Columbus's Mistake....America

sajjad_dar2000 · 12-14-2004, 05:59 AM

in the beginning there were very few countries in the world so there was a peace. in 15th century Columbus discovered the America, there are two theories about it. some people say it was not his fault, he actually want to discover us (pako_hind) but by mistake discovered America. according to this theory we are still undiscovered.

the other party saysâ¦noâ¦he did this action wilfully and discovered America. anyway if it was a mistake than it was very serious (he should be hanged till death for this mistake). Columbus died but we are receiving the punishment of his fault.

Sajjad Dar

Edited by - sajjad_dar2000 on Dec 14 2004 010152 AM

jbladeus · 12-14-2004, 06:59 AM

Sajjad

Let me act as the devil's advocate here.

Just because of the policies of the last few governments of a single nation in the western hemisphere, you are condemning the whole of North and South America, which i believe has been the most innovative and progressive continent in the last two hundred or so years.

The funny thing is that if you were offered a green card right now, you be off running of to that same "Columbus' mistake" of a nation without having any second thoughts!

Lets not be hypocrites and accept that Columbus' mistake has been one of the better things which has occured in human history.

I wonder what had happend if Columbus had not discovered america. We'd still be traveling by horse carriages, no aeroplanes, no going to the moon, no computers, internet, submarines, radio, tv, stock exchanges or anything. I guess we'd still would be living in medieval times!

Dont see only the darker aspect of things Sajjad. Everything has a positive aspect alongwith its negatives.

________________________
Arrrgh... it sure's gonna be mighty rough sailin' today ... mates!

sajjad_dar2000 · 12-14-2004, 11:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Sajjad

Let me act as the devil's advocate here.

Just because of the policies of the last few governments of a single nation in the western hemisphere, you are condemning the whole of North and South America, which i believe has been the most innovative and progressive continent in the last two hundred or so years.

The funny thing is that if you were offered a green card right now, you be off running of to that same "Columbus' mistake" of a nation without having any second thoughts!

Lets not be hypocrites and accept that Columbus' mistake has been one of the better things which has occured in human history.

I wonder what had happend if Columbus had not discovered america. We'd still be traveling by horse carriages, no aeroplanes, no going to the moon, no computers, internet, submarines, radio, tv, stock exchanges or anything. Sajjad

Let me act as the devil's advocate here.

Just because of the policies of the last few governments of a single nation in the western hemisphere, you are condemning the whole of North and South America, which i believe has been the most innovative and progressive continent in the last two hundred or so years.

The funny thing is that if you were offered a green card right now, you be off running of to that same "Columbus' mistake" of a nation without having any second thoughts!

Lets not be hypocrites and accept that Columbus' mistake has been one of the better things which has occured in human history.

I wonder what had happend if Columbus had not discovered america. We'd still be traveling by horse carriages, no aeroplanes, no going to the moon, no computers, internet, submarines, radio, tv, stock exchanges or anything. I guess we'd still would be living in medieval times!

Dont see only the darker aspect of things Sajjad. Everything has a positive aspect alongwith its negatives
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Hey guybrush,
You put me in surprise by replying this post in serious way I was not expected to have reply like thisâ¦â¦â¦.

Whatever I wrote in above paragraph it was only a joke. I actually took above paragraph from Urdu book named URDU KI AKHRE KETAB written by IBNAY INSHAH (a famous writer of Urdu) and I just translated it in to English.

Anyway now I have to reply your postâ¦everyone has different thought/views e.g. different people see half glass of water in different way, some say it is half empty and some would reply that it is half full. It is actually our way of thinking how we observe the things and what result we take.

Now come to America, I think you didnât read the history of America. There were only black people in the America when Columbus discovered it and then white people went there and took over the Land. As for as green card is concern, my answer â green card is my footâ. I had chance to go there but I refused.

There are certain things which you donât know whatever you mention above to support the America, most of them not discovered by American. Letâs talk about the moon, Apollo two was made by a German scientist.

If somebody appears in court as a defender, judge will not see what he achieved in his life he just have interest of the nature of his crime and would give his decision according to his crime. If you are representative of America in the court of justice with relation of his War Crime (Iraq, Afghanistan etc) there you canât defend America by saying âif America doesnât exist. We'd still be traveling by horse carriages, no aeroplanes, no going to the moon, no computers, internet, submarines, radio, tv, stock exchanges or anything. I guess we'd still would be living in medieval timesâ

If somebody presents the QARARDAD in United Nation against the Israel, America uses his power of veto there to reject the QARARDAD. According to the role of justice "to help the criminal itself a crime". What happened in Abu Grab Jail with the Iraqi POW I cant described the cruelty of american here if i do than i have to spend years to write.

Its the America who is the main reason of terrorism in the world.
Americans are enemy of Islam/Muslims and how we can call them friends.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I guess we'd still would be living in medieval times!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I think we were better in that age at least there was peace in the world.

Sajjad Dar

Note please dont think that i am criticising you i am just describing my views about America. I dont hate America but only its wrong policies.

Edited by - sajjad_dar2000 on Dec 14 2004 61959 PM

Pracs · 12-15-2004, 03:49 AM

Do not mean to be a part of this discussion, just a matter of fact thing

before the white people stepped onto the continents of the americas... it was not inhabited by ''black'' people but people of Aztec races... including the so ''red indians'' or the apaches. Ofocurse we all know what happened to all them.... The blacks were imported in only later for cheap labur...

Ah yeah.. Colombus was trying to find a new way to India, without having to pass by the cape of good hope (South Africa).. so as not to pay the Portugese (who held major ports en route to india)... remember Colombus was comissioned by Queen Isabella of spain (whose husband drove ut the last of the muslim kings from Cordoba and south Spain.)

"Allah does not change the state of people unless they change what is within themselves" Quran 1311

Edited by - Pracs on Dec 14 2004 105549 PM

jbladeus · 12-15-2004, 11:46 PM

There is no doubt that US acts as bodyguard of Israel and has been protecting more of its interests than even its own lately, but thats what i said about the mistakes of a few governments in my last message. But lets also accept that we have failed to acknowledge good deeds that US has done. (yeah funny aint it, but they have done a few)

Case in point, Bosnia. Some thing which we hate to accept and fail to acknowledge is the role of USA and Israel in saving Bosnian muslims from total annhilation and genocide at the hands of serbians in the Balkan conflict of early 90s. Call it their guilty conscience of failing to act early in the genocide of WW2 or something else, it was not any muslim country, but US and Israel which first came to the aid of Bosnians with economic and military support. So inspite of europe's vehement objections, a muslim state was created within mainland european by the US which also is something we have failed to acknowledge.

Two more points i'd like to make here. Firstly, if WE had as much economic and military power as US has right now, i shudder to think what crimes we ourselves would have committed in the name of our ghairat, hamiyat, jazba-e-imani and our cultural, moral and social values. We surely wouldve left US way behind in what they are doing now. Secondly, all US is doing right now is safeguarding its national interests by any means possible, be it right or wrong. If seen in their national perspective, they are doing absolutely the right thing. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Can we also claim to be doing the same for our country?

________________________
Arrrgh... it sure's gonna be mighty rough sailin' today ... mates!

Goodman · 12-16-2004, 05:49 AM

Two world wars were fought over Europe and a problem in backyard of europe needed sorting anyway.
The poles in international politics have been moved. These days, hardly any country can afford to go help stop the loss of innocent lives. All the help extended is in the name of "national security" and I believe we are all well aware of the difference between national security and national defense.

As most of you know the modern taxation stems back to Queen Isabella and her husband King Frdinand, Does anybody know about any material on the taxation structure introduced by them. I am sure it will be a good bed time reading.

CBPian · 12-16-2004, 06:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Case in point, Bosnia. Some thing which we hate to accept and fail to acknowledge is the role of USA and Israel in saving Bosnian muslims from total annhilation and genocide at the hands of serbians in the Balkan conflict of early 90s.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Guybrush.. can you refresh my knowledge on what Israel did in Bosnian conflict?

jbladeus · 12-17-2004, 09:52 AM

1) When first photos of those serbian concentration camps came out in public (remember those photos of the mal-nutritioned guy staring out from behind barbed wires), there arose a public outcry in the Israeli public and media to do something to stop this situation. I guess it reminded them of their own situation in WW2. The Israeli government is said to have pushed the US to get involved in the conflict. They also were among the first countries to have penned a resolution in the UN to put embargo on the former yugoslavian republic of serbia 'cos of its atrocities against bosnians.

2) Apparently Israel had sent several C-130s to airlift refugees out of the beseiged bosnian cities like srebrenica. They are also reported to have taken part in the strikes on serbian installations when the US struck on serbia in the mid-90s.

GM
lol... the last thing i'd read in bed would be something on taxation! Have just bought The Da Vinci code for this purpose.

________________________
Arrrgh... it sure's gonna be mighty rough sailin' today ... mates!

CBPian · 12-17-2004, 10:35 AM

Thank you, however I tried to verify your information independently without success.
If you'd mention any source, that may help me create a soft corner for them <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I, though, appreciate the role of US in balkan crisis.

Goodman · 12-17-2004, 05:13 PM

Hey Guybrush
Dont worry, I am sure there would be lots of other interesting stuff in it as well which might prove quite handy once a decision to go to bed has been taken.

smraza · 12-17-2004, 06:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Two more points i'd like to make here. Firstly, if WE had as much economic and military power as US has right now, i shudder to think what crimes we ourselves would have committed in the name of our ghairat, hamiyat, jazba-e-imani and our cultural, moral and social values. We surely wouldve left US way behind in what they are doing now. Secondly, all US is doing right now is safeguarding its national interests by any means possible, be it right or wrong. If seen in their national perspective, they are doing absolutely the right thing.

Can we also claim to be doing the same for our country?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I totally agree with you guybrush that if we had that much power we would have been doing the same things.
But the question is, in order to save my home should i start killing my neighbours with a view that they can harm me.
What is the purpose of UN then, UN has become "protitute" for USA, and US is following the rule of "Jis kee Lathi us kee Bhains"..

Being a weak nation we cannot do anything against US, take the example of Afghanistan, We became the party to USA just to saveguard our national interest otherwise we had been facing the same situation which was faced by Afghanis and is being faced by Iraqis.

We can just protest against the doings of USA.

Here I remember the Joke which was sent by my very close friend in US.
Once a dangerous dog tried to kill a Kid in US. A man saved that kid by killing that dog.
The police and media reporters were there in few minutes.
A reporter said to the man (hero), Congrats man I ll make a headline tomorrow that "A Brave American saved the life of a Kid from Dangerous Dog",
Man replied sorry sir i am not American,
Okay, the reporter said I ll publish "A Brave Jew saved the life of a Kid from Dangerous Dog",
Man again replied Sorry sir i am not Jew even, Reporter asked "Who are you then?"
He said, "I am Muslim",
Next day the headline was
"An Extremist muslim killed Faithful Dog of an American, The suspect may have links to Al-Qaeda".........................

SMR

jbladeus · 12-19-2004, 08:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>But the question is, in order to save my home should i start killing my neighbours with a view that they can harm me.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
What you say is true SMR, but let me put it this way. In the LIFE of a NATION, a human life is the most inexpensive commodity. It means that yes, human life has to be shed (ours and others) if one has to look after the NATION's interest.

US interests in this war were manifold like getting access to arab oil, getting a long-term operating base in the heart of the middle east, encircling iran (from both east and west by capturing afghanistan and iraq), getting rid of a potential enemy for Israel and many others. I guess their planners did a simple cost-profit analysis and the results were in favor of going to war. According to them, the benefits were far more than the loss of thousands of iraqi lives and even a couple of thousand of their own!

This has happend throughout history. Wars have been waged for things even more mundane than ousting some military dictator or for so-called democracy. From Alexander to Richard the Lionheart to Chenghez Khan to Mahmood Ghaznavi to Napolean to Hitler to George W, nearly all the wars in history were fought and countless lives were lost in the name of some false cause.

CBP
tauba karu... you'll immediately be branded a kafir, jew-lover, secular-minded (yes, this the latest 'IN' gaali over here <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>)and what-not if you even create the slightest bit of a soft corner for these hell-bound heathens! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

With regards to the sources, the documentary programme Panorama on BBC gave a detailed account on the events of the balkans some years back. I also read these two books on the balkan conflict written by some far-eastern writer and another one by a british writer (whose names i cant seem to recall at this time) which covered the role of the countries in discussion.

________________________
Arrrgh... it sure's gonna be mighty rough sailin' today ... mates!

Goodman · 12-19-2004, 08:25 PM

Guybrush
Value of human life is determined by the nation and not by the invaders. Yes countless wars were fought but nations with justice and equality have always and ultimately prevailed.

You earlier said that had we had the resources and skills we would have come out to be the worst. The question is did we ever came out worse? Yes it happened in East Pakistan before that it happened inside Haram Shariff. I think it did not happen in Espania (940 years rule), it did not happen in Turkey. The question is why it always happens when the control is un-democratic?

A nation can survive by crucifying others but the gesture of inequality within; marks the beginning of the end of the nation. Its at this point that the value of human life is down to a couple of tappins only (as you referred). You can relate this argument to all the wars you have mentioned in your post.

I am sure you would remember the Churchill,s famous words during the second world war. When he was asked whether or not GB will win the war, he replied by asking if the courts of law (not the court of Justice) were working and whether the courts were deciding impartially in accordance to the law. The reply was Yes to both questions, he said rest assured we will win. You are a person of wisdom, I leave you to judge for yourself whether it has any link to the value of human life in any nation.

Pracs · 12-20-2004, 02:56 AM

We seem to point fingers at the west, UK was the great colonial pariah and thought to be the ill of all evils and now we have the US,.... In today's world and in the past ofcourse,.. every nation and country had its own personal designs. The west may champion itself as the upholder of democracy and human rights along with these are convenient ''national interests''.

Could the US have bulldozed into Iraq and entered Afghanistan had these countries some kind of a just and representative government ? Could the US have dared to think of such a thing say if it were Malaysia.

Look around the world and a majority of dictatorships and monarchies exist in the muslim world ! some of these have have the most corrupt and unjust societies.

"Allah does not change the state of people unless they change what is within themselves" Quran 1311

jbladeus · 12-20-2004, 10:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Yes countless wars were fought but nations with justice and equality have always and ultimately prevailed. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Justice and equality?!! what do these words actually mean in today's world GM? First Kalma for a media/political spinster? As far as i am concerned, these idealistic terms are only used by the 'zaalim' to continue with their expolitation of the 'mazloom'.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Could the US have bulldozed into Iraq and entered Afghanistan had these countries some kind of a just and representative government?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Agreed with you guys, though must add that democracy can also be exploited and used as a tool.

________________________
Arrrgh... it sure's gonna be mighty rough sailin' today ... mates!