07-17-2007, 05:34 PM
Dear Coollioness,
(It wud be better if u tell ur name than this nick)
In ur above post I think we are almost agreed on first four points except for that I feel there is an acute defficiency of law implementation in Pakistan while u feel that there is no law at all in Pakistan. I think we should give a room to cover any mistake that might have been made in our assessment.
You asked that what should we do if government is not implementing laws. In my view, if in any specific case we need the help of law and enforecers are not helping us then we should move a writ or file a petition through court and it is now very common in Pakistan. Even no FIR is normally recorded by police unless court orders the police. You may or may not agree but I have witnessed it so many times since my brother is a lawyer and I am used to see so many such cases where he/his associates get court orders for their clients to get their rights even through police. Although it may cause some difficulty but is really a good way to get the rights. You would appreciate to hear that last day a court of law in Pakistan has ordered an AC MANUFACTURING COMPANY, on the petition of a customer of such company, to pay him a fine of 52,000 Rupees along with an afresh replacement of his Split AC Unit becoz the customer applied to the court for such orders and proved the fault of the AC MANUFACTURING COMPANY in the court. Hearing of this decision on radio of my car while I was driving back to home gave me immense satisfaction and pleasure and a sigh of relief as well. After all one can get justice in Pakistan.
You said-
"It never says that just start fighting with a Christian or Hindu Or Jew in his own country that why he/she is wondering around in half clothes or eating infront of you in Ramadan. You dont have any right to do this. Yes you can attract them with your pracitses. with your actions. They should feel something special about you that this person is different."
You further said-
"So the point is that stop the evil by hand is applied where it is war situation. You are confronted with a situation where you do not have any other option except to use your hands or weapons. You must have heard one more Hadees or Ayat ( i m sorry i am confused), the meaning goes like, If you see that the company where you are sitting are talking about something evil or bad, just leave that company, and walk away." yeh thouri ke maar pitaiee start kar do."
So,
When I pointed out that evil is evil even in USA, it never meant that one living at USA should attck on any one just to stop the evil. I actually wanted to give u a comparison that if in this advanced world one should and cannot do it in USA, he/she must not do or think to do it even in Pakistan or any other home country by his/her own hands. There are a number of legal ways to fullfil this hadees. Again I stress that there might be a defficiency of law implementation still, one can get the justice. By adopting a legal way out, if some one succeeds in stoping some evil, he fully comply's the requirement of the Hadees. Using the available sources means for stoping the evil by hand. And even if one fails to stop the evil by adopting all possible measures, his intent has to be judged by God. This is what we believe. All acts are based upon the intents. However, picking up weapons against the government and its agencies should by no means be appreciated and doing anything like that would make any one a terrorist. Have you any doubt? If you have then we need not to discuss this issue any more since I said I cannot change any one's mindset.
You talked about the mosques in Islamabad. In an interview at Capital Talk of GEO, Ejaz-ul-Haq, Minister, said that new mosques have been constructed on various places to replace the Shaheed Mosques. Now, I dont personally know that whether or not he was true but I noticed that no one in that talk show challenged his statement. If we call him untrue then how can we call Ghazies true while we are sitting at far off distances and dont know what has been so far done on ground.
Whether or not Ghazi talked to government peacefully is a very open matter. We were used to hear Ghazi on media every day during this operation and we know from which point he was talking and what a rigid behaviour he was showing. Still, I dont much appreciate government's killings in this operation. I only condemn the individuals who did not surrender against government and kept on firing on its army. I for the moment leave all other things. Lives could have been saved if the issue was supposed to be resolved by the Ghazies. Since we have given all of our remarks and viewpoint on this issue, it would be purpose-less to talk on it any further. Becoz in my view it will not fetch any agreement between two mindsets. One mindset requires government to have surrendered and other mindset thinks that terrorists should have surrendred. Decision should be left on judgement day. After all every one including me have to face the judgment day. May God bless us all.
Now coming to ur point about Mullahism. It's just a matter of messing up the things and complicating the very straightforward concept. Mullah's definition, you might get from some dictionery or other reference book but as far as myself is concerned I feel a person as Mullah if he is (these are only few points)
- rigid,
- closed minded,
- very much restricted,
- lacks knolwedge and wisdom and views the religion in extremely narrow vision,
- feels every one to be murderable if he/she dont comply his ideas,
- uses public moneies and resources for his/their own purposes, (and sells holy verses for few coins, as pointed out in Holy Quran)
- even in peaceful environment carries/carry huge ammunition and body gaurds,
- get so much CHANDDAs to run his/their objectives and never publishes their/his financials for those who entrusted their moneies in fiduciary capacity,
- is not agreebale to any point of conclusion without any basis and always wishes to talk with guns and fires or;
- at least threat the others with their so-called force (as being done in Swat and D I KHAN),
- were basically against the creation of Pakistan and afterwards always tried to penetrate into its affairs
- always wish to create their own systems and courts and procedures independent of the government,
- never come up with wise strategies and always talk about impracticable methodologies.
There might be a number of persons who dont differentiate Mullahs from MOMENEEN and NOBLE UMELAs. This is every one's right to have faith on or believe whatever he deems most appropriate. I dont have to change any one's belief and am happy to preserve my own belief which I have, keeping in my view by all means that I am answerable to ALLAH for all of my deeds and I take responsibility for my above words.
As far as Mr. Jinnah's statement is concerned, I read it in some article and also heard it from Mr. Justice Retired Javed Iqbal (Son of Sir Allama Muhammad Iqbal). I would try to locate the exact date and venue of this speech for you but do not ensure to provide the same as it requires to visit library which now a days is not practicable for me. You can have contact with me on this forum or on
[email protected]
and I, if possible, will try to do the needful. However, you can also search it by locating Mr. Jinnah's main speeches after the creation of Pakistan.
It's very good, if due to your attitude, some of non-muslims have corrected their way out of life. I really appreciate it.
Best regards,
Kamran.
(It wud be better if u tell ur name than this nick)
In ur above post I think we are almost agreed on first four points except for that I feel there is an acute defficiency of law implementation in Pakistan while u feel that there is no law at all in Pakistan. I think we should give a room to cover any mistake that might have been made in our assessment.
You asked that what should we do if government is not implementing laws. In my view, if in any specific case we need the help of law and enforecers are not helping us then we should move a writ or file a petition through court and it is now very common in Pakistan. Even no FIR is normally recorded by police unless court orders the police. You may or may not agree but I have witnessed it so many times since my brother is a lawyer and I am used to see so many such cases where he/his associates get court orders for their clients to get their rights even through police. Although it may cause some difficulty but is really a good way to get the rights. You would appreciate to hear that last day a court of law in Pakistan has ordered an AC MANUFACTURING COMPANY, on the petition of a customer of such company, to pay him a fine of 52,000 Rupees along with an afresh replacement of his Split AC Unit becoz the customer applied to the court for such orders and proved the fault of the AC MANUFACTURING COMPANY in the court. Hearing of this decision on radio of my car while I was driving back to home gave me immense satisfaction and pleasure and a sigh of relief as well. After all one can get justice in Pakistan.
You said-
"It never says that just start fighting with a Christian or Hindu Or Jew in his own country that why he/she is wondering around in half clothes or eating infront of you in Ramadan. You dont have any right to do this. Yes you can attract them with your pracitses. with your actions. They should feel something special about you that this person is different."
You further said-
"So the point is that stop the evil by hand is applied where it is war situation. You are confronted with a situation where you do not have any other option except to use your hands or weapons. You must have heard one more Hadees or Ayat ( i m sorry i am confused), the meaning goes like, If you see that the company where you are sitting are talking about something evil or bad, just leave that company, and walk away." yeh thouri ke maar pitaiee start kar do."
So,
When I pointed out that evil is evil even in USA, it never meant that one living at USA should attck on any one just to stop the evil. I actually wanted to give u a comparison that if in this advanced world one should and cannot do it in USA, he/she must not do or think to do it even in Pakistan or any other home country by his/her own hands. There are a number of legal ways to fullfil this hadees. Again I stress that there might be a defficiency of law implementation still, one can get the justice. By adopting a legal way out, if some one succeeds in stoping some evil, he fully comply's the requirement of the Hadees. Using the available sources means for stoping the evil by hand. And even if one fails to stop the evil by adopting all possible measures, his intent has to be judged by God. This is what we believe. All acts are based upon the intents. However, picking up weapons against the government and its agencies should by no means be appreciated and doing anything like that would make any one a terrorist. Have you any doubt? If you have then we need not to discuss this issue any more since I said I cannot change any one's mindset.
You talked about the mosques in Islamabad. In an interview at Capital Talk of GEO, Ejaz-ul-Haq, Minister, said that new mosques have been constructed on various places to replace the Shaheed Mosques. Now, I dont personally know that whether or not he was true but I noticed that no one in that talk show challenged his statement. If we call him untrue then how can we call Ghazies true while we are sitting at far off distances and dont know what has been so far done on ground.
Whether or not Ghazi talked to government peacefully is a very open matter. We were used to hear Ghazi on media every day during this operation and we know from which point he was talking and what a rigid behaviour he was showing. Still, I dont much appreciate government's killings in this operation. I only condemn the individuals who did not surrender against government and kept on firing on its army. I for the moment leave all other things. Lives could have been saved if the issue was supposed to be resolved by the Ghazies. Since we have given all of our remarks and viewpoint on this issue, it would be purpose-less to talk on it any further. Becoz in my view it will not fetch any agreement between two mindsets. One mindset requires government to have surrendered and other mindset thinks that terrorists should have surrendred. Decision should be left on judgement day. After all every one including me have to face the judgment day. May God bless us all.
Now coming to ur point about Mullahism. It's just a matter of messing up the things and complicating the very straightforward concept. Mullah's definition, you might get from some dictionery or other reference book but as far as myself is concerned I feel a person as Mullah if he is (these are only few points)
- rigid,
- closed minded,
- very much restricted,
- lacks knolwedge and wisdom and views the religion in extremely narrow vision,
- feels every one to be murderable if he/she dont comply his ideas,
- uses public moneies and resources for his/their own purposes, (and sells holy verses for few coins, as pointed out in Holy Quran)
- even in peaceful environment carries/carry huge ammunition and body gaurds,
- get so much CHANDDAs to run his/their objectives and never publishes their/his financials for those who entrusted their moneies in fiduciary capacity,
- is not agreebale to any point of conclusion without any basis and always wishes to talk with guns and fires or;
- at least threat the others with their so-called force (as being done in Swat and D I KHAN),
- were basically against the creation of Pakistan and afterwards always tried to penetrate into its affairs
- always wish to create their own systems and courts and procedures independent of the government,
- never come up with wise strategies and always talk about impracticable methodologies.
There might be a number of persons who dont differentiate Mullahs from MOMENEEN and NOBLE UMELAs. This is every one's right to have faith on or believe whatever he deems most appropriate. I dont have to change any one's belief and am happy to preserve my own belief which I have, keeping in my view by all means that I am answerable to ALLAH for all of my deeds and I take responsibility for my above words.
As far as Mr. Jinnah's statement is concerned, I read it in some article and also heard it from Mr. Justice Retired Javed Iqbal (Son of Sir Allama Muhammad Iqbal). I would try to locate the exact date and venue of this speech for you but do not ensure to provide the same as it requires to visit library which now a days is not practicable for me. You can have contact with me on this forum or on
[email protected]
and I, if possible, will try to do the needful. However, you can also search it by locating Mr. Jinnah's main speeches after the creation of Pakistan.
It's very good, if due to your attitude, some of non-muslims have corrected their way out of life. I really appreciate it.
Best regards,
Kamran.
