AASR in Lahore

kamranACA · 10-07-2007, 04:00 PM

Dear Shoaib,

I did not mind your post. It was alo not to take much amount of time.

In fact soon after EID I have to visit some Gulf states (Jordan, Syria, Oman, UAE etc) in connection with some business work for a client. This, coupled with other things scheduled to be completed before Eid, has created some rush.

I hope I will come back to you very soon.

Regards,

Kamran.

Astute Accountant · 10-08-2007, 05:02 PM

@ Schuaeb Bhai
That's like a good person!!!!!! Now you have granted me the NOC, thanks for it.......
By the way, you might be impressed by my Punjabi, but be prepared next time I'll talk to you in the 4th laguage (English, Urdu, and Pnjabi being the first three). And you may have to "pay" someone to get it translated............ D

kamranACA · 10-08-2007, 09:39 PM

Dear Shoaib,

There had been a verse in the Holy Quran which means "Do not Go for Prayer, if you are drunk/intoxicated". Now some people (who have to drive the meanings of their own choice by using one part and by ignoring the other) have been since ages using the first part of this verse to avoid the prayers.

You have exactly done the same while drafting your above post. At so many places you used one part of my argument to draw conclusion while leaving the other facet behind just to fulfill your own purposes. Thatâs what you mentioned at the outset that now you are eliminating the difference between debate-for-the-sake-of-debate and healthy discussion. However, I would like to appreciate that you in some area followed my logic.

Like you have made me a Miaan Mithoo before starting the battle of words (which I dont want to become), I also wish to mention for record purpose that you are among those members of this forum for whom I have developed liking and appreciation. Reasons could be enormous. It's not purposed to give you a room to get to a Miaan Mithoo state of mind by taking the edge of these remarks. Of course we are in similar profession and we should appreciate those who appear to be capable of it.

While discussing the IDEAL MACHINE remarks included in my post you tried what I mentioned at the onset of this post. You said that I am rejecting the idea of idealism and at the same time I am apreciating to pursue it. You ignored delibrately the following part of those remarks

"So, idealism is likely to be pursued but it does not have to be achieved entirely. "

It is my view that we must strive for idealism, becoz it has to be beneficial for the mankind keeping in mind the progressive approach. But we should not curse our lives, environment, systems, employers, seniors, teachers and general set up just becoz we have not at a given point of time reached the idealism. I mentioned that Idealism cannot be ENTIRELY achieved and it has never been achieved any where in the world. This is some thing to satisfy the inner questions of the student minds which have so many emerging dis-agreements and confusions. This does not mean to eliminate the chances of positive creativity. This is just to understand, otherwise, I know arguments will have to go for the life time long.

As far as your comments on the part of my post pertaining to those who went abroad for qualification are concerned, again my analysis leaves me with no choice except to conclude your style in line with the initial paragraph of this post. I said DOOR KAY DHOLE SUHAANEY. I no where mentioned that no one should go abroad. Have I? Further you pointed out one previous post where I showed intention to move to middle east. Dear, going for establishing a business/practice and going for making a qualification career are entirely two different things. I wonder how roughly you mingle up the things. If you have to do so, please do it neatly. Moreover, even if one has to move abroad for establishing practice/business, he must not think that he will find all the honey without a single bee. If you remember my earlier post which you mentioned about my intentions to go abraod, you must not forget that in that post I concluded that it was not feasible for me to go there. I also perhaps mentioned that I may think about it on some later stage. You again while mentioning that post recalled about "NOT GOING TO PRAYER" and forgot "IF YOU ARE DRUNK/INTOXICATED". It's amazing. Is it not? Since I was basically discussing those who leave for getting foreign qualification (and not for jobs) therefore, it has relevance to the main issue and does not distract the attention. You cannot declare it as such.

Coming to your point of Sawal Chana Jawab Ganddam. Rest assure it's not Shoaib who posted the Jawab. I concentrated on the area where a student should focus his thoughts and ambitions. It's study and qualification which counts and which has to be considered. HR policies are of course available in every big firm, which are not compuslorily to be verified by each student. (In my office students have full access to all such policies). A student is basically not a final decision maker. He is allocated a specific work that is reviewed at number of stages before conclusion. Accordingly students are students and are not the specific stake-holders (employees or officers) of a firm. Thats why they are affected by the generality of HR policies but not specifically.

They are not the employees. They dont have to get rules for sick, pay and other leaves, they cant claim separate cabins within the offices, separate phone lines, re-imbursement of exepnses that are specific to employees, they dont ask for vehicles or fix fuel entitlements, they cant ask for retirement benefits, they cant ask for participation in management and partners meetings unless considered necessary by stakeholders, they cant ask monetary benefits for late sittings on overtime workings (though in so many firms they are provided credit leaves) and so on.

In fact nothing has really to be confirmed from them unless they have the required knowledge and skills. The utmost so-called HR issues of students are allocations, late sittings, credit leaves etc which are up to the mark in some of the good firms I personally know. Yes, they are in the stage of getting/learning something and they must not consider themselves employees or to the worst as labourers. It would be harmful for theirownselves. It is not strange if your mind does not accept it. So many minds dont accept so many things on earlier stages.

Therefore, I am still of the view that the utmost matter of importance for a student is what development has been made for his studies and training. I think a lot has been improved. If you dont agree, I cannot make you to agree. Your points of work on Human Resource Management and advocacy of friendly HR policies to motivate employees to derive their max output and ur comments about "why participative style of decision making and delegating work is always preferred? Why are we taught Organizational Behaviour and Business Management if all these theories are nothing but a piece of ....? " etc have no relevance at this stage as you are not employee, rather u r a student. You are not taught these all things to milk all the cows during your articles. Bhayya duniya khattam nahi ho jaati articles kay baad. This is to learn for life time not for these 3.50 years. You understand.

You said that I did not pay attention to "if there are practices continuing for long time that doesn't make them right"

Since principally I dont disagree to this statement thats why it did not require to be answered. But at the same time I know this line did not focus on what we were discussing. The issue which you are focussing is entirely not the issue of you people. HR policies, behaviour sceinces and other such things. I just wonder what you people have aimed at.

You mentioned

Quote

"A similar incident I'll also quote just to ellobrate the difference and for the other members to evaluate. A friend of mine working in an average firm come to me and told about his plan to move to a better firm. However, we were not sure that will he be recruited in that better firm and will he be able to get himself adjust there. I suggested him to take leaves from his firm and if he adjusts in the new place he may take the NOC from his existing firm."

UNQUOTE

You can get the answer to ur query in a counter question. Just tell me that ur firm after registering ur contract feel that u r not up to the mark as a student and does not disclose it to u and keep on interviewing new students to replace u. After finding new one more intelligent and hard working guy, if they kick you out by terminating ur contract or simply give you NOC or so-called OC, would it be a justified thing at the part of your firm??

I wonder how people create self made differences of good morals and character. Criticising the others is easier but facing similar action is severe. It would be almost a similar action but will not be digested by ur mind. Will it?

You have declared that

"Why people like Kamran sb forgets that primarily a student has to be loyal to himself then to his working place?"

If this is the case then just tell me why you object on the firms, if they give preference to their own interests in your opinion.????

I and Pracs at so many places agree with each other's statements. This is becoz at later stages people know more than the earlier stages and can speak knowing the roots of the issue.

I agree to Pracs that-

"the real change and a truly nurturing corporate enivron can be fostered into these firms, especially the Big 10 only when we have direct investments coming in and the global firms are allowed to get stakes in there associates in Pakistan. This has now happened across the border in India and things have changed by leaps and bounds there. Its going to be sooner rather than later. May not be in your life time as a CA student, but yes it will happen. A silver lining in all this is that life at your CA firm just gives you a glimpse what its going to be like in the real world, and no matter how pampered an upbringing one has had it gives you just the right skills to work your way through your first job."

This is exactly what I feel. CA firm is not a life for a student, rather it is the initiation of life. I mean professional life. Globalization and corporate culture etc are again specific to those who continue with firms as stake-holders and not merely are the students. Students have to complete a fix tenure and leave the firm, if they dont opt to be its stakeholder. Pracs is at managerial level and these things suits him a lot. But dear Shoaib, these are not your issues at this earlier stage. You only have to work and complete the tenure. You dont have to participate in management affairs unless you are invited for it. What goes wrong if I agree to Pracs statements. It does not affect my stance at all.

There is of course no contradiction in my management style which I read and my relationships with my staff. The issue is only of clarity of concepts. Students who were never able to discuss their issues feel ease at exploring their ideas in front of me. I just dont like to be docile on the matters which are raised without a reason. But of course students are students and are not among the frontline decision makers or beneficiaries of the firms. Thats why their area of HR issues is very nominal and countable on fingers. This does not call for extra ordinary HR policies. Yes, general policies, I again say, exist in every good setup.

So Shoaib, you better try some thing else rather than to find out my contradictions, as you will rarely succeed doing so. Even then I place on record that I am also a human being and there could be some contradictions un-noticed. But merely by repeating the habit of blowing "dont go to prayer" and totally ignoring "if you are drunk/intoxicated" will not help you at all.

Be logical and create acceptibility. This is just an advice. Nothing promising reaction is expected.

Regards,

Kamran.

Schuaeb · 10-10-2007, 03:03 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Astute Accountant
 @ Schuaeb Bhai
That's like a good person!!!!!! Now you have granted me the NOC, thanks for it.......
By the way, you might be impressed by my Punjabi, but be prepared next time I'll talk to you in the 4th laguage (English, Urdu, and Pnjabi being the first three). And you may have to "pay" someone to get it translated............ D
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jao dia yaar noc now say whatever u lik. Yes i am really impressed by ur punjabi and i had to reassess mine after reading urs. Jab apki punjabi hazam ho gai to anay do is fourth generation language ko bhi dekh lain gay ussay

Schuaeb · 10-10-2007, 03:15 AM

Kamran one thing has become obvious that you need much time for a reply. (however, it took me almost two hours to compose my last post) I guess devil is to be given his due sometimes, but you may have your own more logical logics.

Chalo aik baat to hoi ke at least you bothered to recognize the difference between a debate-for-the-sake-of-debate and healthy discussion. Now don't say no, you have admitted yourself. And if its a point game I have scored one point.

This post of yours require some mental poise (because I am not as intelligent as you are), so I will come to it within a couple of days.

noman · 10-10-2007, 04:18 AM

my point........its not going to end......

kamranACA · 10-10-2007, 04:20 PM

Dear,

For the sake of debate, as for myself is concerned, I never differentiate among various sort of discussions pointed out by you. I just remind you that you have agreed to my point of view, as sometimes earlier you were negating it.

I believe I did not take much time while narrating reply to your post. In fact offering a reply to a student is not a big deal.

Waiting for your reply where I dont expect any promising reaction

Regards,

Kamran.

Schuaeb · 10-11-2007, 01:06 AM

Dear Kamran,

Offerring a reply to a qualified chartered accountant requires a lot of time and this may be due to the reason he so effectively mingles up things and prefers to keep on circumlocating instead of remaining focused to the main point. And he himself is the judge of right and wrong, crieteria being to simple; what he says is right; others, wrong. This may be due to the reason he is a qualified chartered accountant who uses ACA with his name. I wonder why he does so (using ACA with name), may be he himself is not sure of it or he doubts that others may doubt. Whatever is the reason we should be least bothered. Also, he mistakenly considers everbody Amir. But some people may remind him that he is not the fountainhead of all the knowledge and logic in this world.

I wish his replies and logics could be evaluated by some rational third person.

Schuaeb · 10-11-2007, 01:10 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by noman
 my point........its not going to end......
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Any discussion, I beleive, could be brought to some conclusion provided that it is pursued rationally and logically and by remaining to the point. However, if someone jumps in just to prove others are wrong and gets prestige involved, to is main-na-manoo attitude ka koi solution nahin hota

kamranACA · 10-11-2007, 01:33 AM

Dear Shoaib,

You again accepted that ACA with my name does not give you any pain, therefore, as per your repeated statement it is not to be discussed again. I wonder why you discussed it again to alleviate the unseen deeply felt pain that you dont want to express otherwise. This is just contrary to your allegation on me that I keep circumlocating the issues. What have been done by you so far?

I still, dont comment on the word SCHUAEB. However, if some one will ask u about it, you will certainly reply that it is just to differentiate ur name on the forum. My dear brother, this ACA written in capital along with my name written in non-capital was also just to differentiate me from any other existing or upcoming Kamran here at this forum. Perhaps this kamranACA appears a better nick than Schuaeb since it bears some easily understandable meanings. And you know the words which dont carry meanings are called "MOHMAL" in urdu language. I doubt you are afraid of never getting this tag with ur name thats why you dont bear it with others name as well. I just assure you, it is not a hard task. Try for it, it will also be yours.

You again and again talk about the "main issue".

If you still remember the main issue of this thread was the discussion regarding OC cases, termination of contracts and other such unjustified threats to an innocent student like Shoaib. And in response to your those comments I requested you to quote a single OC case apparently known in ICAP's history. Not becoz there could not be such a case. Just becoz I feel there is no such case in history and it is only a self made allegation. I just needed clarity to my so-called mistaken views.

You, to the contrary, cannot so far prove ur statement and also felt shyness in accepting that this allegation was fake, have kept revolving the discussion on many sides. Although you have not so far succeeded.

I wonder why you wish to have help of others in defending ur stance. You quoted the example of my discussion with Amir but u forgot that when there was my conflict with Amir, I did not ask any one to intervene. Rather, I clarified everything at my own whereby I never used any indecent language on personal level even in response to so many indecent words.

You will also not succeed doing so, becoz whenevr any body else will intervene (which I dont expect from reasonable guys), I will agree to his point view. You will not succeed dear young chap.

Dont just ask the others to remain focussed on the main issue. Plz urself keep in mind what was the main issue of this thread and come with some concrete replies.

You at the commencement said that I dont have to mind ur words, now I think you should also not do it and remain within moral boundries which you tend to cross.

Regards,

Kamran.

Schuaeb · 10-11-2007, 01:46 AM

Refering to your original post Kamran Sb.

It appeared that you denied my point where I tried to prove some contradiction in your thoughts. You beleive that HR policies are necessary for the success of organization and getting the employees motivated. But in your opinion this view does not very much applies to CA firms as we are students not employees, and such things are primarily designed for employees and not for students. However, you also said that some real student friendly and just HR policies are there in some of the good firms. The word "some" is crucial definitely some of the things are right at some of the places. But before that we are yet to conclude that what is right or wrong. Is there any need for any leniency or not. (you have categorically denied it earlier)

Another thing is that you accused me to take just one aspect of your points (and a totally un required reference to a Quranic verse was twice repeated in your post). But I did not find some logical reasoning for your comments.

You keep on advising what CA students should be doing during the period of trainig, their main focus should be on studies bala bala. I guess even a kid knows all these things so our elders are in the habit of wasting words.

Now as you have agreed that some difference does exist between healthy discussion and debate for the sake of debate, so I will not include here some points regarding time machine and going abroad.

Hoping to hear something objective, logical and rational form you but I know I am hoping against hope

Schuaeb · 10-11-2007, 02:04 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 
You at the commencement said that I dont have to mind ur words, now I think you should also not do it and remain within moral boundries which you tend to cross.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Perhaps you are right. Yet I think I need not to applogise for anything but if you think that I do, then I won't mind. Sir, I do have respects for you and I guess you very well understand. Some times I say things with some sense of humour invloved but this humour is sometimes to serious for others to mind. I will try to remain careful.

Magar meray sawal ka jawab nahin mila abhi tak

kamranACA · 10-11-2007, 02:12 AM

Dear,

You are again beating about the bush.

I did not say HR policies are not required by CA firms. Instead, I said HR policies are numerously focussed on employees. The HR issues of students are quite a few and training regulations issued by ICAP will definitely bring some change over the period on these very few issues like late sittings, credit leaves, proper allocation/rotation.

Further I negated your idea of compulsory participation of students in the managerial affairs of the firm. I strictly dont believe in it becoz students are by no means the stakeholders of the firms in real sense. You may have different opinion.

The sort of leniency that you people expect is never desirable. Like what u commented about some friend of yours advised by u to take leave from his firm and join new firm to have a good experience so as to decide whether or not to leave his earlier firm. Students are normally at very early age specially after the introdution of moduler scheme, therefore, they normally mis-use such leniency. Yes, leniency should be expressed in the issues of their personal development and character building. They should be given exam leaves and credit for extra work they do in some job. This normally is done by all good firms, so it is not something to be explored.

In other issues, I dont agree to be lenient.

This must not hurt you as u r not my student and my personal view cannot harm you.

As far s my quotation of Quranic verse, you said u dont find logical reasoning of it. I may remind you that you oftenly dont find logical reasonings of so many things. Now dont mind for these words plz.

Again I may remind you what was the main issue of this thread.

You promised to quote some OC cases.

I will wait for it.

Regards,

Kamran.

noman · 10-11-2007, 04:32 AM

i think you guys should stop it now........its getting personal.......and the negative effects of this debate/discusion are permeating into other posts of you two on other threads......

and now i think this discussion serves no purpose on this forum.....since it has become a matter between you two.....of arguing and counter arguing.....

Schuaeb · 10-12-2007, 12:42 AM

I think Noman you are right, it has now become the matter of arguing and counter arguing and things have got personal.

Dear Kamran,

The difference in opinions are there to remain due to difference in positions. Arguments can serve to be a means for some conclusion. However, this may not be the case on this very thread, otherwise, I think we have come across some conclusion at some other places. So, why we let it affect our relationship, which I said is the last thing I would like.

OCs, termination and issuance of training completion certificate with some objecton, at least a single example of these all I have heard. And I guess that you understand that I don't need to lie. Of course, if someone writes to ICAP, some justice could be expected. But I don't know students are very reluctuant to write to ICAP.