Double Standard of Pakistanis towards the foreign

Astute Accountant · 04-27-2007, 02:57 AM

While reading the newspaper; I came across an advertisement of a public organization; demanding applications 4 the post of senior audit officer nâ audit officer. The eligibility criteria 4 senior audit officer was like this ACA nâ CPA (Pakistani qualified) having 5 years post qualification experience OR CMA, ACCA, CFA (foreign qualified) having 7 years post qualification experience. Whereas, 4 the post of audit officer the eligibility criteria 4 senior audit officer was as ACA nâ CPA without any post qualification experience as a necessity OR CMA, ACCA, CFA having 2 years post qualification experience.
The thing which I wanna share is that are the foreign qualification worth less in Pakistan (in the real sense)? Or is it the âdouble standardâ of Pakistanis towards the foreign qualified? On 1 hand, ACCAâs r going 2 take charge as the Auditor General of Pakistan while on the other hand they r required 2 have âMoreâ post qualification than the Pakistani qualified. If it is the case, they might be assuming that only those students opt 4 foreign qualifications who canât get admission in CA. But their approach is absolutely wrong nâ more importantly âunfairâ.
If CMA or ACCA r worthless in Pakistan, r v simply wasting our time nâ energies???

Muhammad Amir · 04-28-2007, 07:00 AM

Nothing Alarming

Salmancert · 04-28-2007, 01:27 PM

Dear all, first of all you should know that ACCA's are required to complete module e & f of ICAP to be a ca. I am not saying that ACCA is not recognised or it is worthless, i am saying that ACCA has always been at this level. In UK after ACCA, in order to qualify as an ACA from ICEAW you will get exemptions from some papers but not all. The moral of the story is that ACCA is recognised and accepted the world over but the ca has its own place. And we are not in position to compare both of them

Imran · 04-28-2007, 03:07 PM

We can compare ACCA and CA. ACCA is an ant and CA is elephant, ACCA is lake CA is ocean, ACCA is Shami Burger CA is Bone less Chicken.

Muhammad Amir · 04-29-2007, 06:50 PM

Mr Imran had already compared CA and ACCA as per his metal level..it's all his thoughts i can't say any more about it because i already identified GUPTA SHUKLA 1965 standard CA's lot of loopholes and lot of ACAs and FCAs really recognized my criticism in this forum and other real life forums too.... i am 1000s of time compared ACCAs prestige in contrast of CA(ICAPs) one can search them in this forum...i am no a qualified ACCA but i ALHAMDULLILAH have great Mashallah Insight in ICAPs policies so it's worthless to talk to people like "Imran" a neem hakeem...i want ask from Mr Imran that how many modules you have cleared of ICAPs CA.....i also want to criticise ACCAs students as well because of their lack of confidence to cope with CAs criticism...Dear all ACCA students you are the members of World's largest and fastest growing accountancy body you have a great monopoly in all UK,USA,Middle East markets you have monopoly in IFAC(International Federation of Accountants Committee) In IFAC your views regarding international standards are always golden words for IFAC in standard making and value addition too there are you people whoes views are hered and these are you ACCA members whose strategies are implemented in IFAC...tell me any more about ICAP what is their value in IFAC will they(Icapians) even show me a singal standard which had passed in IFAC as from ICAPs stand..........thought deep dear.People like Imran are actually complex facing people whose prsonality has already blundered by ICAP's 10s of attempts of each module....i invite all ICAPians that to debate with me on this topic INSHAALLAH i will prove the reality among you as i already proved it in lot of forums too and i always stand by my covinent...........and in the last but not the least thing for ACCAs that is ACCA is having it's own prestige it's own caliber, it's own class which is far much bigger then CA's woh bhi ICAP's so please don't try to make your qualification as the route to CA woh bhi ICAP always think broader don't think only about audit practise lisence ICAP can ony audit in pakistan or may be in some arab countries but ACCAs can Audit in 73 countries of the world......think broader....for example ACCAs must think for qualifications like CFA,CIA,CMA, and others but thinking for CA woh bhi ICAPs is big infact biggest foolishness in all........My last messge to all ICAPians is that please don't complex be calm and cool if ACCA is capturing and destroying your market don't try to show your metality in public forums ..... and i invite to all ICAPians including Imran that please come and do join our ACCA's modern accountancy body...and leave your orthodox, conservative ICAP because futhure will of ACCAs and they will be inshaALLAH in dictating terms in near future INSH_ALLAH....

Regards
Muhammad Amir

Astute Accountant · 04-30-2007, 04:23 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Imran
 We can compare ACCA and CA. ACCA is an ant and CA is elephant, ACCA is lake CA is ocean, ACCA is Shami Burger CA is Bone less Chicken.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Kush Fehmiann!!!huh!!![D] If ACCA n' CIMA r nothing as compared 2 CA n' ICMA then y do they award honrary degrees 2 us( CA awards it after passing only 2 modules while ICMA after only 2 papers). Be radical 2 accept things with open mindedness.

Astute Accountant · 04-30-2007, 04:34 AM

All the others Thank u very much 4 ur participation.[)]A

kamranACA · 04-30-2007, 08:56 PM

Dears,

Amir is very good at saving the repute of ACCA all alone. While all others know what ACCA is. Amir has recommended to get other qualifications after ACCA. He should clear that whether he suggested it due to any short-coming in ACCA or due to having extra knowledge and grooming. By the way I agree his idea of having more than one qualification.

In one of his posts I read that he has advised ACCA to do what was correct in his view. Just imagine his confidence. He is student of second stage/module/part I think and he is advising his association not requesting it. Hopefully he wud do so much after qualification, Inshallah.

We have an employee who is ACCA qualified and we are paying him Rupees 15,000 per month and he is quite happy with it. I dont disregard ACCA but it has to take some experience and time to make a place in Pakistan.

Mr. Amir should base his comments on realities. What a joke is it that he again and again assures his ACCA community about ACCA's worth but again and again guys are showing doubts over it.

Off course he is correct that audit is not the only field to be adopted. Still, we must not let the others to be mislead. Can he point out 15 or 20 ACCAs who are working on top most jobs in Pakistan in terms of pay, status, and exposure without having parallel CA qualification? While one can point out 1,000 of ICAPIANS and much more than it. I mean even more than 99%. We are not discussing the rare cases. Sampling has to be done from the whole population.

I dont have to prove CA better than ACCA. It is already proved whatever Mr. Amir expresses the concerns. I have full regard for ACCAs becoz it is a well known qualification. (I dont use the word "prestegious" and it is not my biase.)

Let's us capture the basic point. The matter for an individual is not the recognition of ACCA in such and such so-called number of countries. One Pakistani has to foresee his future in Pakistan. It is most preferrable. The guys who have worked in Dubai etc can be consulted what the environment is over there. Yes, if some body has certain plan of migration to UK or gulf, ACCA can work for him. In my view very nominal number of individuals can succeed settling down in UK not for the visa reasons (as HSMP visa is available) rather for the reason of every one's own circumstances.

I dont have any concern for any one if he is going to join CA or ACCA. One should use his/her mind and can take decision. But in my view ACCA should be choosed only if one does not have a plan to make a place in Pakistan.

As far as ICAP policies are concerned, I feel these are in accordance with IFAC's charter and are similar to other Institutes of Chartered Accountants. For clarification, I mention that I dont regard CIMAs or CMAs or ACCAs as chartered accountants. This is my own view. No body should be affected. If some one dont find CA achievable due to whatever reason or so-called ICAP policies he should not disregard it. Either come upto its standard and get the CA qualification or dont call it "GRAPES ARE SOUR".

Rest assured, in Pakistan, only those give statements against CA who dont find theirselves able to do it due to whatever engineered reasons. I think no body should have any doubt over it.

I dont have any enemity with ACCAs, they are like our brothers. This post is only aimed at to save the new entrants from misconceptions.

Hope every one would find what has been written in his destiny.

Best regards,

Kamran.

kamranACA · 04-30-2007, 09:27 PM

Dear Astute Accountant,

ACCA if allowed to be placed on government jobs, is a good news for you guys. We should hope that as the country would progress, more and more vacancies would be available for various qualified people.

In my view, it is good for you to have such oppurtunities. ACCAs should come forward and make their places in the economy.

As far as matter of double standards is concerned, it is not the double standard my dear. Every country gives preference to its own resources and products. Similar policies ICEAW has for CAs of other institutes. There might be influence of ACCA to regularize such policies anywhere in the world which I dont know and even dont want to know becoz i am least concerned. At such places ACCA might be doing as it likes. You can see the matter of exemptions and so many others. Every one has a prerogative to save himself against any unforeseen things. ICAP being the institute chartered by government of Pakistan, has the right to regularize in the manner and style it thinks appropriate.

By the passage of time and by virtue of increased qualified ACCAs, it might one day get further improved recognition in Pakistan. Therefore ACCA people should work hard and try to expand their base. I think the major reason of lesser preference of ACCA is lack of practical knowledge and relevant exposure.

You guys, in Pakistan, have to learn all this from CAs. This is your limitation. Every industry has varying levels of internal controls having diversified set-ups and facets. Knowledge of business and processes is must to run an industry. How can we talk about business process re-enginerring, if we simply dont know what exactly the process is. Even in profession, if you dont have exposure, you cant succeed. This all comes by the passage of time. Every one can learn it, i dont have any doubt. Every one can off course learn it. But in Pakistan learning this all is only resourced with ICAPIANs.

It will take some time when you people become a resource of knowledge and exposure.

My prayers are with you all.

Regards,

Kamran.

Muhammad Amir · 05-01-2007, 06:31 AM

I was expecting from Mr KamranACA to take part and he does so..now regarding KamranACA's thoughts i quote these feelings in word that is "Jelousy", and other more appropriate word "Ehsas-e-Kamtari"...know regarding his quote that and ACCA is earning 15,000 and he is happy in this so for his kind information he might not be an ACCA that is may be he did not have 3 years experiance and i know 100s of examples for people(ACCA)who are earning 15,000 to 30,000 with no experiance(3 years audit firm)....so this is even good...and i also know people who are ACMA(ICMAP)and ACA(ICAP) earning 30,000 to 35,000 in KESC(Karachi Electric Supply Corporation) with more then 20 years experiance so if i compare his(KamranACA's)ACCA of 15,000 with no experiance with an ACA and ACMA for worth of 30,000 to 35,000 with 20 to 25 years experiance...so still ACCA is looking batter.....i also want to mention here one more thing that earning is upto your fortune your luck your devotion your deserveness and your skills....A quality qualified who has an authority in his subjects can't suppose to even earn 1000,000 per month...but in contrast a sub standard qualified with major loopholes in whether in his personality or in skills may not even deserve for 3000 per month...so its all upto your devotion to your subjects...

In the end i appreciate KamranACA that he joined to defend his Gupta Shukla standard(60's)ICAP keep going on...but i am ammazed that kamranACA had not reacted on one of my strongest point about ICAP recognition of standards with IFAC...probably he gave up for this..

nakaiun · 05-02-2007, 02:45 PM

Assalam o alaikum
i salute to MUHAMMAD AMIR who is the only one defands acca aganist ca. first thing i would like to say is that to say

"acca is an ant and CA is elephant, ACCA is lake CA is ocean, ACCA is Shami Burger CA is Bone less Chicken."

is completely ridiculous thing this is a fact that ca get more pay and preference in pakistan is right but this does not mean that acca has no worth.acca require time to stable themself in pakistan those acca's who does articlship from big 4 ca firms get 30000 to 40000 so i advise all acca's to do articlship from ca firms their worth will automatically increases
ALLAH HAFIZ

Muhammad Amir · 05-02-2007, 07:25 PM

First i thanks to my brother "nakaiun" then i say one thing which i already said 100s of times that earning is upto your fortune you can earn even 100,000 by opening a "PAN SHOP" and i know one person who is earning 60,000 to 70,000 froma "PAN's Shop" and he has 2.OD in his hands tell me about this he is not even a 2nd Class pass student...so quoting this case is only to tell all of you about your studies with earning perspective.....

and then i will say that ICAP is established from 1960......and no doubt having great market all over the country...but on contrary ACCA has introduced(PRECISELY) in 1998 in pakistan this huge time period difference is enough to prove the increasing worth of ACCA...

One thing more which a question lot of us think about "WHY ACCA HAS GOT GREAT EXPOSURE NOT ONLY IN PAKISTAN BUT IN WHOLE WORLD?" answer is so simple just because of very advanced study techniques, systems and program flexibility...and people now a days having very few time because they are also having lot of other tasks to be done...thats why ACCA has captured World wide markets....

XBRL · 05-02-2007, 10:32 PM

You all i would suggest are wasting ur and ours time in defending and attacking the institute who themselves certainly not require such defence, neither do they have appointed you as solicitors whatsoever.
It has been clarified on this forum that never indulge in talks which create confusion among new joiners and cause disregard to various reputable insitutions. I wonder if some admin of this forum may be able to kindly map the qualification of members so that we might be able to comprehend the educational level attained by the poster.

As regard my personal contribution on the topic, i have seen in the practical field a lot of CAs not doing any good and a lot of ACCAs doing good. Yet as pointed by Kamran those CAs who r not doing any good may be 2-3% of members and those ACCA who are doing very good might be around 4-5% of whole pakistan members.

Yet one thing is for sure. Globalisation and harmonisation has helped various degrees to be competing with local degrees. A CA is deemed to be an accountant in MNCs whereby an MBA of foreign business school is ranked equvalent or higher. As regard finance, a wave of CFAs are there to compete with them. Yet i personally being related both to ACCA and CA can say it for sure that if ACCAs want to excel they will definately have to enter into the financial services - business units like tarde finance, credit, risk management, and treasury functions. An ACCA with MBA of any gud business school can do a lot better. Yet comparison of degrees is nevertheless an unhealthy exercise.

I know a highly paid derivate trader of a foreign bank of pakistan whois not a CA or ACCA. He is an ACMA. But with efforts and pst job studies he is competing with a lot of CFAs.

In this phase of century no degree is better than ur personal strenghts of hardwork, intelligence, ethical nature and helping attitude.

Peace.
May Allah guide us all.

XBRL · 05-02-2007, 10:34 PM

my 11th last line * nevertheless a healty exercise***

Schuaeb · 05-03-2007, 01:49 AM

Wow, I got myself absent from this forum for just a couple of days and to welcome me was this interesting thread, real interesting are the comments and not the topic itself.

However, I won't agree with XBRL's concerns that admin should get involved to stop such discussions (rather wars)

Also, such discussions may seldom come to some conclusion. May be some independent and un biased third person could draw some conclusions for him self.