03-03-2008, 12:56 AM
Dear Accounting Unlimited,
There must be some personal reason of your opinions and conclusions you have drawn in your latest post.
Last time you started discussing from the small firms as a major issue. And now you say leave this topic for the time being. No wonders. Let it go.
As far as Mr. Zaidee or Mr. Sidat are concerned, it is no wonder why people go to them while they donât have so many qualifications. {first of all, extra qualifications have some other driving factors and not the ones you estimate}. Yes, you are right that Mr. Zaidee has very good expertise in taxation. He had been working on different government committees, remained ICAP president and is now SAFA president. Why? Has he done this all solely in the individual capacity? I know he is extra ordinary man. But did it work individually?
I will say certainly not. Besides his abilities, his position to work with the biggest ever firm of Pakistan having biggest ever international affiliation has worked for him along with his personal extra ordinary capabilities. Both things worked side by side. He remained among the toppers since his childhood. He got gold medal when he was doing B. Com in Hailey College, Lahore. He had been the best speaker. [In my view this is his biggest quality which has made him such a nice professional. The way he expresses the things is unique.]. His abilities could be enormous but when this was coupled with the position and opportunities he got, that made him the Zaidee of this time. This could be materially wrong but I feel that had he been a partner of some other small firm, he might have not gone to such a stage.
Apart from one's abilities, still, so much is publicized, politicized and overwhelmingly accepted. There could be so many other big names that might have more exposure and knowledge than any renowned person. Do you feel Musharraf (as he is leading the country) is the most qualified, efficient and suitable person in whole of Pakistan. But fact is, he is leading and governing it. Brain storming!!! I know some others who in my view if not more than Mr. Zaidee would also not be less than him. He is a good example but is not the only example. The issue is of preferences. What Mr. Zaidee is doing what is his preference and could be due to specific opportunities found by him which made him Mr. Zaidee. Others may have other preferences and opportunities and may have accordingly achieved their own objectives.
This is exactly what I was telling on this forum on some other thread. Every one has his own preferences and gets specific opportunities. If some one is Mr. Zaidee and if some one is not Mr. Zaidee mainly depends upon preferences and opportunities.
Now coming to the question of having extra qualifications. You pointed out Mr. Sidat. Do you know the son of Mr. Sidat is a chartered accountant as well as a qualified practicing actuary. These both things have quite different and far ending expertise. Mr. Sidat never hampered his son to have various qualifications on the basis of exposure of his life (as you point out he is best in audit to which I may not agree).
By the way, you first were talking about 4110 (almost) CAs from 160 million population of Pakistan, and now you are talking about only 2 out of those 4110. Where you want to take this discussion in fact. Let's see.
I think you have just picked up one of my posts and made all your conclusions. I so many times said that having extra qualifications never shows a lack of confidence, adopting short routes (obviously for a man who is already qualified this can never be wisely speaking a short route rather could be a quest), short sightedness, cowardice and anything else. I don't know which corner of mind deduces that a person who is already qualified and would probably be getting good returns could be declared as selecting short routes if he wants to do something extra even after securing the best already. Who told you so precisely that I may not be doing very good in my professional obligations or I donât have good exposure? I know I donât need to explain but itâs strange that you got all the desired info. Out upon the way of making this conclusion.
The objective to get ICAEW's CA is to have membership of another renowned institute that may work for instance if I wish to settle down at UK as u r probably doing. Yes, even for this purpose my preference is not ACCA as I know ICAEW is better than it. I am searching for better not for the easier. This is the difference. Even if not, having extra memberships (as one does not have to qualify total exams) does not mean that some one is not satisfied with his own qualification. However, leaving one's objective qualification just for the reason of failures and opting the other is some other thing. Can you understand it???
You are just revolving your feet from your own words where you said specialization is necessary. I agree specialization comes with practice; I am the biggest advocate of this idea. But I also feel that for specialization, it is never a bad idea to have extra qualifications. Rather, it gives diversified knowledge which if we are not going to adopt as a profession can also help us in improving our own profession in which we are working. No body that has done ACCA along with ACA was ever covered in my discussions. I always exclude them and treat them genius people in my humble views.
So if I use mind, I can figure out that there is a difference among
- the ones who are qualified and just wish to extend it due to globalization (being discussed by you) or extra knowledge or just (roughly speaking) for the sake of having extra degrees/qualifications on letterhead and visiting cards to enhance the depth of their professional relationships and activities; AND
- the ones who could not do CA and move on to ACCA or other such qualification which they feel easier in getting through.
Hope you can understand it if you wish to do so.
Now coming to the issue of globalization and restriction of my conclusions to Pakistan only. I know every one cannot move out. So first of all he/she has to save the future and then he/she can move to experiment other things. This has nothing to undermine the globalization concept. When I discuss the issues of Pakistani students, I talk in much micro perspective. A student, while he is a student has nothing concern with the professional issues you are discussing while sitting at UK. The first preference for him is to save his future and provide a good return to his elders for their efforts and investment. We would be the biggest hypocrites if we ignore this fact. If some one puts in his 4 to 5 years in ACCA and his parents tell every one that their son is doing chartered accountancy. Now CA has a repute and expectation level generally. When their son will complete ACCA and the results would not be as expected, every one could have a shock. This is what required to be told to the students who feel ACCA and ACA are same things. Whoever discusses with me, I tell him these are not the same.
Globalization!!! If some one is happier with having an ACCA qualification, it is good for him. But do you feel any where in the world it is better than the main (biggest) charter holders of the countries in specific. I mean in Pakistan, is it better than CA honestly?, in UK is it better than ICAEW's CA honestly speaking?, in Autralia is ACCA better than CA of ICAA? Do you think so honestly speaking? In Canada, is it better than CA of Canadian Institute of chartered accountants? Do you really feel ACCA is better than CPA in USA?......and so on..... Leave the things like what the study material they developed, how they helped students (who were not getting through other qualifications), and bala bala. Just tell me with above specific reference, where ACCA is better than the biggest charter holder of any specific country. I don't know of which globalization you are talking about. Do you mean by globalization that wherever some one is faced by failures, ACCA rescues him? I donât have any definite observations against ACCA but these are just the answers of your questions.
Things should be clarified I think.
Here again I don't talk about the ones who have ACCA as an additional qualification. In my view additional qualifications are very good to have international recognitions, vast activities at various forums, having diversified sources of information....[do you close down all other news channel if you have one say BBC].....and getting the benefits of developments made by different minds of different regions.
Why people of Pakistan are crazy for extra qualifications? Is it some thing wrong you feel? If you feel, I donât comment on your personal conclusion. I think we should thank God if some one wishes to educate his-self further. We are basically un-educated nation. Why should we oppose the idea of improving education and qualification? I could not get hold of your thinking and conclusion. After all no one will give his membership freely without testing you as per his standard. Yes, there could be difference in standards and one has to make the choice for the best. This is what I want to convey.
Short route's philosophy has already been well discussed. To a Pakistani CA (at Pakistan) any additional foreign qualification may not pay any material returns. He does not have to adopt a short route to get something overnight. Mind it. He has already done with this craze. Is not he? If you try to understand the reason why people want to have additional qualifications even without having additional returns you can yourself get the answer.
Hope you will not mind my submissions and give them a thoughtful consideration.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
There must be some personal reason of your opinions and conclusions you have drawn in your latest post.
Last time you started discussing from the small firms as a major issue. And now you say leave this topic for the time being. No wonders. Let it go.
As far as Mr. Zaidee or Mr. Sidat are concerned, it is no wonder why people go to them while they donât have so many qualifications. {first of all, extra qualifications have some other driving factors and not the ones you estimate}. Yes, you are right that Mr. Zaidee has very good expertise in taxation. He had been working on different government committees, remained ICAP president and is now SAFA president. Why? Has he done this all solely in the individual capacity? I know he is extra ordinary man. But did it work individually?
I will say certainly not. Besides his abilities, his position to work with the biggest ever firm of Pakistan having biggest ever international affiliation has worked for him along with his personal extra ordinary capabilities. Both things worked side by side. He remained among the toppers since his childhood. He got gold medal when he was doing B. Com in Hailey College, Lahore. He had been the best speaker. [In my view this is his biggest quality which has made him such a nice professional. The way he expresses the things is unique.]. His abilities could be enormous but when this was coupled with the position and opportunities he got, that made him the Zaidee of this time. This could be materially wrong but I feel that had he been a partner of some other small firm, he might have not gone to such a stage.
Apart from one's abilities, still, so much is publicized, politicized and overwhelmingly accepted. There could be so many other big names that might have more exposure and knowledge than any renowned person. Do you feel Musharraf (as he is leading the country) is the most qualified, efficient and suitable person in whole of Pakistan. But fact is, he is leading and governing it. Brain storming!!! I know some others who in my view if not more than Mr. Zaidee would also not be less than him. He is a good example but is not the only example. The issue is of preferences. What Mr. Zaidee is doing what is his preference and could be due to specific opportunities found by him which made him Mr. Zaidee. Others may have other preferences and opportunities and may have accordingly achieved their own objectives.
This is exactly what I was telling on this forum on some other thread. Every one has his own preferences and gets specific opportunities. If some one is Mr. Zaidee and if some one is not Mr. Zaidee mainly depends upon preferences and opportunities.
Now coming to the question of having extra qualifications. You pointed out Mr. Sidat. Do you know the son of Mr. Sidat is a chartered accountant as well as a qualified practicing actuary. These both things have quite different and far ending expertise. Mr. Sidat never hampered his son to have various qualifications on the basis of exposure of his life (as you point out he is best in audit to which I may not agree).
By the way, you first were talking about 4110 (almost) CAs from 160 million population of Pakistan, and now you are talking about only 2 out of those 4110. Where you want to take this discussion in fact. Let's see.
I think you have just picked up one of my posts and made all your conclusions. I so many times said that having extra qualifications never shows a lack of confidence, adopting short routes (obviously for a man who is already qualified this can never be wisely speaking a short route rather could be a quest), short sightedness, cowardice and anything else. I don't know which corner of mind deduces that a person who is already qualified and would probably be getting good returns could be declared as selecting short routes if he wants to do something extra even after securing the best already. Who told you so precisely that I may not be doing very good in my professional obligations or I donât have good exposure? I know I donât need to explain but itâs strange that you got all the desired info. Out upon the way of making this conclusion.
The objective to get ICAEW's CA is to have membership of another renowned institute that may work for instance if I wish to settle down at UK as u r probably doing. Yes, even for this purpose my preference is not ACCA as I know ICAEW is better than it. I am searching for better not for the easier. This is the difference. Even if not, having extra memberships (as one does not have to qualify total exams) does not mean that some one is not satisfied with his own qualification. However, leaving one's objective qualification just for the reason of failures and opting the other is some other thing. Can you understand it???
You are just revolving your feet from your own words where you said specialization is necessary. I agree specialization comes with practice; I am the biggest advocate of this idea. But I also feel that for specialization, it is never a bad idea to have extra qualifications. Rather, it gives diversified knowledge which if we are not going to adopt as a profession can also help us in improving our own profession in which we are working. No body that has done ACCA along with ACA was ever covered in my discussions. I always exclude them and treat them genius people in my humble views.
So if I use mind, I can figure out that there is a difference among
- the ones who are qualified and just wish to extend it due to globalization (being discussed by you) or extra knowledge or just (roughly speaking) for the sake of having extra degrees/qualifications on letterhead and visiting cards to enhance the depth of their professional relationships and activities; AND
- the ones who could not do CA and move on to ACCA or other such qualification which they feel easier in getting through.
Hope you can understand it if you wish to do so.
Now coming to the issue of globalization and restriction of my conclusions to Pakistan only. I know every one cannot move out. So first of all he/she has to save the future and then he/she can move to experiment other things. This has nothing to undermine the globalization concept. When I discuss the issues of Pakistani students, I talk in much micro perspective. A student, while he is a student has nothing concern with the professional issues you are discussing while sitting at UK. The first preference for him is to save his future and provide a good return to his elders for their efforts and investment. We would be the biggest hypocrites if we ignore this fact. If some one puts in his 4 to 5 years in ACCA and his parents tell every one that their son is doing chartered accountancy. Now CA has a repute and expectation level generally. When their son will complete ACCA and the results would not be as expected, every one could have a shock. This is what required to be told to the students who feel ACCA and ACA are same things. Whoever discusses with me, I tell him these are not the same.
Globalization!!! If some one is happier with having an ACCA qualification, it is good for him. But do you feel any where in the world it is better than the main (biggest) charter holders of the countries in specific. I mean in Pakistan, is it better than CA honestly?, in UK is it better than ICAEW's CA honestly speaking?, in Autralia is ACCA better than CA of ICAA? Do you think so honestly speaking? In Canada, is it better than CA of Canadian Institute of chartered accountants? Do you really feel ACCA is better than CPA in USA?......and so on..... Leave the things like what the study material they developed, how they helped students (who were not getting through other qualifications), and bala bala. Just tell me with above specific reference, where ACCA is better than the biggest charter holder of any specific country. I don't know of which globalization you are talking about. Do you mean by globalization that wherever some one is faced by failures, ACCA rescues him? I donât have any definite observations against ACCA but these are just the answers of your questions.
Things should be clarified I think.
Here again I don't talk about the ones who have ACCA as an additional qualification. In my view additional qualifications are very good to have international recognitions, vast activities at various forums, having diversified sources of information....[do you close down all other news channel if you have one say BBC].....and getting the benefits of developments made by different minds of different regions.
Why people of Pakistan are crazy for extra qualifications? Is it some thing wrong you feel? If you feel, I donât comment on your personal conclusion. I think we should thank God if some one wishes to educate his-self further. We are basically un-educated nation. Why should we oppose the idea of improving education and qualification? I could not get hold of your thinking and conclusion. After all no one will give his membership freely without testing you as per his standard. Yes, there could be difference in standards and one has to make the choice for the best. This is what I want to convey.
Short route's philosophy has already been well discussed. To a Pakistani CA (at Pakistan) any additional foreign qualification may not pay any material returns. He does not have to adopt a short route to get something overnight. Mind it. He has already done with this craze. Is not he? If you try to understand the reason why people want to have additional qualifications even without having additional returns you can yourself get the answer.
Hope you will not mind my submissions and give them a thoughtful consideration.
Regards,
KAMRAN.
