ACCA vs CA

[Basit]

i wanted to ask that i have cleared my intermediate and i now want to choose ca.what are the basics and in islamabad which institute is the best for ca.

[Nascar]

(this wont interest u if u had not read earlier mails, I apologize for that and being too sarcastic-it just hurts more this way and hopefully the hurt will make ACCAs change for good)

Dear All,

Sorry for giving a late response I was not as free to check the forum daily as some people are (one type specially, ur guess!), but I got some free time today to so I m writing this long mail. Hopefully this keep the ACCAs busy for a month or so.

Any way I avoided being personnel (never gave a personnel comment on a person) but it seems that I have hurt feelings to such an extent that ACCA’s are getting personnel. I will still try to respond within the ACCA and CA spheres. I thoroughly enjoyed every body’s comments, specially the superiority complex thing, perhaps it’s the treatment CAs usually get unlike most ACCAs.

I would have loved to see the identification of self contradictory paragraphs I had written earlier. Perhaps they were hard to pinpoint for an ACCA. I will try to respond to the various issues raised earlier.

Just to settle the comparison issue
even accountancy bodies compare their qualifications/course contents etc to grant exemptions, equivalency. I hope ACCAs would not disagree from this fact as their survival was and is dependent on the exemptions granted based on comparisons. if they don’t change future survival will also be based on exemptions given in charity.

I would love to understand the difference between prof qualification and Uni degrees in an ACCA’s language at the level of their intellect. May be there is a thing like a professional degree??or may be not???

Usually professional institutions don’t differ between their members and each is considered equal. Isn’t it the same in ACCA or r there ACCA with XX% marks and YY% marks. So wats the use of marks at this level. Anyway ultimately one proves him/her self in the market and it the survival for the fittest in the market and weeping doesn’t help.

i would not like to talk about UK scenario but in PAK scenario the difference between ACCA trainees and CA trainees is the lower level of commitment and the complex of equality with CA students.

ACCA and ICAP examination systems both now allow paper by paper pass we will c whether CA becomes easier to pass than ACCA now. We all know the answer in our hearts!!!

Sorry for confusing CFA as being comparable to accounting qualifications I thought it was a professional qualification relating to the field of financial analysis. I cant remember exactly because of my intellectual level but perhaps financial management is not taught to accountants. I am a CFA enrolled student and have appeared in level I exam once and have failed but still respect the qualification to a great extent unlike wat ACCAs feel after failing to pass CA exams.

I am waiting for the time when the millions of successful ACCAs now working in UK (preparing individual tax returns, accounts for corner shops, beauty saloons and similar big organizations) will return to Pakistan and prove themselves here. All the CAs will Sure like 2 face and compete them. May be at some time in near future we may be needing lots of shop accountants for documentation of the economy.

If ACCAs want to get into a big org they just have to ask half the price a CA would ask that how ACCAs can enter AND then compete with CAs and prove themselves. ACCAs - U CAN USE THIS AS A STRATEGIC PLAN

CAs dont normally go for any other prof qualification which once again proves that they can easily survive with one qualification plus they can only find few better qualifications than CA unlike ACCAs. As for professional development CAs have a CPE program do ACCA have anything similar.

I like the salary survey link it was most interesting, must be reassuring for ACCAs and will promote them to come back to Pakistan and prove their metal in PAK as well. I never question ACCA capabilities may be the market does in PK. ACCAs need to do something to change this. Actions not words.

Please correct me I thought ACCAs require a 3yr interenship thing to become a member and CAs have to do 4 yrs article ship, may be 1 extra year of training make CAs worse and less competent than ACCAs. The starting stipend level of ACCA trainees most certainly is better for ACCAs even in Pakistan atleast in the big four I don’t know why this trend is not continued after wards!!!!!!!!!!!1

In the market, salary and position held is the only true reflection of a professional’s abilities. I cant understand why being old ICAEW is the more prestigious body in UK, may just be that it has got something to do with their quality and the positions held by ICAEWs. ACCAs try gaining market prestige and maintaining it.

Being an ACCA and wanting to become like a CA is sure a dream, 80% + of ACCA students are dreaming this at least in Pakistan, just convince them not to and the ACCAs sitting abroad will get their answer to which qualification is better (considered better ) in pakistan.

The US experience of ACCAs being better than CAs will assure ACCAs of their position in US. I tend to agree that generalization for CA, ACCA or any other qualification is bad as usually individual’s impressions are based on personnel experiences but everyone is free to have his own perception. My opinion is based on personal experiences so cant change them easily.

Thanks a lot to all members participating, this is a fun thing for me, If any one wants to get more personal on this issue I will be pleased to provide my contact details.


NASCAR
KPMG
Islamabad

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Dear all (specially Nascar)

now u r talking, u have made me clueless, i dont know what else i can say to prove my points....u have made my job even more easier after writing superb pieces of self-contradictory paragraphs which depicts nothing but pure SUPERIORITY COMPLEX. plz dont take it personal, most CAs have it....so nothing to worry about.

let me start again with my very first point that one CANNOT compare prof qulifications. after refering to ur response i would conclude that U dont even recognise the diff b/w a prof qualification and Uni degrees (MBAs), let me quote urself for a second

"EVERY BODY compares professional qualifications even same qualifications from different institutions"

above is not possible in any prof CHARTERED accountancy body.

it is not the qualification but its output (qualified members) that can be compared, there is a BIG diff b/w the two. Two qualified CAs can have diff levels of intellect (if they have any - just kidding).

i would recommend u not to talk about UK scenerio(i m working in a firm of accountants and two qualified CAs and one finalist work under me) i can assure u thats not the case in UK, infact to some extent employers prefer to have ACCA trainees than CA trainees mainly because ACCA trainees can spend more time in office during their courses (well thats not very relevant with our discussion - we can talk about it somewhere else).

passing rate CAN be a judge of examination difficulty ONLY when the examination systems are same, there is NO comparison between ACCA and ICAP examination systems when one system allows paper by paper pass and the other on part basis. thats the reason ACCA is comparabily easy to pass.

i have never comeacross a single valid rational reason for not PUBLISHING the exact marks. if u (being mature) have discovered the justification of it then plz let me know as well.

once again u are behaving like a child, my friend our discussion is about ACCA vs CA, which are similar in context, u cant just bring in CFA for the sake of justifying ur point, CFA is completely diff (a news to u ....isn't it?) and whatever their examination bodies do are irrelevant in our discussion.

regarding ur second paprgraph about Finance Ministers, i have nothing to say except that it clearly dipicts ur complex. i have no complains, i m sitting in the market and competing very well with all other professionally qualified accountants, and i will do the same when i will comeback to pakiland (make sure u dont face me), i m sure there would be many ACCAs who can prove their presence in any company if they are allowed to get into the company by terrified CA employers who are worried about their own positions and dont have the courage to compete with ACCAs on equal grounds, perhaps that is one of the main reasons they dont wanna let ACCAs in the company. i m not complaining....am I? isn't it true? if u think u r better then why dont u take ACCAs inn and compete with them.

now ur so called comparison b/w ACCA - CMA & CA. i know many CMAs who are doing ACCA and CA to add finance/audit and tax areas under their belts. its true that CAs dont normally go for anyother prof qualification which once again prove their self-believed arrogance that they dont need to learn anything else. i feel sad for such people who deliberately put a FULL STOP on their development side.

the salary issue as per the latest survey conducted by HAYS Personel Agency in UK

- CMAs are the highest earners (mainly because they work in industry)
since we are discussing ACCA vs CA i will stick to the salary comparisons b/w the two.

yes CAs are paid HIGHER, want to know WHY? only and only because when they qualify they have got 4 years articles exp to speak for higher package, unfortunately fresh ACCAs dont have this luxury. if u talk about the Trainee Stipends/Salaries, let me surprise u again, most often ACCA trainees are paid higher mainly because of their availibilty in the office.

i dont want to comment upon pak salary comparisons since they are biased and are not a true reflection of ACCA grads abilities.
in UK there is no such prejudice.

to make u please YES ICAEW is more prestigious mainly because it is an old establihed body.

if thats the way all CAs think, then i, being an ACCA would never want to become like a CA. secondlly this is what u think that ACCAs dream of CAs, u r so funny .........i can only laugh on that, see who is talking about self esteem, this can be voted as the joke of the century.

i think the above is enough for u to digest today.

let me apologise if u took anything personally, remember we all belong to the same family of accountants and we should respect eachother. ur experiences could be right but it all depends upon the people u sit with, ur ACCA colleagues/fellow students/friends could have made u think like that but it doesn't mean that all fingers are equal though belong to the same hand. (now dont quote these lines for comparing qualifications - i m talking about INDIVIDUALS)

i thank you for appreciating my words of wisdom

"talking high can never make u superior unless u prove it"

perhaps u must also try to understand it.

Kind Regards

Azeem Shah Khan
Audit and Assurance
Hardy & Company
Chartered Accountants


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>

[Goodman]

option 1- stop this nonsense and share information to learn from each others experiences.

option 2- get ready for fireworks.

lol

[Pracs]

Well, it is rather interesting to read what both sides have to say, it may sound like crap but I guess we must respect each other’s point of view and in order to respect that one must have the strength of tolerance.

Lets bring about a moderate stand here, I guess I am qualified to do that since I am both an ACA and an ACCA. Yeah I am one of those fellows who got through on the easy turf, some of my colleagues referred to my qualifying as a CA via Bhatinda. Suffice to say I have sat the maximum number of papers to pass my CA (since it includes the ACCA stuff too.)

Degrees or Qualifications have a basic ‘cap’ say if you are a B.com you can definitely be an accounts clerk, that is a Universal truth but if you have the brains and the opportunities you may end up as a financial controller. Similarly just because you are a CA does not make you or your kind for that matter superior to an ACCA or an ACMA etc. The ground realities at this point of time in Pakistan are that the finance professional hierarchy is something like this CA, ACCA, ACMA. There are socio economic reasons behind it and has nothing to do with which qualification is smarter! Since ICAP has been around for more than any one else, has the legal backing (the only professionals to be able to practice) and have the logistics (most finance big wigs in Pakistan are members of ICAP), it may have to do with the quantity factor too there are only 3,337 approx. CA’s (ICAP) out of these around 584 are overseas, you do the math. Lets compare it with India where ICAI has over 100,000 CA’s of these around 2,000-3,000 alone work in the UAE. Ok the Indians are 8 times our number, lets do some more math we should still have 12,500 CAs, you’d say they are more economically advanced than us, OK even if I reduce this figure by 25% we still need 9,000 CAs. If ICAP doesn’t produce them ACCA will, give ACCA another decade, let WTO role in and I am pretty sure that the powers to be will allow ACCAs to practice ! ACCA’s already got the Pakistani variants right.

I have worked with ACCAs, CPAs (Americans), CAs from India, UK, South Africa, Canada and ofcourse Pakistani CA’s. I know ICAEW CAs who cannot consolidate, cannot prepare a mildly complicated cash flows, Indian CAs who need major writing skills, American CPA’s who need to be trained and thought accounting all together. Then of course you meet and work with people and they amaze you. What is important is how you were TRAINED and WHERE you were trained, how did you actually pass the exam? did you actually develop any skills and do you know how to apply knowledge a combination of all this makes you what you are !

Of course brands are very important, I was hired by a Big 4 in the Gulf based on my ACCA (my CA result was still in the offing and my employer was least concerned. All they cared was that I was Big 4 trained and an ACCA).

I’d say CA may be tough to pass, but ACCA has a more comprehensive syllabus. Then again its important who you want to be. The day you say I know every thing, you know nothing.

Regards

[Azeem Shah Khan]

Dear all

i agree with Goodman's Option 1 although i m not afraid of opting for 2 but there is no point wasting time on this endless argument.

prac's analysis is more or less my experience too.

i cant deny NASCAR'S facts, he shared his experiences and i shared MINE. he discussed paki scene and i explained UK environment. i m sure being in UK Goodman will acknowledge the equality of ACCA with any other prof qualification.

My point on Prof Qual Vs Uni Degree was completely MIS-UNDERSTOOD by my friend.

all i wanted, all of u SPECIALLY nascar to know that qualification itself is meaningless unless the person holding it can prove it in the market. i have seen many dumb and genius CAs ACCAs CMAs and what have you.

to label someone a GOOF on a basis that he doesn't hold the so called ULTIMATE qualification is a stupidity.

being an ACCA, any DEGRADING WORDS(like "compounder") will ALWAYS be treated personal, as these FOUR letters come after my name.

i had already apologised for my earlier RETALIATIONS, i never meant to be personal, i have nothing against anyone.

on salary issue, i will try to email some links and if possible will quote the whole article on a similar debate, in one line it points out the fact that a long SUPERMACY of CA's is on the verge of death, in all parts of England and specially London salary ranges have declined by 3.5 - 5% for CAs where as ACCA grads are enjoying 4-7% increase pa. a most recent survey concluded that CA finalists(in their last year of training contract) are getting a max of £34k pa where as ACCA finalists (with 1-2 years exp) are getting as much as £36k pa. All i can say is that NUMBERS speak for itself.

My friend has confused EXMAINATION system with the EXEMPTION system, when i was discussing the reasons why ACCA is comparibly easier to do. i am still awaiting a LOGICAL reason behing NOT publishing exam scores.

CFA was excluded from my discussion as it doesnt encompasses Core Audit and Tax from practice point of view.

let me know if i missed to answer any point.

on a friendly note, i wish NASCAR all the best to clear his CFA.
i will be obliged to have ur CONTACT number.....for good reasons only and i m sure upon our meeting u will feel the diff b/w ME and the ACCA's u sit with.

i think enough has been said on this issue.

i willbe obliged to see ur view on ICAEW - CIMA - CIPFA proposed Merger. Reasons behind such proposal? who will benefit/suffer most? its implications on students/qualified accountants? are some starters for u.

Best Regards

Azeem Shah Khan

[Goodman]

Good to see the factual analysis from pracs and Azeem. The analysis is adequate and nothing needs adding. I think the forum is to share info. so please let it be like that.

Azeem, u used the word “PAKI” in your reply, well….. you know it is not usual to use this term, I think you know what I am trying to say. London salary report has come to my reading as well. I think there is another reason as well- firms are now actively targeting ACCA members for future partnerships and as such affiliates with a couple of years practice public practice experience are demanding more salaries.

[Azeem Shah Khan]

Hi Goodman

i didn't mean "PAKI" in british sense. i use this term as a short for PAKISTANIS. apologies for that! being a "paki" myself i can never use it that way

i m glad that there are people who speak with facts, and dont live in a fantasy world.

i have heard similar ACCA prospects but yet to find any recuitment advert.

will appreciate ur comments on proposed merger.

Kind Regards

Azeem Shah Khan

[Goodman]

hi Azeem

if you dont mind i would like to draw your attention to the rules of prof. conduct. Personally, I am indifferent with PAki use, but ACCA rules doesnot allow use of this term by members and it might pose a potential problem for u and honestly I dont want to see a succesfull person like you falling in to any unnecessary problem.

Re adverts. Partnerships are not advertised (my experience only) for a variety of reasons, you might find the odd adverts where firms are desperate. Firms usually advertise for manager position and in the interview meeting they tell you that it could lead to partnership. so your interview meeting skills are vital. Assess, if the manager position will lead to partnership. Please consult Mondays Evening Standard Just for jobs section- It will be help

Merger I dont think it will go through on this occassion only. All of my ICAEW friends are against it, they view icma totally incompatible with stat. auditors. I would love to tell you a joke but it will spark controversy here.

please check you acca mail box.

[Azeem Shah Khan]

Dear Goodman

thanx for letting me know the ACCA Prof Conduct re the term we mentioned. i didn't know this. although i dont see any prob using such term for myself but it is better to play safe, thanks.

its true that partner level positions are not usually advertised, (though i have seen some), i took it the way u mentioned such prospects and thought u caught it from adverts.

i m quite happy with my current job, its all about updating myself with the current market scene. i will plan to seriously look for a new job early next summer. might go for CHARTERED TAX ADVISOR / INSOLVENCY PRACTIONER, i thikn i will gain enough core audit/tax and general practice experience by then.......really want to get into some specialist area.......i believe thats where the MONEY and FUN is.

yes couple of my ACMA and ACA colleagues are not happy with the proposed merger, guess CIPFA is the one whos gonna get the most of it.

please email that joke to me again at [email protected], or we can take permission from our fellow mates to post it on this forum.

thanks for your prompt reply.......

by the way where do u work?

Regards

Azeem

[Azeem Shah Khan]

hellooooooooooooooooooo

are we ever going to see Mr NASCAR's comments or is he STILL busy.

azeem

[Pracs]

I guess NASCAR is still busy (he is not as free as u know who !) then again I think there is nothing else he can go on, for biased rhetoric can only go do far....

[Azeem Shah Khan]

hi pracs

i guess u r right, the thing is i just started to enjoy HIM a bit.......he won't be a happy man to know this.

any idea about GUYBRUSH, i want him to comment on this forum again......cant find him anywhere.

cheers

azeem

[Pracs]

No idea buddy,.. he's not responded (Guy brush) in other forums too.. looks like its busy time in Pakistan (as a matter of fact it is june end ... oh man that was some season.) I am not sure if he works for an accounting firm though..

[Nascar]

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
hi pracs
Dear Pracs(wat ever it is) "azeem" tareen ACCA and other supperior ACCAs

dont wait for answers, life will teach u very soon, wat an ACCA's worth.

best wishes and sweet dreamz.

NASCAR


i guess u r right, the thing is i just started to enjoy HIM a bit.......he won't be a happy man to know this.

any idea about GUYBRUSH, i want him to comment on this forum again......cant find him anywhere.

cheers

azeem


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>

[Nascar]

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
hi pracs
Dear Pracs(wat ever it is) "azeem" tareen ACCA and other supperior ACCAs

dont wait for answers, life will teach u very soon, wat an ACCA's worth.

best wishes and sweet dreamz.

NASCAR


i guess u r right, the thing is i just started to enjoy HIM a bit.......he won't be a happy man to know this.

any idea about GUYBRUSH, i want him to comment on this forum again......cant find him anywhere.

cheers

azeem


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>