10-08-2007, 09:39 PM
Dear Shoaib,
There had been a verse in the Holy Quran which means "Do not Go for Prayer, if you are drunk/intoxicated". Now some people (who have to drive the meanings of their own choice by using one part and by ignoring the other) have been since ages using the first part of this verse to avoid the prayers.
You have exactly done the same while drafting your above post. At so many places you used one part of my argument to draw conclusion while leaving the other facet behind just to fulfill your own purposes. Thatâs what you mentioned at the outset that now you are eliminating the difference between debate-for-the-sake-of-debate and healthy discussion. However, I would like to appreciate that you in some area followed my logic.
Like you have made me a Miaan Mithoo before starting the battle of words (which I dont want to become), I also wish to mention for record purpose that you are among those members of this forum for whom I have developed liking and appreciation. Reasons could be enormous. It's not purposed to give you a room to get to a Miaan Mithoo state of mind by taking the edge of these remarks. Of course we are in similar profession and we should appreciate those who appear to be capable of it.
While discussing the IDEAL MACHINE remarks included in my post you tried what I mentioned at the onset of this post. You said that I am rejecting the idea of idealism and at the same time I am apreciating to pursue it. You ignored delibrately the following part of those remarks
"So, idealism is likely to be pursued but it does not have to be achieved entirely. "
It is my view that we must strive for idealism, becoz it has to be beneficial for the mankind keeping in mind the progressive approach. But we should not curse our lives, environment, systems, employers, seniors, teachers and general set up just becoz we have not at a given point of time reached the idealism. I mentioned that Idealism cannot be ENTIRELY achieved and it has never been achieved any where in the world. This is some thing to satisfy the inner questions of the student minds which have so many emerging dis-agreements and confusions. This does not mean to eliminate the chances of positive creativity. This is just to understand, otherwise, I know arguments will have to go for the life time long.
As far as your comments on the part of my post pertaining to those who went abroad for qualification are concerned, again my analysis leaves me with no choice except to conclude your style in line with the initial paragraph of this post. I said DOOR KAY DHOLE SUHAANEY. I no where mentioned that no one should go abroad. Have I? Further you pointed out one previous post where I showed intention to move to middle east. Dear, going for establishing a business/practice and going for making a qualification career are entirely two different things. I wonder how roughly you mingle up the things. If you have to do so, please do it neatly. Moreover, even if one has to move abroad for establishing practice/business, he must not think that he will find all the honey without a single bee. If you remember my earlier post which you mentioned about my intentions to go abraod, you must not forget that in that post I concluded that it was not feasible for me to go there. I also perhaps mentioned that I may think about it on some later stage. You again while mentioning that post recalled about "NOT GOING TO PRAYER" and forgot "IF YOU ARE DRUNK/INTOXICATED". It's amazing. Is it not? Since I was basically discussing those who leave for getting foreign qualification (and not for jobs) therefore, it has relevance to the main issue and does not distract the attention. You cannot declare it as such.
Coming to your point of Sawal Chana Jawab Ganddam. Rest assure it's not Shoaib who posted the Jawab. I concentrated on the area where a student should focus his thoughts and ambitions. It's study and qualification which counts and which has to be considered. HR policies are of course available in every big firm, which are not compuslorily to be verified by each student. (In my office students have full access to all such policies). A student is basically not a final decision maker. He is allocated a specific work that is reviewed at number of stages before conclusion. Accordingly students are students and are not the specific stake-holders (employees or officers) of a firm. Thats why they are affected by the generality of HR policies but not specifically.
They are not the employees. They dont have to get rules for sick, pay and other leaves, they cant claim separate cabins within the offices, separate phone lines, re-imbursement of exepnses that are specific to employees, they dont ask for vehicles or fix fuel entitlements, they cant ask for retirement benefits, they cant ask for participation in management and partners meetings unless considered necessary by stakeholders, they cant ask monetary benefits for late sittings on overtime workings (though in so many firms they are provided credit leaves) and so on.
In fact nothing has really to be confirmed from them unless they have the required knowledge and skills. The utmost so-called HR issues of students are allocations, late sittings, credit leaves etc which are up to the mark in some of the good firms I personally know. Yes, they are in the stage of getting/learning something and they must not consider themselves employees or to the worst as labourers. It would be harmful for theirownselves. It is not strange if your mind does not accept it. So many minds dont accept so many things on earlier stages.
Therefore, I am still of the view that the utmost matter of importance for a student is what development has been made for his studies and training. I think a lot has been improved. If you dont agree, I cannot make you to agree. Your points of work on Human Resource Management and advocacy of friendly HR policies to motivate employees to derive their max output and ur comments about "why participative style of decision making and delegating work is always preferred? Why are we taught Organizational Behaviour and Business Management if all these theories are nothing but a piece of ....? " etc have no relevance at this stage as you are not employee, rather u r a student. You are not taught these all things to milk all the cows during your articles. Bhayya duniya khattam nahi ho jaati articles kay baad. This is to learn for life time not for these 3.50 years. You understand.
You said that I did not pay attention to "if there are practices continuing for long time that doesn't make them right"
Since principally I dont disagree to this statement thats why it did not require to be answered. But at the same time I know this line did not focus on what we were discussing. The issue which you are focussing is entirely not the issue of you people. HR policies, behaviour sceinces and other such things. I just wonder what you people have aimed at.
You mentioned
Quote
"A similar incident I'll also quote just to ellobrate the difference and for the other members to evaluate. A friend of mine working in an average firm come to me and told about his plan to move to a better firm. However, we were not sure that will he be recruited in that better firm and will he be able to get himself adjust there. I suggested him to take leaves from his firm and if he adjusts in the new place he may take the NOC from his existing firm."
UNQUOTE
You can get the answer to ur query in a counter question. Just tell me that ur firm after registering ur contract feel that u r not up to the mark as a student and does not disclose it to u and keep on interviewing new students to replace u. After finding new one more intelligent and hard working guy, if they kick you out by terminating ur contract or simply give you NOC or so-called OC, would it be a justified thing at the part of your firm??
I wonder how people create self made differences of good morals and character. Criticising the others is easier but facing similar action is severe. It would be almost a similar action but will not be digested by ur mind. Will it?
You have declared that
"Why people like Kamran sb forgets that primarily a student has to be loyal to himself then to his working place?"
If this is the case then just tell me why you object on the firms, if they give preference to their own interests in your opinion.????
I and Pracs at so many places agree with each other's statements. This is becoz at later stages people know more than the earlier stages and can speak knowing the roots of the issue.
I agree to Pracs that-
"the real change and a truly nurturing corporate enivron can be fostered into these firms, especially the Big 10 only when we have direct investments coming in and the global firms are allowed to get stakes in there associates in Pakistan. This has now happened across the border in India and things have changed by leaps and bounds there. Its going to be sooner rather than later. May not be in your life time as a CA student, but yes it will happen. A silver lining in all this is that life at your CA firm just gives you a glimpse what its going to be like in the real world, and no matter how pampered an upbringing one has had it gives you just the right skills to work your way through your first job."
This is exactly what I feel. CA firm is not a life for a student, rather it is the initiation of life. I mean professional life. Globalization and corporate culture etc are again specific to those who continue with firms as stake-holders and not merely are the students. Students have to complete a fix tenure and leave the firm, if they dont opt to be its stakeholder. Pracs is at managerial level and these things suits him a lot. But dear Shoaib, these are not your issues at this earlier stage. You only have to work and complete the tenure. You dont have to participate in management affairs unless you are invited for it. What goes wrong if I agree to Pracs statements. It does not affect my stance at all.
There is of course no contradiction in my management style which I read and my relationships with my staff. The issue is only of clarity of concepts. Students who were never able to discuss their issues feel ease at exploring their ideas in front of me. I just dont like to be docile on the matters which are raised without a reason. But of course students are students and are not among the frontline decision makers or beneficiaries of the firms. Thats why their area of HR issues is very nominal and countable on fingers. This does not call for extra ordinary HR policies. Yes, general policies, I again say, exist in every good setup.
So Shoaib, you better try some thing else rather than to find out my contradictions, as you will rarely succeed doing so. Even then I place on record that I am also a human being and there could be some contradictions un-noticed. But merely by repeating the habit of blowing "dont go to prayer" and totally ignoring "if you are drunk/intoxicated" will not help you at all.
Be logical and create acceptibility. This is just an advice. Nothing promising reaction is expected.
Regards,
Kamran.
There had been a verse in the Holy Quran which means "Do not Go for Prayer, if you are drunk/intoxicated". Now some people (who have to drive the meanings of their own choice by using one part and by ignoring the other) have been since ages using the first part of this verse to avoid the prayers.
You have exactly done the same while drafting your above post. At so many places you used one part of my argument to draw conclusion while leaving the other facet behind just to fulfill your own purposes. Thatâs what you mentioned at the outset that now you are eliminating the difference between debate-for-the-sake-of-debate and healthy discussion. However, I would like to appreciate that you in some area followed my logic.
Like you have made me a Miaan Mithoo before starting the battle of words (which I dont want to become), I also wish to mention for record purpose that you are among those members of this forum for whom I have developed liking and appreciation. Reasons could be enormous. It's not purposed to give you a room to get to a Miaan Mithoo state of mind by taking the edge of these remarks. Of course we are in similar profession and we should appreciate those who appear to be capable of it.
While discussing the IDEAL MACHINE remarks included in my post you tried what I mentioned at the onset of this post. You said that I am rejecting the idea of idealism and at the same time I am apreciating to pursue it. You ignored delibrately the following part of those remarks
"So, idealism is likely to be pursued but it does not have to be achieved entirely. "
It is my view that we must strive for idealism, becoz it has to be beneficial for the mankind keeping in mind the progressive approach. But we should not curse our lives, environment, systems, employers, seniors, teachers and general set up just becoz we have not at a given point of time reached the idealism. I mentioned that Idealism cannot be ENTIRELY achieved and it has never been achieved any where in the world. This is some thing to satisfy the inner questions of the student minds which have so many emerging dis-agreements and confusions. This does not mean to eliminate the chances of positive creativity. This is just to understand, otherwise, I know arguments will have to go for the life time long.
As far as your comments on the part of my post pertaining to those who went abroad for qualification are concerned, again my analysis leaves me with no choice except to conclude your style in line with the initial paragraph of this post. I said DOOR KAY DHOLE SUHAANEY. I no where mentioned that no one should go abroad. Have I? Further you pointed out one previous post where I showed intention to move to middle east. Dear, going for establishing a business/practice and going for making a qualification career are entirely two different things. I wonder how roughly you mingle up the things. If you have to do so, please do it neatly. Moreover, even if one has to move abroad for establishing practice/business, he must not think that he will find all the honey without a single bee. If you remember my earlier post which you mentioned about my intentions to go abraod, you must not forget that in that post I concluded that it was not feasible for me to go there. I also perhaps mentioned that I may think about it on some later stage. You again while mentioning that post recalled about "NOT GOING TO PRAYER" and forgot "IF YOU ARE DRUNK/INTOXICATED". It's amazing. Is it not? Since I was basically discussing those who leave for getting foreign qualification (and not for jobs) therefore, it has relevance to the main issue and does not distract the attention. You cannot declare it as such.
Coming to your point of Sawal Chana Jawab Ganddam. Rest assure it's not Shoaib who posted the Jawab. I concentrated on the area where a student should focus his thoughts and ambitions. It's study and qualification which counts and which has to be considered. HR policies are of course available in every big firm, which are not compuslorily to be verified by each student. (In my office students have full access to all such policies). A student is basically not a final decision maker. He is allocated a specific work that is reviewed at number of stages before conclusion. Accordingly students are students and are not the specific stake-holders (employees or officers) of a firm. Thats why they are affected by the generality of HR policies but not specifically.
They are not the employees. They dont have to get rules for sick, pay and other leaves, they cant claim separate cabins within the offices, separate phone lines, re-imbursement of exepnses that are specific to employees, they dont ask for vehicles or fix fuel entitlements, they cant ask for retirement benefits, they cant ask for participation in management and partners meetings unless considered necessary by stakeholders, they cant ask monetary benefits for late sittings on overtime workings (though in so many firms they are provided credit leaves) and so on.
In fact nothing has really to be confirmed from them unless they have the required knowledge and skills. The utmost so-called HR issues of students are allocations, late sittings, credit leaves etc which are up to the mark in some of the good firms I personally know. Yes, they are in the stage of getting/learning something and they must not consider themselves employees or to the worst as labourers. It would be harmful for theirownselves. It is not strange if your mind does not accept it. So many minds dont accept so many things on earlier stages.
Therefore, I am still of the view that the utmost matter of importance for a student is what development has been made for his studies and training. I think a lot has been improved. If you dont agree, I cannot make you to agree. Your points of work on Human Resource Management and advocacy of friendly HR policies to motivate employees to derive their max output and ur comments about "why participative style of decision making and delegating work is always preferred? Why are we taught Organizational Behaviour and Business Management if all these theories are nothing but a piece of ....? " etc have no relevance at this stage as you are not employee, rather u r a student. You are not taught these all things to milk all the cows during your articles. Bhayya duniya khattam nahi ho jaati articles kay baad. This is to learn for life time not for these 3.50 years. You understand.
You said that I did not pay attention to "if there are practices continuing for long time that doesn't make them right"
Since principally I dont disagree to this statement thats why it did not require to be answered. But at the same time I know this line did not focus on what we were discussing. The issue which you are focussing is entirely not the issue of you people. HR policies, behaviour sceinces and other such things. I just wonder what you people have aimed at.
You mentioned
Quote
"A similar incident I'll also quote just to ellobrate the difference and for the other members to evaluate. A friend of mine working in an average firm come to me and told about his plan to move to a better firm. However, we were not sure that will he be recruited in that better firm and will he be able to get himself adjust there. I suggested him to take leaves from his firm and if he adjusts in the new place he may take the NOC from his existing firm."
UNQUOTE
You can get the answer to ur query in a counter question. Just tell me that ur firm after registering ur contract feel that u r not up to the mark as a student and does not disclose it to u and keep on interviewing new students to replace u. After finding new one more intelligent and hard working guy, if they kick you out by terminating ur contract or simply give you NOC or so-called OC, would it be a justified thing at the part of your firm??
I wonder how people create self made differences of good morals and character. Criticising the others is easier but facing similar action is severe. It would be almost a similar action but will not be digested by ur mind. Will it?
You have declared that
"Why people like Kamran sb forgets that primarily a student has to be loyal to himself then to his working place?"
If this is the case then just tell me why you object on the firms, if they give preference to their own interests in your opinion.????
I and Pracs at so many places agree with each other's statements. This is becoz at later stages people know more than the earlier stages and can speak knowing the roots of the issue.
I agree to Pracs that-
"the real change and a truly nurturing corporate enivron can be fostered into these firms, especially the Big 10 only when we have direct investments coming in and the global firms are allowed to get stakes in there associates in Pakistan. This has now happened across the border in India and things have changed by leaps and bounds there. Its going to be sooner rather than later. May not be in your life time as a CA student, but yes it will happen. A silver lining in all this is that life at your CA firm just gives you a glimpse what its going to be like in the real world, and no matter how pampered an upbringing one has had it gives you just the right skills to work your way through your first job."
This is exactly what I feel. CA firm is not a life for a student, rather it is the initiation of life. I mean professional life. Globalization and corporate culture etc are again specific to those who continue with firms as stake-holders and not merely are the students. Students have to complete a fix tenure and leave the firm, if they dont opt to be its stakeholder. Pracs is at managerial level and these things suits him a lot. But dear Shoaib, these are not your issues at this earlier stage. You only have to work and complete the tenure. You dont have to participate in management affairs unless you are invited for it. What goes wrong if I agree to Pracs statements. It does not affect my stance at all.
There is of course no contradiction in my management style which I read and my relationships with my staff. The issue is only of clarity of concepts. Students who were never able to discuss their issues feel ease at exploring their ideas in front of me. I just dont like to be docile on the matters which are raised without a reason. But of course students are students and are not among the frontline decision makers or beneficiaries of the firms. Thats why their area of HR issues is very nominal and countable on fingers. This does not call for extra ordinary HR policies. Yes, general policies, I again say, exist in every good setup.
So Shoaib, you better try some thing else rather than to find out my contradictions, as you will rarely succeed doing so. Even then I place on record that I am also a human being and there could be some contradictions un-noticed. But merely by repeating the habit of blowing "dont go to prayer" and totally ignoring "if you are drunk/intoxicated" will not help you at all.
Be logical and create acceptibility. This is just an advice. Nothing promising reaction is expected.
Regards,
Kamran.
