09-20-2004, 09:18 AM
hi
cant answer Mr Farhan, would like him to read books other than what he's been taught in Pakistan Studies.
in response to Prac's msg.
the best way i can think of is to quote u whereever possible and ask some very simple straight forward questions.
QUOTE #1
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>)) Yes we are the Pakistani nation !! true.. and muslims or christians or Hindus or Parsis or Sikhs etc.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
so when it comes to Pakistan - we become a nation, two nation theory referred Pak and India as two nations not Muslims and Hindu? we can be muslim , hindu, sikh, parsi, christian and can still be called ONE NATION if we are Pakistani (a nation).
if that is true than we were one nation before partition, the only difference was our name......we were Indians then.
QUOTE # 2
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>â You will find that in the course of time, Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as the citizen of the stateâ â Muhammed Ali Jinnah â Quaid e Azam. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
the passage itself contradicts with the ideology and justification of two nation theory. if Mr Jinnah knew that religion will become personal faith then what was the point of having a POLITICAL COUNTRY on religious grounds.........we could always be called INDIANS (citizen of the state) and remain muslims in faith.
QUOTE # 3
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Unfortunately the very ideology of Pakistan was hijaked after independence,.. people who sat on the fence and cried wolf became the country's gaurdians its Masihah.. well that is another argument all together,, some other day.
But Yes we are Pakistani first and foremost and muslims undoubtdly, the Muslim Ummah, Azeem, is dead ! you just need to take a look at the OIC and the 52 (or is it 54 now) muslim countries. We may have an Islamic state some where down the time line.. under Imam Mehdi. but that is destiny.. for now we are a Pakistani nation ,, and should think of ourselves as such .. Pakistan first and last.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
agree thats a seprate debate, also agree that Muslim Ummah is dead.
slight disagreement on the probabilities of joint effort or atleast a first step towards a united islamic block (ofcourse not in a geographical sense), i m quite optimistic about it and infact forsee it happening soon........perhaps a joint aggression of two notorioUS powers against Iran (which is very likely) might instigate a big change in OUR thinking. anyway thats something we are not discussing now.
QUOTE # 4
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> We may have yes.... but the thing is,.. the merger of India and Pakistan would have been an artificial thing.. a cosmetic operation... these are and will remain different regions, they have been so historically even in pre Islamic times. The concept of a Pakistan was to have enough minorities (of Hindus and Sikhs) in Pakistan so as to make the minorities in both countries comfortable Congress played the part of villian and had Punjab and Bengal partitioned.. The league wanted these provinces un partitioned in Paksitan.. then Kahmir happened.. that is why Jinnah refered it to as Moth eaten Pakistan... Jinnah left his house in Bombay intact, his two cars and purchased the shares of a new IPO the Air India comapany ! simply that he wanted India and Pakistan to fucntion and live side by side as Canada and US... as these regions had done in the Past !! So Pakistan is as natural as Iran or England.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
riots were going on well before the partition, i dont know who could think of a peaceful partition then. Jinnah was an intelligent brain, he exactly knew what was happening, due to his illnes and immense pressure of the attrocities he speculated - he almost accepted whatever finally offered - i know Congress was no angel - but thats politics is all about - Jinnah did extremely well but it was an unfinished job.
not just his property and cars, his daughter still lives in INDIA.
QUOTE # 5
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>That sounds more of like for argument sake... there are no further nations in Pakistan there are people who speak different languages !! Iran has people who speak Persian and minorities speaking blauchi, tajik, uzbek, even arabs.. does that mean Iran cannot function as a country. Malaysia has people speaking and of different origins,, Malay, chinese mandrian, Tamil etc.. is Malaysia not a country ? Iraq has a shia - suni,.. population do we divide into two no... then why do we think of Pakistan on the same lines ?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
i dont know what it takes to describe people as a separate nation, following diffs come in my mind
- Religion
- Language
- Colour
- Culture
- Logistics
- Hatred
starting with religion - everyother firqa or maslak is non-muslim to the other one, we speak diff languages, yes we all have diff colour (yes i m quite fair)) our culture is diversed like NWFP and Baluchistan are more conservative, logistically every single province has more similarities with our neibouring countries then with any pakistani province, for eg Baluchistan share similarities with Iran - NWFP with Afghanistan - Punjab with Punjab and Sindh with Gujrat. i m in my late 20s and i have seen enough hatred and socio politic prejudice in Pakistan. i have spent 25 years of my life in Karachi and have witnessed REAL violence and blood shed b/w Mahajir Vs Pathans, Sindhi Vs Mahagirs, etc etc.
well thats not my point - i totally agree with you - we cant make separate homelands on the above issues..........then what was the issue when Pakistan was created???
ever wondered how many people have been killed in Pak & India during the last 57 years, whether during wars, religious riots, freedom struggle etc. i guess thousands and thousands of people died........it would never have happened .........dont know who gained from partition.
QUOTE # 6
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Well the ratio would have been something like 3070 and we just left behind 130 million or 13 crore Muslims in India and not 30 crore .. there are muslims outside of India in south asia around 30 crores(15 crore Pak + 13.5 crore Bengla. If you go by Canada-US model.. we did not abandon them... there was only one new change which was migrators from the North India to Pakistan, these people were asked by Jinnah to come over simply becasue they were better educated and Pakistan needed them...I think the position in an undivided India would have been more difficult and bloody..remember the language riots and other like wise riots in Bengal pre partition... two huge communities cannot live with each other at logger heads,, but a majority and minority can !!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
population at present
Pakistan = 15 - 16 crore
India = 20 - 22 crore
Bangladesh = 15 - 16 crore
on a prudent side it totals 50 crore against 80 crore hindus, the ratio comes to something like 4060 at present
come on pracs! i didnt expect it from u,
"two huge communities cannot live with each other at logger heads,, but a majority and minority can !!"
yes one big majority and minority can live happily as a MASTER SLAVE relationship..........there can be only two situations either hindu muslims could not live together or they could. historically they lived for about a millenium (whether in one country as a whole or in diff states) and for the last half century they have survived even as a minority.
obviously 6040 ratio would have boosted the lives of muslims in South Asia and we would have been more UNITED as muslims.
QUOTE # 7
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The Founding fathers did not dream the concept of Pakistan in sleep and no Iqbal did not just forget Bengal.. he was working on the same historical prospect of Pakistan,, Bangladesh has been in hstory either part of India or an independent region ! so what happened in 1971 was natural the bengalis were never meant to be Pakistanis.. the original Lahore resolution authored Sherae Bengal Fazlurehman .. spoke of muslim nations ! not muslim nation, not Islamic nation, not Islamic nations.... our history books have been doctored by people who have brought this country to the mess it is ! We lived with them together for 900 years... but ever in a single country !! don't forget that.. and even in India the Muslims ruled !! but never in the same country except for during the Mughals (the four kings) and Asoka... the British had hundreds of Princley states.. so it was never one country either..
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
i m sorry i dont want to answer this - i will be labelled a racist,
just an indication to u and u are wise enough to read b/w the lines, bengal was in every sense superior to punjab......what we witnessed in 1971 was the finishing touch. we never wanted bengal - we never wanted their rule.
QUOTE # 9 LAST BUT NOT THE LEAST
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Just like to add that,.. it does not matter so much as to if you agree with what or how or why Pakistan was made.. as long as you are a citizen now.. and have your loyalties towards Pakistan.. I will respect you more the same...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
its true, creation itself doesnt need to be justified, i dont want to justify why pak or why not pak? i am a pakistani and a proud one, nobody can doubt my loyalties just because i dont agree with their views, i m no less patriotic then them. i love my country and will remain do. i dont have to justify why i was created - I am Pakistan infact Islamic Republic of Pakistan, needed or not is history.
"even our name says Islamic before Pak."
congrats!!! we are victoriuos yet again, lets hope we raise the ICC cup this time.
Allah hafiz
azeem
cant answer Mr Farhan, would like him to read books other than what he's been taught in Pakistan Studies.
in response to Prac's msg.
the best way i can think of is to quote u whereever possible and ask some very simple straight forward questions.
QUOTE #1
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>)) Yes we are the Pakistani nation !! true.. and muslims or christians or Hindus or Parsis or Sikhs etc.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
so when it comes to Pakistan - we become a nation, two nation theory referred Pak and India as two nations not Muslims and Hindu? we can be muslim , hindu, sikh, parsi, christian and can still be called ONE NATION if we are Pakistani (a nation).
if that is true than we were one nation before partition, the only difference was our name......we were Indians then.
QUOTE # 2
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>â You will find that in the course of time, Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as the citizen of the stateâ â Muhammed Ali Jinnah â Quaid e Azam. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
the passage itself contradicts with the ideology and justification of two nation theory. if Mr Jinnah knew that religion will become personal faith then what was the point of having a POLITICAL COUNTRY on religious grounds.........we could always be called INDIANS (citizen of the state) and remain muslims in faith.
QUOTE # 3
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Unfortunately the very ideology of Pakistan was hijaked after independence,.. people who sat on the fence and cried wolf became the country's gaurdians its Masihah.. well that is another argument all together,, some other day.
But Yes we are Pakistani first and foremost and muslims undoubtdly, the Muslim Ummah, Azeem, is dead ! you just need to take a look at the OIC and the 52 (or is it 54 now) muslim countries. We may have an Islamic state some where down the time line.. under Imam Mehdi. but that is destiny.. for now we are a Pakistani nation ,, and should think of ourselves as such .. Pakistan first and last.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
agree thats a seprate debate, also agree that Muslim Ummah is dead.
slight disagreement on the probabilities of joint effort or atleast a first step towards a united islamic block (ofcourse not in a geographical sense), i m quite optimistic about it and infact forsee it happening soon........perhaps a joint aggression of two notorioUS powers against Iran (which is very likely) might instigate a big change in OUR thinking. anyway thats something we are not discussing now.
QUOTE # 4
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> We may have yes.... but the thing is,.. the merger of India and Pakistan would have been an artificial thing.. a cosmetic operation... these are and will remain different regions, they have been so historically even in pre Islamic times. The concept of a Pakistan was to have enough minorities (of Hindus and Sikhs) in Pakistan so as to make the minorities in both countries comfortable Congress played the part of villian and had Punjab and Bengal partitioned.. The league wanted these provinces un partitioned in Paksitan.. then Kahmir happened.. that is why Jinnah refered it to as Moth eaten Pakistan... Jinnah left his house in Bombay intact, his two cars and purchased the shares of a new IPO the Air India comapany ! simply that he wanted India and Pakistan to fucntion and live side by side as Canada and US... as these regions had done in the Past !! So Pakistan is as natural as Iran or England.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
riots were going on well before the partition, i dont know who could think of a peaceful partition then. Jinnah was an intelligent brain, he exactly knew what was happening, due to his illnes and immense pressure of the attrocities he speculated - he almost accepted whatever finally offered - i know Congress was no angel - but thats politics is all about - Jinnah did extremely well but it was an unfinished job.
not just his property and cars, his daughter still lives in INDIA.
QUOTE # 5
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>That sounds more of like for argument sake... there are no further nations in Pakistan there are people who speak different languages !! Iran has people who speak Persian and minorities speaking blauchi, tajik, uzbek, even arabs.. does that mean Iran cannot function as a country. Malaysia has people speaking and of different origins,, Malay, chinese mandrian, Tamil etc.. is Malaysia not a country ? Iraq has a shia - suni,.. population do we divide into two no... then why do we think of Pakistan on the same lines ?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
i dont know what it takes to describe people as a separate nation, following diffs come in my mind
- Religion
- Language
- Colour
- Culture
- Logistics
- Hatred
starting with religion - everyother firqa or maslak is non-muslim to the other one, we speak diff languages, yes we all have diff colour (yes i m quite fair)) our culture is diversed like NWFP and Baluchistan are more conservative, logistically every single province has more similarities with our neibouring countries then with any pakistani province, for eg Baluchistan share similarities with Iran - NWFP with Afghanistan - Punjab with Punjab and Sindh with Gujrat. i m in my late 20s and i have seen enough hatred and socio politic prejudice in Pakistan. i have spent 25 years of my life in Karachi and have witnessed REAL violence and blood shed b/w Mahajir Vs Pathans, Sindhi Vs Mahagirs, etc etc.
well thats not my point - i totally agree with you - we cant make separate homelands on the above issues..........then what was the issue when Pakistan was created???
ever wondered how many people have been killed in Pak & India during the last 57 years, whether during wars, religious riots, freedom struggle etc. i guess thousands and thousands of people died........it would never have happened .........dont know who gained from partition.
QUOTE # 6
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Well the ratio would have been something like 3070 and we just left behind 130 million or 13 crore Muslims in India and not 30 crore .. there are muslims outside of India in south asia around 30 crores(15 crore Pak + 13.5 crore Bengla. If you go by Canada-US model.. we did not abandon them... there was only one new change which was migrators from the North India to Pakistan, these people were asked by Jinnah to come over simply becasue they were better educated and Pakistan needed them...I think the position in an undivided India would have been more difficult and bloody..remember the language riots and other like wise riots in Bengal pre partition... two huge communities cannot live with each other at logger heads,, but a majority and minority can !!
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
population at present
Pakistan = 15 - 16 crore
India = 20 - 22 crore
Bangladesh = 15 - 16 crore
on a prudent side it totals 50 crore against 80 crore hindus, the ratio comes to something like 4060 at present
come on pracs! i didnt expect it from u,
"two huge communities cannot live with each other at logger heads,, but a majority and minority can !!"
yes one big majority and minority can live happily as a MASTER SLAVE relationship..........there can be only two situations either hindu muslims could not live together or they could. historically they lived for about a millenium (whether in one country as a whole or in diff states) and for the last half century they have survived even as a minority.
obviously 6040 ratio would have boosted the lives of muslims in South Asia and we would have been more UNITED as muslims.
QUOTE # 7
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The Founding fathers did not dream the concept of Pakistan in sleep and no Iqbal did not just forget Bengal.. he was working on the same historical prospect of Pakistan,, Bangladesh has been in hstory either part of India or an independent region ! so what happened in 1971 was natural the bengalis were never meant to be Pakistanis.. the original Lahore resolution authored Sherae Bengal Fazlurehman .. spoke of muslim nations ! not muslim nation, not Islamic nation, not Islamic nations.... our history books have been doctored by people who have brought this country to the mess it is ! We lived with them together for 900 years... but ever in a single country !! don't forget that.. and even in India the Muslims ruled !! but never in the same country except for during the Mughals (the four kings) and Asoka... the British had hundreds of Princley states.. so it was never one country either..
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
i m sorry i dont want to answer this - i will be labelled a racist,
just an indication to u and u are wise enough to read b/w the lines, bengal was in every sense superior to punjab......what we witnessed in 1971 was the finishing touch. we never wanted bengal - we never wanted their rule.
QUOTE # 9 LAST BUT NOT THE LEAST
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Just like to add that,.. it does not matter so much as to if you agree with what or how or why Pakistan was made.. as long as you are a citizen now.. and have your loyalties towards Pakistan.. I will respect you more the same...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
its true, creation itself doesnt need to be justified, i dont want to justify why pak or why not pak? i am a pakistani and a proud one, nobody can doubt my loyalties just because i dont agree with their views, i m no less patriotic then them. i love my country and will remain do. i dont have to justify why i was created - I am Pakistan infact Islamic Republic of Pakistan, needed or not is history.
"even our name says Islamic before Pak."
congrats!!! we are victoriuos yet again, lets hope we raise the ICC cup this time.
Allah hafiz
azeem
