04-03-2007, 05:00 PM
Dear Amir,
I was anticipating a similar reply from your side. The words which you have written in your post do not bother me at all. Some people do not want to understand the issues and always show a tendency of rigid thoughts. I never talked a word against the real noble people who dont earn their livelihoods by using the name of Islam. My message was about the persons who their-selves call them as AALIM or induce the others to understand them as AALIM and do various things in this capacity. Still, the capabilities of any person which make him AALIM by whatever person cannot and will not ensure that upto what extent such AALIM is PRACTICAL. The knowledge is nothing if we dont practise it in true sense.
I hereunder quote my words of previous post
"I cannot understand until now that how one person describes his ownself as AALIM OR ULEMAA. It is out of my apprhension. If to any such Aalim, i dont accept as aalim, then what prevents me from thinking so. Is there any law that any prticular man is AALIM. Is there any general rule for calling anybody AALIM. For example, If one dont accept the managment of JAMIA HAFSA as AALIMS, then what will happen."
Yes, what the Jamia people have done, I dont find them as AALIM. This is my understanding and belief and there is no bar on having any belief as per Islam.
For you Mr. Amir, i clarify that,
I dont know who was that woman (named by you as Shamim) and whatever she was doing. And yes, I dont want to know about her. Who am I to poke my nose in others' affairs. I know one thing, for being compliant of Hadood Laws (as per Shariah) one needs 4 eye witnesses (male witnesses) for proving such an act or if the involved person accepts his/her sin, then it stands proved. This is what Islam has asked us to do. Whatever goes beyond its limits is in my sole opinion the "BIDAT" AND IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES A social crime. The Prophet PBUH has asked us to adopt the in-between way outs and to keep our minds neutral up to possible extent.
Whatever was commonly known in society about that female and whoever knows about her in whatever details, IF ONE KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT ISLAM will conclude, cannot make any one to act against such female. Specially when she has done nothing apparently objectionable on public places or roads.
Who certifies that all the persons that were allegating her, were very much noble. Is it a taboo, if one speaks against their character, for instance. I dont have any doubts over them but is there any certification? We cannot act against any one with such allegations except if its is proved as per Shariah. This is what required by Islam.
Jamia Hafsa by no way was supposed to take laws in their hands irrespective whatever has happened. I have one example for you Mr. Amir,
If some one abuses the other on road due to whatever reason and is killed by the other person for this ill-doing. Abusing some one is quite against Islam and social laws. Would this fact relieve the murderer from the punishment. Reply is "NO" because by no means he was supposed to take the law in hands. Then how Jamia students can do these acts theirselves. If police was not taking action against alegations, it was correct as per current law. Yes, if there was some lewdness or whatever on public places and police was not taking action then the complaintees should have gone to the court that is the way out in a good society and as per laws of Pakistan.
You seem to have knowledge about Islam and I appreciate it. But rigidity eliminates every good thought from the minds of the others. Whenever you would be using rigid words for others, people will start ignoring you or opt to leave the discussion, to get rid of your language which you use for others.
I know PRACS is a muslim thats why he was taking part in some discussion pertaining to Islam and Shariah. You cannot fit a cap on the thoughts and ideas of others. You critically asked about his religion. Are you the leaseholder of this religion. It is possible that you might be a better muslim than others and it is also possible that others might be better than you. No body asked you about your religion when you were discussing your issue pertaining to shariah dressings becoz it is understood that you are a muslim. My mail was an open discussion originally addressed to PRACS. You can, in response positively criticise this post but you have no right to use bitter words for me like
"Now your post Mr KamranACA i din't know that whether their is subject in ICAP's Criculm which teach students ethics....you are totally unethical and without knowing facts you started throwing all mud to ULEMAS(Moulvees)and Jamia's Students.....i say onething here that if any one trys to use abbusive words for ALLAH(S.W.T) so he may not do this because of other "Emanfull People of society" so by knowing this fact he start abusing for Moulvees ...........Infact lot of people who are i don't know at what darja(SCALE) of eman start abusing to SAHABA's(R.A.A), IMMAM'S, OWLIA'S and ULEMA'S .......so don't bother for others and don't bother for pakistan bother about your eman and bother about the words you posted here those words will be using as witness in Akhirrah and will susequently become an obstacle for you so please use words which are authentic and in good faith for your QABAR"
You took the names of SAHAABAS (Raziallah Talah) and IMAMS AND AULIYAAS (God bless them all). My previous mail did not relate to any of them and you have merely watered the plant grown by yor hands to prove me wrong. Do you co-relate these MAULVIES with such pure men of ALLAH. (Naoozbillah). There is no comparison and I dont appreciate using their names by you (in the above style) in this matter.
You know this stuff of MAULVIES and supposed MULVIES is a cause of my reaction about them. They think they are solely correct and all other world is incorrect. I again point out that I am not talking about real noble persons who dont make their earnings by using the name of Islam.
Whatever you have written in support of Jamia Hafsa's acts may even lead to conclude that the MAULVI SARWAR, who killed a female minister in recent days, did a very good job by taking law in his hand against a bad facet of social set-up (as per his opinion). This is ridiculous.
Mr. Amir, sometimes your words collide with each other which should also be revisited by you. You in the above post said
"yes you are right that 4 witness at the time of("Dukhool[enterance]") is necessery.............................so post here with authentic clauses don't make others fools...........and take care about yourself don't bother about such lewds"
You agree that my pointing out of what witness is required for proving ZANA is correct and even then you say that I should use authentic clauses and should not make fool of others. Pitty on you dear. What can I say. You agree that I am correct and then again You say I am fooling you. What the thing you are?
If you wrote it about that female, you must know that in my previous post I never supported her activities, if any. Ispecially mentione dit. I only criticised the Jamia students for taking laws in their hands. Yes, whatever such vague evidences may be available (as mentioned by you), one cannot on his/her own come on roads to do justice. Yes it was their prerogative to go to a court or to agitate agaisnt such a situation publicly.
You always mention indirectly about your knowledge about Islam, that why I feel You must be knowing a Hadees-e-Mubarika where a person came to the Prophet PBUH and admitted his sin. The prophet (PBUH) changed the direction of his (PBUH) face from him. He again came in front of the face of prophet (PBUH) and again admitted the sin. Prophet (PBUH) again changed the direction of face. He again came and repeated the same. Third time, Prophet (PBUH) listened him and then suggested punishment for him.
Prophet (PBUH) did it because he (PBUH) never wanted to listen the sin from him as one as a person has no right to intefere some one else's personal hidden life. God is SATTAAR and likes this quality. (It is also a Hadees). But when that person accepted his sin for the third time, he was punished, as he created un-ignorable witnessing.
This again confirms that Jamia Hafsa had no right to do what they have done.
I dont ask you and in fact have no right to ask you to dont respond to my posts, as it is a general forum. Still, I reuest you to be positive and dont use straight a way bitter language for others.
Yes, I am against the so-called Maulvies and I would always bring so many islamic proofs against them. (For a moment how this word MAULVI has evolved?) At the same time I have a greatest respect for the real noble men of GOD who dont call theirselves AALIM and who dont make livelihoods by using Islaam's name.
Best regards,
Kamran.
I was anticipating a similar reply from your side. The words which you have written in your post do not bother me at all. Some people do not want to understand the issues and always show a tendency of rigid thoughts. I never talked a word against the real noble people who dont earn their livelihoods by using the name of Islam. My message was about the persons who their-selves call them as AALIM or induce the others to understand them as AALIM and do various things in this capacity. Still, the capabilities of any person which make him AALIM by whatever person cannot and will not ensure that upto what extent such AALIM is PRACTICAL. The knowledge is nothing if we dont practise it in true sense.
I hereunder quote my words of previous post
"I cannot understand until now that how one person describes his ownself as AALIM OR ULEMAA. It is out of my apprhension. If to any such Aalim, i dont accept as aalim, then what prevents me from thinking so. Is there any law that any prticular man is AALIM. Is there any general rule for calling anybody AALIM. For example, If one dont accept the managment of JAMIA HAFSA as AALIMS, then what will happen."
Yes, what the Jamia people have done, I dont find them as AALIM. This is my understanding and belief and there is no bar on having any belief as per Islam.
For you Mr. Amir, i clarify that,
I dont know who was that woman (named by you as Shamim) and whatever she was doing. And yes, I dont want to know about her. Who am I to poke my nose in others' affairs. I know one thing, for being compliant of Hadood Laws (as per Shariah) one needs 4 eye witnesses (male witnesses) for proving such an act or if the involved person accepts his/her sin, then it stands proved. This is what Islam has asked us to do. Whatever goes beyond its limits is in my sole opinion the "BIDAT" AND IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES A social crime. The Prophet PBUH has asked us to adopt the in-between way outs and to keep our minds neutral up to possible extent.
Whatever was commonly known in society about that female and whoever knows about her in whatever details, IF ONE KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT ISLAM will conclude, cannot make any one to act against such female. Specially when she has done nothing apparently objectionable on public places or roads.
Who certifies that all the persons that were allegating her, were very much noble. Is it a taboo, if one speaks against their character, for instance. I dont have any doubts over them but is there any certification? We cannot act against any one with such allegations except if its is proved as per Shariah. This is what required by Islam.
Jamia Hafsa by no way was supposed to take laws in their hands irrespective whatever has happened. I have one example for you Mr. Amir,
If some one abuses the other on road due to whatever reason and is killed by the other person for this ill-doing. Abusing some one is quite against Islam and social laws. Would this fact relieve the murderer from the punishment. Reply is "NO" because by no means he was supposed to take the law in hands. Then how Jamia students can do these acts theirselves. If police was not taking action against alegations, it was correct as per current law. Yes, if there was some lewdness or whatever on public places and police was not taking action then the complaintees should have gone to the court that is the way out in a good society and as per laws of Pakistan.
You seem to have knowledge about Islam and I appreciate it. But rigidity eliminates every good thought from the minds of the others. Whenever you would be using rigid words for others, people will start ignoring you or opt to leave the discussion, to get rid of your language which you use for others.
I know PRACS is a muslim thats why he was taking part in some discussion pertaining to Islam and Shariah. You cannot fit a cap on the thoughts and ideas of others. You critically asked about his religion. Are you the leaseholder of this religion. It is possible that you might be a better muslim than others and it is also possible that others might be better than you. No body asked you about your religion when you were discussing your issue pertaining to shariah dressings becoz it is understood that you are a muslim. My mail was an open discussion originally addressed to PRACS. You can, in response positively criticise this post but you have no right to use bitter words for me like
"Now your post Mr KamranACA i din't know that whether their is subject in ICAP's Criculm which teach students ethics....you are totally unethical and without knowing facts you started throwing all mud to ULEMAS(Moulvees)and Jamia's Students.....i say onething here that if any one trys to use abbusive words for ALLAH(S.W.T) so he may not do this because of other "Emanfull People of society" so by knowing this fact he start abusing for Moulvees ...........Infact lot of people who are i don't know at what darja(SCALE) of eman start abusing to SAHABA's(R.A.A), IMMAM'S, OWLIA'S and ULEMA'S .......so don't bother for others and don't bother for pakistan bother about your eman and bother about the words you posted here those words will be using as witness in Akhirrah and will susequently become an obstacle for you so please use words which are authentic and in good faith for your QABAR"
You took the names of SAHAABAS (Raziallah Talah) and IMAMS AND AULIYAAS (God bless them all). My previous mail did not relate to any of them and you have merely watered the plant grown by yor hands to prove me wrong. Do you co-relate these MAULVIES with such pure men of ALLAH. (Naoozbillah). There is no comparison and I dont appreciate using their names by you (in the above style) in this matter.
You know this stuff of MAULVIES and supposed MULVIES is a cause of my reaction about them. They think they are solely correct and all other world is incorrect. I again point out that I am not talking about real noble persons who dont make their earnings by using the name of Islam.
Whatever you have written in support of Jamia Hafsa's acts may even lead to conclude that the MAULVI SARWAR, who killed a female minister in recent days, did a very good job by taking law in his hand against a bad facet of social set-up (as per his opinion). This is ridiculous.
Mr. Amir, sometimes your words collide with each other which should also be revisited by you. You in the above post said
"yes you are right that 4 witness at the time of("Dukhool[enterance]") is necessery.............................so post here with authentic clauses don't make others fools...........and take care about yourself don't bother about such lewds"
You agree that my pointing out of what witness is required for proving ZANA is correct and even then you say that I should use authentic clauses and should not make fool of others. Pitty on you dear. What can I say. You agree that I am correct and then again You say I am fooling you. What the thing you are?
If you wrote it about that female, you must know that in my previous post I never supported her activities, if any. Ispecially mentione dit. I only criticised the Jamia students for taking laws in their hands. Yes, whatever such vague evidences may be available (as mentioned by you), one cannot on his/her own come on roads to do justice. Yes it was their prerogative to go to a court or to agitate agaisnt such a situation publicly.
You always mention indirectly about your knowledge about Islam, that why I feel You must be knowing a Hadees-e-Mubarika where a person came to the Prophet PBUH and admitted his sin. The prophet (PBUH) changed the direction of his (PBUH) face from him. He again came in front of the face of prophet (PBUH) and again admitted the sin. Prophet (PBUH) again changed the direction of face. He again came and repeated the same. Third time, Prophet (PBUH) listened him and then suggested punishment for him.
Prophet (PBUH) did it because he (PBUH) never wanted to listen the sin from him as one as a person has no right to intefere some one else's personal hidden life. God is SATTAAR and likes this quality. (It is also a Hadees). But when that person accepted his sin for the third time, he was punished, as he created un-ignorable witnessing.
This again confirms that Jamia Hafsa had no right to do what they have done.
I dont ask you and in fact have no right to ask you to dont respond to my posts, as it is a general forum. Still, I reuest you to be positive and dont use straight a way bitter language for others.
Yes, I am against the so-called Maulvies and I would always bring so many islamic proofs against them. (For a moment how this word MAULVI has evolved?) At the same time I have a greatest respect for the real noble men of GOD who dont call theirselves AALIM and who dont make livelihoods by using Islaam's name.
Best regards,
Kamran.
