ICMAP is concerned I will strongly recommend that the same yardsticks should be used for comparison between ACCA and ICAP. If one uses different yardsticks and standards for these two comparisons then it will give birth to doubt that one has made double standards.

Regards,

Awais Aftab

[awaisaftab]

Good methamatical expression of views [^]. Agreed !!!!!

[kamranACA]

Awais

Personal opinions (either mine or yours) don't have to change the facts since facts could be different than any one's perception.

If you want to objectively discuss that why ACCA is not comparable and why CIMA is comparable and better, I am available to let you know my understanding which would certainly be un-biased.

However, it would expectedly (again) remain un-settled and I feel it will lack objectivity as well.

I would simply reiterate that only open market based evidence can lead to a decision and market conditions are never hidden from any one regardless of whatever debate we do and whatever analysis we produce.

The appointments on grade 17/18 in public sector have to remain out of such count since a quality finance professional (having significant demand and worth in market) does not opt for such a pay scale unless he is intended to do JEHAD or feels no issue in standing on the negative pole for bridging the gap. Most of cases where such jobs are opted for are driven due to lesser market demand in open market conditions. I, however, cannot deny the existence of rare cases that are always expected to exist.

Decision of doing JEHAD is real difficult since it tantamount to a life long quest. However, getting to a negative pole is what we generally witness all around. If myself or any body else is in a state of denial, this makes no difference.

I hope you will not take my words negative.

Regards,


KAMRAN.

[hshamsi]

@all of above

well with kind respect, i'd like everyone to read the following

Interview Article

<b>Introduction of Mr. Badruddin Fakhri… Ex President, ICMAP</b>

Accountants play a very vital role in the economy. Badruddin Fakhri is yet another famous name from Pakistan in the field of Accounts. He is the President of Institute of Cost & Management Accountants of Pakistan. He has been rendering his valuable services as Technical Advisor in the Education Committee of International Federation of Accountants. He has also been elected as Vice President of South Asian Federation of Accounts in its recent meeting held in Delhi. He was President of Pakistan Institute of Public Finance Accountants for 2001. He has written many Research Articles on different aspects of the economy, especially on Cement Industry.

<b>KalPoint Why is it that you call ICAP as big brothers, and why they enjoy more market acceptance as compared to ICMA?</b>

Mr. Fakhri Truth of the matter is Chartered Accountancy profession is more older than the Management Accounting profession. So, the older has the right to be called big brother. Their market acceptability is more in Pakistan mainly because of two reasons. Firstly, their profession is older as said before. Secondly, the training their students get in articleship provides them edge over the students of ICMAP. There is however a need to differentiate between audit and accounting functions. Audit is certainly their specialization. The management of corporate sector has however started realizing that our specialization is Management Accounting which is more useful for the management. This has already happened in U.K., U.S.A. and Canada. In U.K., as well as India 70%, Chartered Accountants are in practice and only 30% are in jobs. The situation is reverse in Pakistan because practicing business in our country has yet to realize its full potential. Since more Chartered Accountants are available for jobs, they are dominating the job market currently. However, most of the business groups have recognized the potentials of management accounting and have started engaging management accounts for almost all the positions of Finance & Accounting in their companies.


<b>KalPoint Students of ICAP are usually given Internships by their Institutes, but that’s not the case with ICMA. Why?</b>

Mr. Fakhri They are blessed that they have audit business wherein they train their students. The audit experience makes the difference. Last year nearly 300 internships were arranged for students. With the passage of time we will make sure that all our students either get practical experience at job or get structured training in corporate sector either through internship or through cost audit practicing firms.


<b>KalPoint It is true that a lot of students get in to ICAP or ICMA, start their education, work side by side, gain experience and then discontinue their education saying that they don’t need it and make their careers only on the basis of experience that they get? If yes, then why?</b>

Mr. Fakhri Students who are unable to qualify may be giving such excuses, otherwise nobody can deny the value of qualifications of ICAP or ICMA.

<b>(m annexing the link for the authentication of above)
http//education.kalpoint.com/pow/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=37</b>

well it is widely accepted that ICAP is on the Top in the list of professional bodies, bt yet seriously dnt know y ppl keep on continuing such arguments.. anyways we accept wat is widely accepted in our economy, n for those who dnt accept actually they 're livin in their own world, they can formulate watever that want. no one needs to clarify or give arguments as they're sure they r rite!

kind regards.

[kamranACA]

Hina

Mr. Fakhri is a very nice and senior finance professional. I know him since the times when he successfully rescheduled the debt obligations of his ex-employer "Pioneer Cement" based at Joharabad (Khushab). The way he dealt the case was remarkable.

However, I think he is also a chartered accountant besides having ICMAP membership.

His comments are nothing but acceptance of a factual position. When we cannot rotate the conditions overnight (positively), there is no harm to accept the truth.

Regards,


KAMRAN.

[hshamsi]

@ kamran

yes its fact n m confused y ppl dnt accept the fact?! or they accept it bt they cant digest?! is it a proper way to respond? or wat..

regards

[tariqsohail]

What a calculation!!!, good Job.

With due respect to everybody's opinion;

According to my point of view all countries prefering their own qualifications. Important matter is where you want to live & work. If you want to live in Pakistan then ICAP & ICMAP will win the race, in U.K ICAEW, CIMA, ACCA, in USA CPA, CMA, CFA, CIA and similarly in other countries.

All accounting bodies are good and making efforts to benefit their members, so apparently there should be no comparison but if we want to think about globally accepted qualification then the ball goes into the pocket of U.K, USA, Canada etc. etc.

Everybody loves it's own country, all of us are Pakistani and we are happy and proud to be a Pakistani but at the same time we need to understand harsh realities of this world which is called a global village in the recent times. We need to understand the economic strenght of our country because acceptance of a qualification is very much attached to the economic strenght of a country.

For example U.K or USA qualified accountants are getting job chances much more than our qualified accountants due to strenght of their economy and if they (U.K, USA accountants)wants to do job outside their country like Canada, Australia, M.E etc. they are prefereed in selection as compare to our qualifications.

Reaching on decisions about worth of a qualification solely on the basis of the fact that passing percentage of CIMA is high and ICMAP is low, students can complete CIMA in a much lesser time as compare to ICMAP plus CIMA is U.K & ICMAP is a Pakistani qualification is is not a correct yardstick. Important thing is that how much we benefited in the market and knowledege point of view after qualifying from these institution. All above insitutions are very good, very old and making progress in their goals and have different area of playing their roles.

ICAP & ICMAP having totally different audiances & different working so as per my personal point of view we should not bring ICAP, ACCA etc. in our discussion if we are discussing cost & management accounting bodies.

Regards,
Sohail

[kamranACA]

Dear Sohail,

I have not based any comparison on frivolous and prejudiced grounds like who is bigger, what is curriculum, which one is qualified in shorter time etc. Rather, since the very outset of my participation in forum discussions, I always said that such analysis has to be based upon open market based evidence. Further, throughout all my attendance at this forum, I always clarified that my prime focus during any discussion is on people living and settling within Pakistan. I don't discuss situation at foreign countries since the real majority has to work locally.

You have seen localized and globalize markets and you must know by virtue of your experience that the above statement has to retain its validity regardless of whatever arguments we make.

Here people overwhelmingly discuss and feel proud in making points for the audit rights of private limited companies having paid up capital of pennies. Can you imagine what a joke it is when it comes to compete the big brother? Instead of focusing on the simple un-biased knowledge provoking query, which they must be knowing because of their connectivity, the drift of thought goes on to make comparisons with what they can never compete regardless of whatever they pray or do.

I mean, is not it strange when regardless of inferiority complexes (which no one of other pin points while raising any valid question) they feel and believe that their members sitting in regulating authorities can turn the tables. If they are so desperate then why the tables could not be turned since early 60s?

I again say the audit right of entities having pennies makes no difference and I don't ever say that they don't have such rights. However, is not it suspicious that why the circulars / notifications issued in 1999 (if any) could not make a part of Companies (amendment) Ordinance, 2002 which consolidated all relevant changes? I mean they must be having such notification to make statements, and they must be having so-called very powerful regulators but why they could never regularize such amendments to make it a part of law. Is not it a failure at the part of such so-called powerful regulators?

I agree that we should and we must keep regard of every professional body and its members but we should also avoid getting into controversies. When some professionals will be called "GADHEY" certainly the craps uttering out such mess would be called "GADHEY KAY BACHAY" more specifically when their own past president openly accepted that they are younger brothers i.e. "CHHOTAY GADHEY" or in other words "GADHEY KAY BACHAY".

I am sorry for writing these words but these are only meant to make the members (having positive mindset) realize that what the factual situation is AND what should be the way out to discuss the matters on forums.

As a last point, let me tell you that I have always seen CIMAs doing CA from ICAP or ICAEW for complimenting their qualification (although they in fact have a bit different specialization). I can quote a number of real life examples where it has been done. One member of this forum is also doing same thing. Here a comment was given that the majority of CIMAs opts for membership of ICMAP. Although it is neither a big issue nor it is so vital to be discussed, but can any body quote only five such examples with their membership numbers? This is again a simple query and must not be taken negatively, as our ICMAP brothers normally do.

Thanks for bearing with me.

Regards,


KAMRAN.

[tariqsohail]

Dear Kamran,

First of all my point is to just separate local & international effect which I feel mixed in the above discussion.

Secondly as a member of couple of cost & management accounting bodies at local & international level, I never feel to compare this with CA/CPA because both qualifications are totally different in their working nature. Though both are accountants but with different study and different scope.

Coming towards ICMAP & ICAP, both are pakistani institutes, both are wonderful & both are equally respectful for me as an accountant.

Regards,
Sohail

[kamranACA]

Sohail

You are always positive, forward looking and constructive.


Regards,


KAMRAN.

[tariqsohail]

Thanks Mr. Kamran.

I hope my fellow members/students of cost & management accounting will understand my personal point of view which I describe in my above post.

Regards,
Sohail

[awaisaftab]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />Dear Sohail,

I have not based any comparison on frivolous and prejudiced grounds like who is bigger, what is curriculum, which one is qualified in shorter time etc. Rather, since the very outset of my participation in forum discussions, I always said that such analysis has to be based upon open market based evidence. Further, throughout all my attendance at this forum, I always clarified that my prime focus during any discussion is on people living and settling within Pakistan. I don't discuss situation at foreign countries since the real majority has to work locally.

You have seen localized and globalize markets and you must know by virtue of your experience that the above statement has to retain its validity regardless of whatever arguments we make.

Here people overwhelmingly discuss and feel proud in making points for the audit rights of private limited companies having paid up capital of pennies. Can you imagine what a joke it is when it comes to compete the big brother? Instead of focusing on the simple un-biased knowledge provoking query, which they must be knowing because of their connectivity, the drift of thought goes on to make comparisons with what they can never compete regardless of whatever they pray or do.

I mean, is not it strange when regardless of inferiority complexes (which no one of other pin points while raising any valid question) they feel and believe that their members sitting in regulating authorities can turn the tables. If they are so desperate then why the tables could not be turned since early 60s?

I again say the audit right of entities having pennies makes no difference and I don't ever say that they don't have such rights. However, is not it suspicious that why the circulars / notifications issued in 1999 (if any) could not make a part of Companies (amendment) Ordinance, 2002 which consolidated all relevant changes? I mean they must be having such notification to make statements, and they must be having so-called very powerful regulators but why they could never regularize such amendments to make it a part of law. Is not it a failure at the part of such so-called powerful regulators?

I agree that we should and we must keep regard of every professional body and its members but we should also avoid getting into controversies. When some professionals will be called "GADHEY" certainly the craps uttering out such mess would be called "GADHEY KAY BACHAY" more specifically when their own past president openly accepted that they are younger brothers i.e. "CHHOTAY GADHEY" or in other words "GADHEY KAY BACHAY".

I am sorry for writing these words but these are only meant to make the members (having positive mindset) realize that what the factual situation is AND what should be the way out to discuss the matters on forums.

As a last point, let me tell you that I have always seen CIMAs doing CA from ICAP or ICAEW for complimenting their qualification (although they in fact have a bit different specialization). I can quote a number of real life examples where it has been done. One member of this forum is also doing same thing. Here a comment was given that the majority of CIMAs opts for membership of ICMAP. Although it is neither a big issue nor it is so vital to be discussed, but can any body quote only five such examples with their membership numbers? This is again a simple query and must not be taken negatively, as our ICMAP brothers normally do.

Thanks for bearing with me.

Regards,


KAMRAN.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">


Kamran/Tariq/Retarded


I never said that the members of ICMAP in regulatory bodies are so powerful that they can turn the table rather one of my post on October, 17 I posted the following material

<i><font color="red">I often said to one of my friend, who was working with SECP but now has given resign, that CMA's working in SECP are so powerful that they can issue a circular to give full fledge audit rights to practicing CMA's, anyhow its a joke I know very well about provisions of section 254 of CO,1984</font id="red"></i>


See I never said the words which Mr. Kamran wants to put in my mouth. Now you are accepting the audit rights of CMA (Pak). But some days ago you were denying these rights. You complained that I am not giving the answers of your Simple questions but I have been trying to answer your questions for one week. But I asked two question in my post of October,17. But you still not replied them. You often said that you are unbiased but if you are unbiased why you participated on this thread when a discussion about ICMAP was still in process on the other thread. You are a senior person and I know you are a qualified CA and partner in a CA firm so being a senior member it was your responsibility that not post your comment on this thread. Since it was the discussion of CMA's (Pak & UK). That is only you on this thread who is not a CMA.

You say that you are not in favour of comparison of local and foreign qualifications . I am fully agreed with you but why are you comparing CIMA with ICMAP.

In one of your yesterday post you talked about the officials of grade 17 and 18 I am still unable to understand why you did it. But as far as SECP is concerned in SECP Special Pay Scale System persists and average salaries are almost double as compare to those of ministries of Federal Govt. that’s why professional accountant often prefer joining SECP.

I think you are well aware with the job market of Pakistan just take the newspaper of 1 month you will never find any top position in accounts where CIMA is required qualification. Then why are you preferring CIMA on ICMAP.

You say

"As a last point, let me tell you that I have always seen CIMAs doing CA from ICAP or ICAEW for complimenting their qualification (although they in fact have a bit different specialization"

By quoting these words in fact you have endorsed my point of view.
As far as your challenge in concerned I can give dozens of examples of CIMA members who do ICMA after completing CIMA. But in one of my post I have said that it is not a court room. Who will examine my and your proofs? There is no unbiased person on this forum. Although you are a CA and play a role of refry at least on this thread but you have said in one of thread, that initiated by me entitled "Professional/Academic Qualifications of Members”, that you have some kind of blood relation with Astute Accountant and he is perusing CIMA.

Remember I always use yardstick of corporate job market for analysis and never use the public sector job market as yardstick.

In last I request to all members please stop these kinds of destructive discussions and positively participate on the forum. Yesterday I wanted to post my comments on this thread but due to sue side attack on Islamic International University Islamabad I was too much disturb because many of my relatives and friends are teachers and students of the university. In this worst situation of country it do not suit professionals to do personal attack on each other and pass negative remarks towards the institutes of the country.
We are all Pakistani and we should be proud on it. ICAP and ICMAP are both the own institute of this country and both the institutes and their students/members are working for the prosperity and economic development of the country.


Regards,

Awais Aftab

[awaisaftab]

The persons who have the memberships of both ICMAP and CA it is their practice they always prefer their first institute. One of teacher of IMCAP Islamabad has the membership of both ICMAP and ICAP but he always advocates ICAP because first he became the member of ICAP