AUNTI MAULANA ABDUL-AZEEZ - INCIDENT OF SHAME

[Schuaeb]

Wow!! Thats what I could say after reading these posts.

Just what I can assess at the end of this drama is we people are predisposed to results and only find means to justity the conclusions we have drawn in our mind.

The general psyche is that defend the Ghazi brothers and blame the government. We don't have got the ability to understand that while evaluating the results of this particular event we can't at the same time blame the government and agencies for this predetermined drama and called the maulvis shaheeds. Do try to understand what I wanted to say.

If it was a drama planned by the government and agencies, then ghazi brothers are the ones who should be blammed first. In this case they are government spys in guise of maulanas. If it is the case they should be cursed for earning the bad name to ulamas, Pakistan and whole Muslim Nation. I don't know how one who says that it was a planned drama could support the ghazi brothers. Muslims have to look at things with a broader mind, anything that attaches Islam to it may not always be right.

If someone says it is a genuine incident and then he supports the gahzis then atleast he is to a little extent justfied. At least he is not a confused mind messing up contradicting things. However, majority of evidence are in the favour of proving that it was a pre planned event.

Another important thing to look at is the students who were declared mujahids in the begining were later on used as hostages to save his own life. What could be more SHARAMNAK then this. Didn't you people see their parents weaping outside for seven days. If someone deliberately wants to keep his eyes close may Allah help him.

A person or a group who has challenged the writ of the state should never be given a safe passage. Similar examples are there from history. By giving them a safe way out the govt. is getting blackmailed by them and is paving path for more such incidents.

This is not what JIHAD is...........please try to understand.

[Schuaeb]

And Amir don't leave the forum you are required here as much as anyother member.

Agreed that there might be somethings which may defeat your set of beliefs and would be much irritating for you. But one has to face people of differing opinions, and this could give place to some open mindedness.

Always here to someone who has a totally different opinion.

[Imran]

offcourse this is not the exact Jihad. But also we should not use such harsh words for these people.

[kamranACA]

Dears,

As coollioness said, Ghazi Rasheed's face always showed him a soft person. I agree that government and its agencies should have controlled the harvesting of such a big incident in capital city. It's totally a failure of these all agencies. It's either their failure or every thing has been cultivated as per their own desires. The guys who were created for own benefits of agencies after all have been sacrificed. I dont at all (as far as my own views are concerned) deem them to be AALIMS. This all may or may not be a drama but of course the poor have been sacrificed.

Rasheed Ghazi should have agreed to the governmental offers of house arrest to save his life and lives of other hundreds among whom there might be a number of innocents who have ultimately died due to wrong decisions.

I think government should have waited for some more time (when already time of seven days was given) and operation should have been delayed to wait for all possibilities.

I really feel greatest sorrow for all deaths of innocents.

However, the government was pushed to the corner by LAL MASJID people by their acts and they cannot be totally relieved from the responsibility of what has happened at Islamabad.

Safe passage must have not been given and for that I appreciate the government. If it has ever been given, it was not a correct decision. There is no question for any safe passage. I have great respect for the big names of Ulemas but of course they are not in government and they cannot feel how it could be felt if writ of government is crushed under the feet of few Maulvies so badly. This incident has further ruined the face of Pakistan in internatioanl arena.

At the end I pray for the betterment of Pakistan and muslim Ummah. I also pray for the easier aakhirat and forgivness of God for all those who lost their lives in this incident.

Regards,

Kamran.

[sajid naveed khan]

kamran sahib main aap say aur un sab logon say chand swalat karna chahon ga jo Lal Masjid Adn.aur un k students k baray main inthai dehtai k sath tauheen ameez wording use kar rahay hain.aur mujay 100% yaqeen hay kay inn sub kay jawab aap k pass nahin or no k ilawa kuch nahi ho gay.
1. kia aap kabhi lal masjid k gate tuk b gaye hain?
2. Kia aap Maulana Abdul Rasheed shaheed aur MAulana Abdul Aziz Say Milay hain?
3.Kia aap nay un logon ka maukaf suna hay jinhon nay apnay students ki aur apni janain aur apnay waldain (Father and Mother Of maulana Bros.)bachon beta Hasan, Bhanja Inam -ul-Haq and others iss noble cause means Islam ki sar bulandi k liay janain dee?
4.kia aap uss maan ka dukh jaan saktay hain jis ki teen batian iss wakia main Allah ko Pyari ho gain (She is a resident of G-6 i personaly met her)?
5.agar aap inn baton say bhi nawakif hain kah yah kin ki sazish hay aur iss main kis ko dili khusi naseeb hui to phir aap un logon k baray main iss tarah ki harsh wording kaisay use kar saktay hain?
6.Kia aap nay Maulana Sahib k dil main Jhank kar Daikha tha kah wo LAL Masjid say q Niklna chahtay thay jo aap log un k liay itnay tauheeen ameez word KHUDA k khof ko balay-e-taq rakh kar use kar rahay hain?
aap jo baat bhi tasdeeq kay baghair karain aap bilkul ghalt karaun gay?aur aap jo bhi un par ilzam tasdeeq k bghair lagain gay aap un par buhtan lagain gay aur buhtan ki saza ka shayed aap logo ko abhi sahi tarah say andaza nahi hay.

[kamranACA]

Dear,

I know laughing on such questions is immoral otherwise these questions require only a smiling face in response. However, I appreciate your concern for the cause of Islam and the pain you are feeling on innocents' death.

Mr. Khan, this is a very long story if we go in details and, in my view, requires face to face discussions of so many sessions. I have so many answers to your questions and so many counter questions. This forum is a very short place to debate on the things you have highlighted. This by no means should be construed as to lack of answers in response to your childlike (I dont say childish) queries. Forum means for expressing one's views, whether or not these are acceptable for others. One cannot just stop the flow of ideas in and out of other's mind. You cannot put a cap on the thoughts against such rigids. Just like that I cannot stop you from taking their side. I again say that it is a very long story.

There was an era when these sort of Ulemas gave a FATWAH that whoever would agree that human has gone to moon will lose his NIKAH. I swear on my life that I have seen and met those people who were used to give much importance to this FATWAH. To such a rigid (who was Afridi of northern area), I once questioned that why you dont agree that human can go to moon. He said moon is very distanced and it is not possible for a human to reach it and that it is not acceptable to wisdom as well. I asked him a counter question, "Can you accept that water runs through a pipe"? He said yes. I asked why? He replied because there is a space for water to pass through. I then asked him can ur wisdom accepts that something can run from a hard iron wire just as water runs through the pipe? He said NO. Then I asked can u accept that some unseen power runs through the conductor of electricity in the style of water and can do so much with its power and can even kill you? I further said, if you cannot belive then just catch a conductor or wire and give your comments? He was seeing me suspeciously and declared that he should not contniue discussion with A BHATKA HUA PERSON like me. Your queries are just like the response of that AFRIDI following the similar Aalims.

As so many of us say that we have seen nothing then we should not believe on it and we should not comment on it. Mr. Khan you should know that we believe on so much which we have never met, never seen, never talked and never apprehend. If everything should be based upon personal meetings and visualization then why you are beliving in ALLAH, in Islam, in Prophet Muhammad PBUH, why u r believing that Holy Quran is God's book? Why you believe on Jins and Malaika? Why? ALHAMDOLILLAH I beleive on this all becoz I know for having a belief physical meeting, face to face discussion, visualization and bala bala is not a basic requirement. Can you deny this reality? Can you believe that on judgement day there would be sitting the Bhagwan Shiv OR Kali Mata instead of ALLAH TA'ALA SUBHANAHOO (Naoozbillah)? Can you think so while u have never met any one of them and never seen anyone of them? These are very crual questions and a very big heart is required to understand the situation. I am not messing up the things. Only you are laying down two different standards for similar things.

God has given the human a mind and perception and at so many places in Holy Quran God says that a MOMAN should concentrate on the things to understand them. There is no cap on concentrating the issues.

There had been no dethaai in any discussion against these so called Aalims. These are common men like us and are not the prophets Naoozbillah. You must understand it.

I dont appreciate their killings by government. I never did so. I am also not against the cause of Islam Naoozbillah. But I am totally against the way they adopted for the cause of Islam. I once earlier clarified that in this world punishments are based upon deeds/acts and not on intents. You may not grasp this concept but it is real. I said it may be crual but it is real.

Which Islamic education says that do not accept ur arrest, if u r accused, specially in a muslim country? Which Islamic education says that attack on rangers and fire out government properties? We have seen it on media and for God sake understand that every one does not lie. Which islamic education allows you to create state within state and announce the threat of suicidal attcks? Which islamic concept allows to retaliate the muslim army to this shameful extent.

By the way Mr. Khan they choosed their death by their hands. My heart also cries for the end but its resposnibility falls not only on the government but also on your SHAHEEDS who did not care for teh lives which are the AMAANAT of ALLAH and accepted such deaths.

Which objective their death would achieve? I think their lives would have caused so much to change positively, had they been trying it with positive minds. Pakistani Courts are not so bad and I firmly hope that Mr. Abdul Azeez would be relieved. I regret on the death of Rasheed Ghazi, he should have not opted it. No one was going to kill him as no one killed his brother. We should not deny the realities.

I dont deny form the casualities occured during this operation and I always condemned these killings. I never appreciated government's act. I only repeated that the way out of lal masjid people was not correct and on this earth punishments are sugessted for acts and not for intentions.

I have some guests here and may have another post to clarify the matter further.

Best regards,

Kamran.

[sajid naveed khan]

Main nay na to nikah tootnay ki baat kabhi lal masjid kay imam say suni aur na hi un logon nay suicide attacks ki baat ki lakin jub un par kisi dushman mulik ki tarah apnon nay hi charhai kar di to un logon nay fight trick k toor par use kia tha uss main unhon nay yah kaha tha "Agar hum par attack hua to bhar poor mzahmat karain gay"
iss say sakhat bayan main nay to nahi suna agar apkay pass iss ka record ho to mujay emailzaroor kar dejiaye ga bcz mera iss forum main aaj akhri din hay
moreover main yah nahi kahta kay iss tarzey amal say kisi nay b lashoon k siwa kuch mila lakin main yah b janta hoon kay iss Govt. nay apnay 7,8 salon main lashoon k siwa dia he kia hay.
main yah yakeen rakhta hoon kah un ki demand bilkul theek thee iss bat par mera yaqeen issi tarah attal hay jistarah Khuda ki mojodgi par lakin un ka tarika kar jo unhon nay iss k hasool k liaya apnaya "THORA" ghalt tha
main janta hoon kah aap meri baaton ko phir say serious nahi lain gay
lakin meri Dua hay k Allah Apko Sidha rasta dikhaye aur apko apni ghaltion ka jald ahsas ho jay AMEEN
Aur agar wkt milay to meray jaisay bhatkay huaon k liye dua kar dena
ALLAH HAFIZ

[Imran]

Mr Sajid

First of all its my humble request to all my brothers not to write any thing in under this topic as the title it got is shamefull for any muslim. Secondly my brother no need to leave the forum due to this reason. I have discussed the issued with Mr Kamran almost more than 10 times but remains unsuccessfull to change his thoughts but the matter is every one has his own opinion and no one is willing to change his opinion either wrong or right (wrong in this case). Basically Mr Kamran is of thought that these people are terrorist. In simple word he has adopted the policy of Rushan khayal Muslim. You know some realities are very tough to accept but these are infact realities. Lal masjid issue is one amongst them. Only those can feel this pain who have a heart

[kamranACA]

Dear Mr. Khan,

I recommend you to always stay at this forum. It is not a way out to leave the discussion. You are very much respectable for me. It is another matter that I dont agree to your view point.

When Bush Senior attacked on Iraq, Saddam became a hero of all muslims. These people always use the sentiments of others for their purposes. You know a lot of Pakistanies named their kids as Saddam Hussain. But time proved that what he was.

I dont have to cause distress for you or any other respected member of this forum. I only have variant view point which, if not agreed by you, should not be given importance by you.

Mr. Imran, you dont have to change my ideas similarly as I dont have any interest to change ur ideas. This is a discussion forum and is meant for the discussion of members of every belief and sect. Dont press any one personally to change his ideas. However, you must elaborate what you feel correct. You are always welcome. You rightly said in your message that

" You know some realities are very tough to accept but these are infact realities."

I agree with this isolated statement.

At the end, I again mention that I would love to see posts from Mr. Khan as he is a very nice contributor.

Best regards,

Kamran.

[Cool Lioness]

Mr. Kamran is right that actions are punished and not the intentions. And in Lal masjid case since both parties were wrong in their ways to achieve their objective, so both were supposed to be punished. Govt is in power, so as it say Might is right, she took a wrong decision using her powers. I will say the our Govt and specially Mr. Musharaf is the murderer. I cannot believe that he is doing all this in nation's interest. His decisions, specially in regard of eliminating terrorism, are contiminited with foreign dirty intentions for Muslim and Islam as a whole.

Mr. Kamran in one of your post some where you said that why all army actions in nothern areas? I will tell you that pathans are known as much more religious if compared to others. Donot take my comment on defensive side. But its a truth known to all Pakistan. Where ever we see a pathan family, we know that they will be much careful about their ladies Pardas, namaaz, roza etc. If you look at their over all out look, for instance a pathan man, he will be always seen in qameez shalwar, with his shalwar up from his ankles, mostly a topi on his head (turbine in rural areas) and beard on his face. All of these things can be seen togetherly in a muslim only. Americans and others take them as hardcore muslims. Muslims who are rigid in their belives. Although it is absoloutely wrong concept and wrong way to judge. They have made Osama as role model for them. Who so ever looks to them like Osama, they are killing them. Pakistan has a full province known as NWFP full of such people whose appearence is like Osama. Do your mind accept that these people in NWFP, or nothern areas, whom we never know that how they have been living, what they do, how they are getting education, can be only TERRORISTS? Yes they are much behind from the people of other two provinces, Punjab and Sindh, but its not their fault. Its all Govt who never bothered to give attention to these areas. Either its nothern areas ar Sarhad province, majority of public is illiterate there. All big hospitals, universities, colleges, shoping centers, computer institutes, employment oppertunities, everything is centeralized in few cities of Punjab and Sindh.

It seems so unfair from the govt side that she never bothered to look into their needs, and when it comes to kill people then she has sent army there to kill them so bruetly. Asking for America's help. Mr Bush is a notorious personality in his own country. He is called as the worst person of the century. His regime is known as Blood Regime in US history. I would never even like to talk to such guy, accepting his order tou door kee baat hai.

A small incident i will like to share here. I had a colleague fron Canada. She was a divorced lady. She was much fond of photography. One day when she came to the office she told me that yesterday she got some photographs of a Pathan driver. She added that she did not imagine them to be so innocent people. The pathan guy stopped her taking photos when he listened the Azaan. She said that it was a lovely experience of talking to him and taking his pictures.

Regards

[Imran]

Very well answered. Cool Lioness you should better add that operations is against those who can raise their voice against the cruel and wrong. Pathans are those. If you go through the history these people are those who never accept their defeat and fight till death. Basically through this operation Gen Musharaf not only is attaining favour from Yahod o Nisara but also making his position strong. In the battle there is a rule demolish all those who can harm you. that is what he is doing. after doing so he can very easily achieve his objectives which are right now to rule. Mania to rule is something which erases all things from one mind. He is then unable to distinguish between right and wrong. As mentioned by you the role of Bush, Musharaf is playing same role in Pakistan.

[Muhammad Amir]

Very Nice To see your posts Mr IMRAN and Ms COOL-LIONESS..Actually dear this PATHAN QUOM is very very religious and this could only possible because of SHUHADA-E-BALAKOAT tyhe two kings of JEHAD-E-BALAKOAT AGAINST FARANGIES Syed Ahmed SHAHEED and SHAH ISMAIL SHAHEED(REHIMATULLAH) and this QUOM had never been DEFEATED BY anyone just because of their E'MANI JAZBA and THIS QUOM is Basically Militant and one can't prove them as terrorists because ASLAHA RAKHNA SUNNAT-E-NABWI(SALLAHU-ALLIHI-WASSLAM) hay and you people might have awared to the fact that at the time of "WISAL" of our PROPHER HAZRAT MUHAMMAD(SALLAHU-ALLIHE-WASLLAM) there were 9 TALWARS in HUJRA of HAZRAT(AISHA SIDDIQA<RAZI-ALLAH TA'ALA ANHA>)....so just because of their militancy eqipments one can't labeled them as terrorists...

One thing more here I lot of time seen that Mr KAMRAN has very harsh views against TALIBANS Of MADERSA......

He don't know about Taliban and he is saying whatever he has been taught by ROSHAN KHYAL MEDIA...

I myself is strong supporter of TALIBANS and MUJAHEDDEN-E-KIRAM just because of whatever they are doing is in favour of whole Muslim Nations.....

This Taliban Tehreek was started with only 45 Mujahedeen-E-Kiram who were leaded my HAZRAT MULLAH OMER MUJAHID SAHIB(HIFZULLAH<May Allah Bless Him>)....and after the inception of this Tehreek whole AFGHAN Nation were with them...

So I Welcome Americans,PAkistani,SHUMALI ETIHAD and AFGHAN to come in Pakistan and see what their "HASHAR WILL BE"....

<b>PERVEZ MUZALLAL Is DUSHMAN-E-ISLAM and he has full support of QADIYANIES and his "MUTAMID-E-KHAS" "TARIQ AZIZ QADIYANI" is very busy in dealing with BENAZIR(She really is benazir because i haven't seen huge DONKEY like face of her in my whole Life)</b>....

Anyways this LAL MASJID OPERATION was in full support of QADIANAIES and these DUSHMAN-E-ISLAM and PAKSITAN are very happy after the SHAHADAT of 1500 (TALIBANS and TALIBATS)....

As far as Mr Kamran is concerned due to his ironic expressions regarding ULEMA-E-KIRAM No one even want to talk to him he always try to propagate "GHAMDIE VERSION" of Islam and i have no respect of him at all as far as Religious matter is concerned..however being my senior professional i have at the same time respect of him...

May Allah Subhan-Wa-Ta'ala give us courage to preach truth and may Allah help us to cope with Roshan Khayals..A'men Ya Rabal Alameen

Regrads,
A TALIB(of Knowledge)

[Imran]

First of all "A HUJE WELLCOME BACK TO MR AAMIR". Thanks for being here and for your contributions. Please keep on contributing towards the truth as now a days people even dont have ability to face realities.
As per as Talibans are concerned i have very surprised that why these people dont look over the history. It is the same yahood o nisara who used these Talibans to achieve their mission against Soviet Union and now they call them as Terrorist. My simple Q to mr Kamran is why it is so?
And as in our Islam yahood o nisara can never be the friends of Muslims then why Gen Musharaf (Correctly called Muzallal) closes his eyes in front of them?

[kamranACA]

Dears,

I appreciate every one's concerns for Islam and for the cause of Islam. It reqires very long answer to the above posts. However, I will not touch every area which I have in my mind. Further, it is the difference of idealogy and is not a personal concern of mine. I always try my best to keep my ownself out of the affects of any discussion regarding religion becoz it can lead to lack of impartiality.

Mr. Amir is welcome back and I dont have any regret for his inability to respect me or anybody else. This is one's interior which comes out when one becomes personal with others. I might have been personally doing so at some point of time as I am also a sinful human. However, Islam does not allow it and at least it must be avoided by the big exclaimers of being the true muslims.

One thing must be kept in mind by us. We should not leave the common respect within a community; otherwise stone is normally not replied by the flowers. It is very natural. I dont appreciate any one to use wrong words for Musharraf or Benazir or any one else. We can call them terrorist or roshan khayal or slaves of yahood or killers or crual etc etc but straight-a-way calling some one MUZALLAL or DONKEY is totally personalised and no where appreciated by Islam as well as civilized society. Moreover, one must not call any one as qadiyani or kafir just becoz his viewpoint is not in agreement with such persons. I dont think that Mr. Tariq Azeez is a qadiyani or Benazir is qadiyani (as her father was the person who declared qadiyanies as non-muslim), if Tariq Azeez would not be a qadiyani then it would appear to be ridiculous to call him as such. One can call him Musharraf's chaila, or government's broker or even roshan khayal or terrorist or killer or anything else but not the Kafir. It is a big allegation. If I have to be responsible and answerable to God for my statements and belief why the others do not feel that they are also responsible for their belief and statements whilst they also have claim of being very much in support of correct islam. Have they taken a certification of getting into Jannah ultimately.

Where I used the word AUNTI for Mr. Abdul Azeez, this was not a word created by me. Actually this word (as per media) was used by the female students of Jamia when Mr. Abdul Azeez was arrested. Reportedly, students said, "this is our aunti and is ill, so please let her go."

Miss Coollioness,

I agree with ur statement that

"In Lal masjid case since both parties were wrong in their ways to achieve their objective, so both were supposed to be punished. Govt is in power, so as it say Might is right, she took a wrong decision using her powers. I will say the our Govt and specially Mr. Musharaf is the murderer. I cannot believe that he is doing all this in nation's interest. His decisions, specially in regard of eliminating terrorism, are contiminited with foreign dirty intentions for Muslim and Islam as a whole."

Our all leaders have been following the instructions of USA or other powers. The big names of leaders saving the cause of Islam were also working on their instructions. Jehad-e-Afghan was basically supported by Pakistan on USA's orders being the biggest opponent of the then USSR. We sent our army in iraq on USA instructions. Our government was even thinking on to have relationships with Israel. This has ever been happening since the decades. The personal character of our leaders remained always questionable. These things have been existing since the very outset of Pakistan's independence.

I agree to all these things and for these I never supported army or politicians. I know this army (means its leaders) are the worst army over the world and our ploiticians are among the most dishonest ones in the world. It is not a hidden fact. I also agree that government should have not killed the Lal Masjid people. I am totally against these MAWARA-E-ADAALAT murders. My point is only to criticise the way out which the Lal Masjid people adopted. I said in this world intentions are not punished. Rather, acts are punished. Might be the intentions of Lal Masjid people were very much correct (I used the words "might be as I dont believe so) but the acts they did were not correct. Irrespective of whatever dishonesty has been spread in the roots of our departments, the acts of lal masjid people appeared to be incorrect. I am not alone who gives this statement. Imam-e-Kaba and Muftian-e-kiram including Mufti Rafi Usmani Sahib, Mufti Naeem Sahib and Maulana Taqi Usmani sahib have openly decalred the version of Lal Masjid people. As far as this matter is concerned, my opinion does not collide with the opinion of renowned Ulema-e-Kiram of Pakistan. I take guidance from their statements. I also apply my own mind (that may lead to wrong conclusions) as Holy Quran orders me to do so. I am also a biggest supporter of concept of rule of law. In my view government should have not killed them. They should have been arrested, given due respect as a muslim and as a leader of some persons and be presneted before a court having jurisdiction over this matter for correct justice.

As far as punishment of government is concerned, the persons who did the injustice will be responsible one day for their acts. I have belief on it. But the Pathans, u mentioned have no right to kill those who have nothing to do with the decision making of government high ups. You know, as per reports, the so-called Ulemas distributed the tickets of Jannah (physically, if u can believe it) among the suicidal attackers. This is ridiculous. To whom you are going to kill. Innocent muslims who had nothing to do with lal masjid killings. If government was a wild animal then who are you? What loss it will make for Musharraf? Why we dont think about it? I can tell u why.

Miss Coollioness, you said

All big hospitals, universities, colleges, shoping centers, computer institutes, employment oppertunities, everything is centeralized in few cities of Punjab and Sindh."

The facilities you said are concentrated in few cities of sindh and punjab is not a correct statement. There is a difference in the population of four provinces which to some extent shows this imbalancement. However, in NWFP, Peshawar, Noshehra, Mardan, Abbotabad, Nathiagali (even Murre is near to NWFP boundries), Mansehra etc are the renowned cities and every such facility which is available in punjab is also available there. I have personally visited all these areas.
You can see two medical colleges in Abbottabad (abbotabad to mansehra road) and One medical college in Peshawar. Might be some may exist in Mardan or else but I am not aware. If in punjab there are 7 or 8 medical colleges and in NWFP there are three or four medical colleges, then this ratio is not bad. You must also know that in every college, university and in every job published by government there is also a specified quota for far off places. However, in jobs and education facilities of these far off places, there is no quota for punjab. Further, in all the cities of NWFP mentioned above, colleges, education system and even universities are available for students. These facilities have to depend upon the population. This is not a matter of raising some fight among the provinces. I would feel pleasure if more facilities are granted to these areas. However, we should not declare anything impartially. You know even in punjab, the basic facilities are not available to a big mass of population. I basically belong to a village and am zameendar. I witness that when i was in village, no specialist doctor was available to us almost in the circle of 60 or 70 kilometers and we always had to run towards some big city like Fsd or Lhr etc. Still, we never have any complaint on our tongues. We are poor and developing nation. Things have to take time to bring all the prosperity to us. We dont have to kill each other for any alleged wrong distribution of resources.

You also said

"they are much behind from the people of other two provinces, Punjab and Sindh, but its not their fault. Its all Govt who never bothered to give attention to these areas. Either its nothern areas ar Sarhad province, majority of public is illiterate there."

You in ur statement agreed that majority of public is illiterate there. Just leaving the reasons for these situations for a moment I would like to discuss this illiteracy problem. Prophet Muhammad Peace Be Upon Him ordered the Ummah to get knowledge even if one has to proceed towards china. No where it was mentioned that it is meant for DEENI TALEEM. Of course it was meant for Dunyavi taleem. We have already discussed it in detail at some other thread. It was also not ordered that do not educate your girls.

You know coollioness, every thing cannot be appreciated just becoz those pathans are against this government so those must be called waliallah. The prominant persons of NWFP never wanted to allow the establishment of these facilities in their far off areas just to keep their hold. They have been using their men like animals. This over the period created two minds; very advance minds like Sher Pao and Wali Khan families and Very conservative minds like the so-called Ulemas of these areas. Both minds have been working to get their benefits.

This is what they even today are doing. They dont much appreciate the education in their areas. They even kill those who ask them to send their sons and specially daughters to schools and colleges. Just go there and check out what they are. Mr. Mahsood died last day during a fight with security agencies. His all family members are highly educated. But this person Mahsood left studying during his graduation and join the militants group. The gus who promote militancy dont want any body to get higher education. This may be the fault of the government but to a great extent this is there own fault.

I know these people very closely and very correctly (in my perception). You know I am also a Pathan and I relate to a village of punjab which has total population of rigid pathans. It consists on every crude pashto speaking pathan sub-caste like Khatak, Afridi, Sher Khan, Yousaf Zai, Karlal Kakkey Zai, and others who have very embedded roots of their families in ILAQA GHAIR and other parts of NWFP. Some of them are also punjabi/urdu speaking. These are mainly those who have been migrating from Afghanistan and then some times living at Lora Lai (Balochistan) and then in Punjab resulting the intra-caste marriages and other factors leading to mixing up of languages. Despite of being a pathan, I know that this nation is very rigid and very illiterate. Thats why they always do the things like bomb attacks and other militant activities. Do you think they are MOMANs. Even the people of our village commit murders and run to the ILAQA GHAIR to get assylum. They have been misusing there traditions and respect which all governments have been giving them. During the current Wazirastan operation, one of the murderer of my village escaped from there and ran to Karachi. He killed his bhaabhi and maamoo of his bhaabi with the help of his brother (husband of that female). His brother has been anounced death sentence by supreme court and he was escaped by taking assylum in wazirastan. Eventually as a result of this operation he left wazirastan and now he is behind the bars. What you will tell me about these people. I am one from them and I know what sort of Islam they have and how much MOMAN they are. For God sake dont mix up your beliefs. The only marriage between two males in pakistan has been celebrated in this specific area of these so called Mujahideen. No one checks the realities. The sexual perversions (that are totally disalloed in Islam) are at extreme and all sort of Chars, Heroine, Cokane etc are easily available there. They openly trade such things. The keep young boys and dont like to go to their wives to much. These are not just the allegations. Conduct a survey and you will get the result. Recently, some PH.D doctors have conducted such a survey which could be found out by searching "child abuse in NWFP/Peshawar" in google.com. The results are miserable and distressing. Where go these aalims when this all happens in NWFP. Why this does not appear in front of their eyes. One can understand it. Yes, as an outlook one can see the destruction of some houses where zana has been witnesses, again out of court judgments just as Musharraf did. It is the big mistake if you think them the fighters of Islam. Allah hamaarey haalon par reham karey. (Ameen).

The keeping of swords by our Prophet Hazrat Muhammad Peace Be Upon him, cannot lead us to hold AK-47, missiles, bombs, suicidal jackets and rockets with us in a country where muslims are in government. If we have difference of opinion with such muslims, we have way out to resolve the issues. The Arabian society was not incorporated into a country with specified boundries. Safety and security of every tribe was its own responsibility. They were bound to hold swords and other things for their own security. In those days, there was no concept of police, army, rangers and proper courts. Justice was totally unplanted. Those days cannot be compared with current situations. Our country developed atomic weapons for our security. Major portion of our budget mainly supported by taxes paid by us (I this year paid income tax of Rupees 5 lacs almost without hiding even a penny of my income as it is my social responsiblity and I should not be dishonest with my country) is expensed out on our defence. We have more than 6 lacs army. We have law, constitution, police, courts and justice. I may remind you that justice is still available in Pakistan. One needs to strive for it. In this scenario and in view of internal security, government has prescribed licenses to so many allowable bore of ammunition and even has banned some ammunition totally. Why one should be dishonest with the laws of his country. Is it justifiable? Pitty on us. We sometimes just mix up the things and create baseless asumptions for our acts. As far as sword is concerned, yes, to comply that Sunnah, I also have a sword in my house that does not require a license as per law. One can keep modle sword in his house with Kalma Tayyaba marked on it as a gesture of compliance with Sunnah and love with the Propeht PBUH. However, law breaking is not a Sunnah Naoozbillah. I will again say, Allah ham par reham karey (Ameen).

I wonder if someone feels that the way out to fight back the yahood-o-nasara is embedded in Talbanisation. The way out actually is embedded in our progress on the path of technical and scientifical research. This is what was told to us by the Prophet peace be upon him. This is what we have to concentrate. We have to educate our next generation. We need to increase our productivity and to improve our economy. We need a strong economy so that we become able to talk the others focussing our eyes in their eyes. We need honest leaders. We need hard working in every sphere of life. We are hundreds of years behind the others. People have crossed the limits of moon and mars and we are talking about Talibanisation based upon a few suicidal attackers and countable Ak 47s that were again not invented by us. Is the glory of Islam expected to be brought up by having goreela war by always hiding in the hills and caves? Is it the future of muslims Naoozbillah? What we are going to believe. Allah hamein hosh ataa karey aur ham par reham karey (Ameen). I dont disregard the every concept of Talibans, they might have good things as well but extremism without having any technical, financial and scientifical backing will one day destroy us completely. You all are educated and some of you claim to have more than needed knowledge of foreign publications, then why you dont know upto what extent human has attained the progress and development. Can this wazeeristan and tora bora save us in the long run. If we will not think on it, they will crush us. Inshallah this will not happen with Islam as it the last and final religion sent by Allah. However, you must know God's Islam will not be affected if we will be crushed. God can cause us to be crushed by the hands of these yahood-o-nasara and subsequently can turn such yahood-o-nasara on the path of Islam. We are not the leaseholders of this religion. This has happened once before when Changez Khan killed 14 Lac muslims and afterwards his generation turned out to be GREAT MUSLIMS. Nothing is impossible for Allah. We should think positively and make ourselves able to talk to other nations on equality basis. Otherwise we will be crushed and they might subsequnetly become muslim leading us to a total failure and disaster.

Still, there is a time and we can clear our concepts. May Allah be with muslims and give them vision, force, sustainbility, fortitude, knowledge, progress, economical power and Ghalba on Kuffar. However, we will have to strive for it. We will have to eliminate dishonesty. We will have to be educated and advanced in all knowledges. We will have to be a strong economy (as Malasia is doing) and this will ultimately lead us to the chair of world governance. This cannot be achieved with suicidal attacks, isolated Khutbas without amal, developing militants independent of state backing, establishing courts at our own accord, giving concept of state within state, abusing presidents, leaders and other nations, challenging the govermental writ, killing innocents to take revenge from a few persons and many more such disappointing activities.

I think I have talked on this issue so much. I dont need to convince any one who does not like these ideas. I would try not to talk more on this issue unless if it would be unavoidable.

At the end I pray, may God give us wisdom and vision (even to me), may God make our minds positive, may God make us agreeable to the realities, may God be with muslim Ummah, may God help us in achieving progress and make us a strong nation. May God create agreement among all conceptual sects of muslims and abstain us from killing each other. May God make every muslim the gaurdian of other muslims with all the pure intents.

Best regards,

Kamran.

[Cool Lioness]

I must say this was a really great effort from yourside. Whatever you said, is quite right. And i am not going to deny anything. Its really sad that pathans are getting very bad name. I believe that first of all its lack of education. You say that one should go to even china to get education but tell me how many of us can afford first to bear the educational expenses and then travelling and lodging charges in a new city or country? The annual income of a person In Pakistan is i think hardly 300-400 US$. The solution to this situation is to construct schools and colleges in each city, and each village. And not only construction is needed but regular checking of those schools, the staff, the syllabus, each and everything should be controlled in an organized way. Make the education as cheap as it could be and quality as good as it should be. Once you have an educated nation with you, you solve atleast 50%-60% of your problems. Rest of the problems can be solved with excellent health facilities, right allocation of resources and justice at door step. Our people are extremely disturbed due to financial crisis. They are getting ground in various illogical, anti islamic social taboos. They need a peace of mind. Untill we do not bring this mental peace to our people, we will remain in the hell of problems. YOu said that incident of murdering Bhabi and her mamoon, what would be the reason behind these murders? Most probably Money or Property? Or doubtful character of Bhabi? Killing for such causes is common in whole Pakistan and not limited to specific people or area. I can qoute so many shameful incidence only in my surroundings which are only done by Punjabis. If pathans escape to Illaqa Ghair, Punjabi, sindhi and balochi also go there to save their lives. Since when our people has got that feeling of guilt that they should have after committing a crime? No one goes to the police. POLICE................. an other notorious department.
I agree that Pathans are rigid minded but all fingers are not alike. Punjabis also do alot in the name of Ghairat. The treatment with women and tenants in Backward areas, villages, of sindh and balochistan is known to all. I wonder that before 9/11 where were these Pathans or bomb attackers, or these Hardcore militants or Extremists? How they all have emerged so suddenly?

We all have good people, as well as bad people. Number of good is definitely dominating but i am afraid that our present situation is leading us towards some very serious situation.

I am a pathan too. Not from any village of Punjab but from NWFP. My mother tongue is Pushto. I have not visited those areas of NWFP but i have lived there and still go there whenever i get time in vacations. Therefore i agree to you that pathans are really rigid people at mind but they all are not same. You will find the majority simple and straight. All of them still marry to ladies, they go often to their wives therefore they usually have a big number of kids, atleast not less then number FIVE [)]. Also they prefer to keep only one wife throughout their lives. The ratio of Divorce in NWFP is minimum.

Today due to mental, social, political and economic slump, we are going towards decline. The responsible for this situation is only and only our leaders. These are not leaders who are supported by only a group of people. Leader tou woh hota hai jiss ki aik awaz par poora mulak khara ho jaey. We all are distributed. blaming each other, cursing each other, fighting with each other, we have sectors, we have groups, we have classes. We are becoming wrost then animals.

Yes we should pray but we should practically help our nation. Whatever help we can do. May be my or yours or few more help would be like Aatay mein namak, but slowly this number will multiply and there will be a day inshallah when we will have a nation with one thought, one motive and one slogan, thats would be Hum Zinda Qoum hain, Paainda Qoum hain.

Pakistan Zindabaad