Is ICMAP bigger than CIMA?

awaisaftab · 10-23-2009, 02:29 AM

Dear Kamran

It was my presemption that you belong from Lahore. But it may be wrong then I accept my mistake. Remember Insan khata ka putla ha. But best is one who accepts his mistakes.

Kamran it was my practice whenever I addressed you I gave honour to you, because you are most senior member of the forum, but it was you who started personal attacks on me. Even you deleberately misinterpreted many times my views. My memory is not short I remember that when one member passed very worst remarks about me you personally requested from him that delete his remarks but here the case is differenc and VICE VERSA.

Regards

awaisaftab · 10-23-2009, 02:36 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mujahid
 Bas dekh lo.. Nigah-e-Mard-e-Momin kaisi hoti hai. [D]
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By the way tumhare sher pe mujhe bhe ek sher yad agaya.

Phool ki Patti se Cut Sakta Ha Heeray Ka Jigar
Marde Nadan Pe Kalam-e-Naram O Nazuk Be Asar

Mujahid · 10-23-2009, 03:50 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awaisaftab
 <blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mujahid
 Bas dekh lo.. Nigah-e-Mard-e-Momin kaisi hoti hai. [D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

By the way tumhare sher pe mujhe bhe ek sher yad agaya.

Phool ki Patti se Cut Sakta Ha Heeray Ka Jigar
Marde Nadan Pe Kalam-e-Naram O Nazuk Be Asar 
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Fazool mein free hone ki waja?

kamranACA · 10-23-2009, 03:50 AM

Awais,

Can you go back to all posts of this thread to find out how the discussion has been given this direction. Nothing has gone out of the sight. If you are so ignorant of the quite recent history then you can easily figure it out. If you don't asses such an ability inside then don't prolong this RATTAA RATAAYAA sentence which you know will never provide a refuge. This is just an advice; decision is yours!

I never disregarded you in spite of certain things done and expressed by you in past which without any reason could have humiliated the situation. I always realized that you belong to a good family and those traits do exist in your discussions. However, based upon our discussions at the forum, I always felt that you need further exposure and experience of life with open mind to understand a lot more than what you assume you have done. This is my assessment to which you need not to agree. You can carry similar or dissimilar remarks about me.

There was no purpose of your quotation of Hadees in the matter you did (which you also did wrongly). If nothing is sacred for me then it's a matter between me and Allah. Don't you bother for it please. I don't want to put this burden on your shoulders. Just chill out. If some one has such a passion of quoting Ahaadees then he should first of all apply them to his ownself. Further, why no Hadees ever came to your mind with regards to any other incident happening on this forum. Is not it strange?

"Fakhar" is an arabic word if you know of it. It has a lot of meanings and can be used alternatively. Fakhar's only one translation in English is "proud". The differentiation of GHAROOR and FAKHAR which you have produced has nothing to do with the point which I emphasized since both are prohibited on religious achievements or on having DARJAAT near ALLAH. You try to find the Hadees where Prophet PBUH said that I am the last Prophet (PBUH) of ALLAH and I have no "Fakhar" (Proud) over it (mafhoom). If being the last Prophet (PBUH) is not a matter of Fakhar (proud) then kia ham, kia hamaarey Ulema aur kia ham sab ke auqaat. Don't prolong commiting this sin. Again a suggestion only.

I wonder if ADMIN came to you crying and weeping that I don't leave insisting them to do something. Can you please let us know publicly such an act of ADMIN? So that they may confirm or reject your lame excuse.

With the positive intent I always believe that the moderators should play their role actively on the public forums if they don't want to make it a messy place. It does not mean that I don't know how to deal the bugs (whoever it is). I know it much better than so manys here but I feel situation should not go to that edge and Admin should contribute their own role for the better outcome of the forum. If Admin feels it makes no issue then it's no issue at all. You see it's no issue.

Mujahid/Rabia

There is an english phrase "no one kicks a dead dog".

So, I suggest, just forget the one who has already been kicked by Admin during activeness of his membership.

Regards to all of you.

Kamran.

Edited for spelling mistake.

Mujahid · 10-23-2009, 03:53 AM

[D] Kamran bhai ki english sun k mujhe pata nahee kyun dexter aur mojo jojo ki yaad aajati hai.

Yaar kamran bhai, aik baat poochi thi aap se. Palat k poocha bhi nahee [(]

kamranACA · 10-23-2009, 04:09 AM

Shahbaz

You will certainly be replied very soon.

All regrets for the undue delay.

Regards,

KAMRAN.

kamranACA · 10-23-2009, 07:28 PM

ad2478

I have all the regards for your viewpoint and also agree that education system at Pakistan (specially public sector supported) is far far behind the western and Amercian systems. There is no doubt in it.

However, certain institutes/colleges/universities are either maintaining the level equal to or better than those western standards or have following similar systems with strict compliance. The names of institutions like LUMS and IBA must not be ignored. Similarly the standard of colleges like K.E., Atchison, Lawrence college and schools like Convent and Grammer cannot be denied. Further to it, many foreign schooling systems have started operations in Pakistan.

The only painful thing is that all educational institutions having such standard are so costly that even the higher midddle class students cannot join them. You must be knowing the fees of schools like Shuafat (and Universities like LUMS) that were or have started working at Lahore etc.

Our GOVT is not in a position to increase number of such schools and negotiate favorable terms with them (or enhancing the level of Public Sector institutions) so that at least students having a particular merit level be accomodated. In fact GOVT's policy on education has always been so weak with no priority of this important matter over other issues. Education is said to be subsidized but the level of quality is like something given to general beggers as KHAIRAAT.

We have problems in setting priorities as a nation. We obtain and consume loans/grants of millions of dollars on small purposeless "waste water channels" (Naaliyaan), useless dispenseries which provide nothing except contraceptives to conntrol birth rate, and for handling other such issues. We never try to use such financing in cash generating (or at least cash saving) projects like

-Water Dams (saving billions of rupees on electricity produced through thermal generation as well as handeling water resources for much improved agricultural activity thereby saving electricty and resources for running tube wells),

-Improved railway systems (so that people get better service and GOVT earn better revenue because of increased preference of public),

_Eucation sector (which will provide us returns of billions in future due to educated human capital),

-Steel sector (where Pakistan Steel is producing only 20plus percent of total country's requirement and that also on causing huge loss making)

-Like imports (where billions are wasted against un-necessary import bill simply bacause the elites who import luxury items are not allowing to enhance tariff rates thereby to protect localized industry and products)

- So forth and so on.

However, regardless of all impediments and hurdles and difficulties we cannot deny the importance of the institutes that are producing world calss professionals to whom the world's best bodies recognize and take a pride for getting them to their decision making boards. We have icons in profession that were produced by none but the institutes like ICAP. If a Pakistani (based upon his local qualification) is or was sitting in decision making, standard setting and guidance issuing boards and commitee of world's most elevated bodies (like IFAC and others), their strategic commmitees and sub commitees then the quality of such institutes has to be accepted and saluted. Pakistani Partners of some big 4 firms are heading the whole of the region's member firms (of their network). This region normally includes 15 to 20 countries including India and China. This is a grace of Pakistan. If some qualification or their members at western countries are doing good job it makes no difference for us since we have to see and evaluate that what their members at Pakistan are up to and what achievements they have to claim for.

This can be a long discussion a portion of which I am writing only for the knowledge of readers. We have to base our conclusions on facts keeping in view the achievements in the presence of all challenges and problems.

As far as my view about CIMA (its position locally) is concerned, I am still of the same view AND, regardless of having all the honour for your revised opinion, don't tend to agree with it

Regards,

KAMRAN.

awaisaftab · 10-23-2009, 08:30 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ad2478
 This fight is getting longer ...i want to say one thing that i feel my seniors are missing the techniques of doing analysis here. WHen the guy started the thread he is actually talking about UK vs Pakistan professional qualification. Though one can say that Pakistani CA or CIMA is better etc but on the basis of ground realities we cant say that. (i hope again i will not be called a boot licker). We will have to see the position of UK and Pakistan in business world. No doubt UK is the well developed grown economy and their education system is also far a head. I can say that because i have studied in both systems. A levels and before switching to A levels i was doing ICOM. I know it feels hurting but we have to accept that constant research and development in education system brings more advancement and global acceptance.

At the moment we are actually doing the comparison of ICMAP and CIMA in PAKISTAN so obviously ICMAP will have advantege. and if we were in UK then obviously CIMA would have preference over ICMAP. On the other hand if we rather the making PAKISTAN or UK job market the basis of analysis if we think of global market then obviously CIMA will be preferred.
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Dear ad2478

I am agree with your point of view. I think you have realized the situation. It is true in UK CIMA will be prefered and Pakistan ICMA will be preferred. After passing CIMA you can persue ICMA if you want to do job but you can also go UK where you will have ofcourse a good opourtunity.

As far as education sector of Pakistan is concerned here are many problems. Ussually in Pakistan majority of parents who belong from middle class admit their children in private schools. These private schools have their own story. These schools are looting the money of others. In federal capital Islamabad the situation is some how. In schools of federal government teachers are appointed through Federal Public Service commission and good pay scales are offered them. This is the reasons why even wealthy people admit their children in government school. In islamabad you will find highly qualified teachers in school and some of them are so highly qualified that I think their place should be colleges. Beside it I think islamabad is only city of Pakistan where people look for sources and approaches for the admission of their children in government schools.
Furhter in Islamabad the system of Ilsamabad Model Colleges for Girs and Boys IMCB'S and IMCG's exists which is also a good experience. These model colleges offer education from class one to class 12.

I am not praising Islamabad rather I want to say that these experience should be applied in other cities
As far as

kamranACA · 10-23-2009, 09:08 PM

Awais

Please do share with us the methodology of the schooling system you have posted in last message. May it be helpful for others, so sharing, would be of general benefit.

Regards,

KAMRAN.

tariqsohail · 10-23-2009, 10:34 PM

That's true that certain Pakistani institutions are maintaining their standard of education which are mentioned above by few members of this forum but the problem is not only the standard of education, there is another problem and that is strength of economy, and country's image in the global business world (It is sad but we have to realize that we loose great worth since last couple of years due to law & order problems in Pakistan).

Acceptance of a country's qualification outside Pakistan/internationally is greatly attached with employer's expousre to Pakistan's qualification. There is no doubut that Pakistani CMA's/ACA's are best accountants available in the local and international market due to their technically sound knowledge but the problem is that who is hiring accountants internationally?, and we all knows that mostly people responsible or being involved in hiring process in multinationals or local companies of that region belongs to different nationalities and first they prefer their own country's qualification and then they look for globally recognized qualifications.

Above threshold of selection is not limited to Pakistani CMA (ICMAP) but this also equally applicable to Pakistani ACA (ICAP).

Due to some recent steps (MOU/MRA) taken by our prestigious institutes definitely help their members in gaining better ground internationally though these steps are greatly opposed by few people in Pakistan, but this is the need of the hour & I am in great favour of these steps.

Regards,
Sohail

kamranACA · 10-24-2009, 05:40 AM

Dears

Lately I had been discussing that certain people who (to some of us) appear to be mujaahid will be the cause of major destruction. We can agree that foreign elements are involved in our political unrest and law and order detioration. However, eventually we (our those people) are responsible.

Some guys used to show anger and retaliance to support such so called "Ameer-ul-Momineens". Situation will be magnified with the passage of every day unless and until their supply is not disrupted and they are not crushed.

Ad2478

My major portion of discussions had been about Pakistan's economy and market situation. However, I can quote you a number of examples where our ICAP's CAs competed ICAEW's and secured the job even at UK. (Leave Malaysia or what, I am talking about UK). Pracs, a member of this very forum was Manager (may be now senior manager) in one of big 4 firms right in the heart of UK (London). Securing such a job at London means something. Some of my very close friends are at UK having lucrative jobs only on the basis of ICAP's CA. So there is no rule that ICAEW's member will be preferred without any reason.

It can be discussed further with all figures and numbers but I believe it is not needed.

However, as Tariq Sohail has explained there are so many political and economical issues for which muslims and Pakistanis face tough times. This does not make us to corelate it with capabilities etc.

Why Pakistani universities are not in top 500 has similar attributes. You see no body will come to Pakistan for getting admission in these universities. How these can be included in top universities? But this does not mean that universities are not upto that level. Certainly no one prefers to come, study and settle at an economy like us. You may have to study how (on which criteria) such 500 universities have been ranked.

Thank you for your reply.

Regards,

Kamran.

kamranACA · 10-24-2009, 05:50 AM

Just to add; a partner of KPMG Islamabad (ICAP member) named Kashif Jahangiri has joined KPMG International at Ireland as DIRECTOR TAXES quite recently.

I know him as he wrote a very good book on Taxation along with Mr. Safiullah (senior Partner KPMG at Islamabad).

Can you understand what it means to secure such a position? Would there be no ICAEW's CA in competition?

Realities are different than perception. You may check out ICAP members directory.

Regards,

Osama Rules · 10-24-2009, 07:06 AM

[/quote]

Osama, Death is inevitable, which can neither be prognosticated nor prorogued, So no fear should exist, when no reaction over the action can be taken.
Remember, has done, whatever should have been done(By Allah), is being done, whatever should be done (by Allah) and will be done, whatever is about to be done regardless of whatever steps are taken to getaway from inevitables.

Also remember, you cannot die, unless your time has come, Fortune is written before 50,000 years of the birth of a person i.e. all the things are certain. No one can die before time, no one can earn more than written, no one can die even before eating the last meal of his/her fortune.

When every thing is pre planned then why fear to die(atleast).

[/quote]
Salam,

Well i agree that death is indeed inevitable & one will die at his/her prescribed time BUT that does not mean i go & stand in the middle of highway!! That's no way of living...

The concept that fortune is pre written certainly does not mean that one should not strive hard to achieve his/her objectives...

Once my teacher said to me that we should not go deep into this topic until & unless we r thoroughly versed with the teachings of islam,otherwise u may end up asking who is ALLAH??

Well i think their is wisdom in those words of her.....

Regards.

awaisaftab · 10-24-2009, 02:46 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 Awais

Please do share with us the methodology of the schooling system you have posted in last message. May it be helpful for others, so sharing, would be of general benefit.

Regards,

KAMRAN.
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Kamran

Methodology of educational system in Islamabad is different from the schools of provincial governments. But it is not like elite class schools. If you pay good remuneration to the teachers they teach with heart. Due to good pay scales and honour, given to teachers, even very qualified people prefer to do jobs in school. I remember that some of our teachers have more than one master degree. In some of them later appointed in colleges.
Secondly schools in Capital have good buildings, appropriate furniture, good laboratories equipped with unto date apparatuses, computer labs and libraries full of thousands of books.

In the colleges of Islamabad some professors have foreign Ph.D degrees..

Thirdly appropriate concentration is given to co-curricular activities. Federal Board each year arranges science exhibition in collaboration with Ministry of Science and Technology. Beside it Quiz, naat,debating and Husn-e-Qirat competitions at schools and inter school level are organized. Parents Teachers Associations (PTA's) are also working effectively in many schools. Specially in IMCB's/IMCG's. Annual sports competition for, schools and colleges are is arranged each year.

The above were some main features of government schools of Islamabad.

I think you must know about the fact that first the system of model traffic police was introduced in Islamabad then it is now being implemented in other cities of Pakistan. So in my view if the education system in whole country in reorganized on the basis of educational traditions of government schools of Islamabad then we can make appropriate progress in education sector.

But there is a need of progressive education policy for whole country. We have not even decided whether the exams of matric should be taken on annual or combine basis. Although I donât like General ZIa but he Islamized the education system and that was his good work. Before Zia regime communism and socialism was promoted in our educational institutions. Communists were so strong that communists teachers in colleges and universities openly said âThere is no God (Nauzubillah Min Zalik)â. It was Zia who took steps toward illumination of education. Chapters on Islamic ideology, Supremacy of Allah in State, Islamic system of government, Jehad, Khatam-e Nabuwat etc were included in the subjects of Islamic studies and Pakistan Studies.

Regards,

Awais

tariqsohail · 10-24-2009, 04:12 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 Dears

My major portion of discussions had been about Pakistan's economy and market situation. However, I can quote you a number of examples where our ICAP's CAs competed ICAEW's and secured the job even at UK. (Leave Malaysia or what, I am talking about UK). Pracs, a member of this very forum was Manager (may be now senior manager) in one of big 4 firms right in the heart of UK (London). Securing such a job at London means something. Some of my very close friends are at UK having lucrative jobs only on the basis of ICAP's CA. So there is no rule that ICAEW's member will be preferred without any reason.

Sohail.............

Dear Kamran,

With due respect to your opinion and research, we can not apply rule of execptions to this point..execptions are always there but we need to accept the truth and the truth is what I mentioned above. May be you can give us dozens of example like above but at the same time you will find 100's of examples from other institutes of U.K & USA. 

However, as Tariq Sohail has explained there are so many political and economical issues for which muslims and Pakistanis face tough times. This does not make us to corelate it with capabilities etc.

Sohail.............

I never write that pakistani accountants are technically less than others..if you read my above post, then you will find that I mentioned that despite of high technical knowledge we are not prefferd as compare to U.K & USA qualified accountants but its true that our country's current situation is further pushing us backward and we have to accept this truth. 

Why Pakistani universities are not in top 500 has similar attributes. You see no body will come to Pakistan for getting admission in these universities. How these can be included in top universities? But this does not mean that universities are not upto that level. Certainly no one prefers to come, study and settle at an economy like us. You may have to study how (on which criteria) such 500 universities have been ranked.

Sohail.............

Whatever the criteria is used..we need to accept this..if we are not accept this, it doesn't make any difference to them but rest of the world accepting this and we all know that in the global village nobody can live alone in his own world.
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Regards,

Sohail