09-22-2004, 04:30 AM
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Well here goes
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Azeem
hi
in response to Prac's msg.
the best way i can think of is to quote u whereever possible and ask some very simple straight forward questions.
QUOTE #1
Pracs
)) Yes we are the Pakistani nation !! true.. and muslims or christians or Hindus or Parsis or Sikhs etc.
Azeem
so when it comes to Pakistan - we become a nation, two nation theory referred Pak and India as two nations not Muslims and Hindu? we can be muslim , hindu, sikh, parsi, christian and can still be called ONE NATION if we are Pakistani (a nation).
if that is true than we were one nation before partition, the only difference was our name......we were Indians then. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
The two nation theory is not dead it is there.. remember that Pakistan meant a country where the muslims of the subcontinent (a majority ie) have a country to run and lead their lives as muslims,.. this does not mean that all non muslims would not be part of the nation (because muslims in India would be part of a non muslim majority country) so the balance was very much necessary... unfortunatley the likes of Nehrus and patels forced the partition of Punjab and Bengal. Getting Pakistan would also mean that muslims would have a chance of blossoming into areas where they in the British days were sidelined... (this is true for the Pakistan part), muslims in 'India' were prevelant in most professions.. unfortunately most of them migrated to Pakistan !
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QUOTE # 2
Pracs
' You will find that in the course of time, Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as the citizen of the stateâ â Muhammed Ali Jinnah â Quaid e Azam. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
Azeem
the passage itself contradicts with the ideology and justification of two nation theory. if Mr Jinnah knew that religion will become personal faith then what was the point of having a POLITICAL COUNTRY on religious grounds.........we could always be called INDIANS (citizen of the state) and remain muslims in faith.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
Jinnah new that very well,.. he tried his best not to go the other way.. but in Pakistan he saw that 'muslims' could become fathers of their own destination.. it was a political movement for the muslims.. muslims in an undivided India could have simply been sucked into the mainstream... I know you will point to muslims in India, but I think we in Pakistan have time and out tried to influence world opinion.. and even India when it comes to the rights of Muslims in India,, You must agree that in the after math of Barberi masjid-bombay riots and even the recent Gujrat genocide.. we have made a difference,.. I think pressure from outside (as in Pakistan) is more effectie than would have been had we been just provinces in an undivided India !
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QUOTE # 3
Pracs
Unfortunately the very ideology of Pakistan was hijaked after independence,.. people who sat on the fence and cried wolf became the country's gaurdians its Masihah.. well that is another argument all together,, some other day.
But Yes we are Pakistani first and foremost and muslims undoubtdly, the Muslim Ummah, Azeem, is dead ! you just need to take a look at the OIC and the 52 (or is it 54 now) muslim countries. We may have an Islamic state some where down the time line.. under Imam Mehdi. but that is destiny.. for now we are a Pakistani nation ,, and should think of ourselves as such .. Pakistan first and last.
Azeem
agree thats a seprate debate, also agree that Muslim Ummah is dead.
slight disagreement on the probabilities of joint effort or atleast a first step towards a united islamic block (ofcourse not in a geographical sense), i m quite optimistic about it and infact forsee it happening soon........perhaps a joint aggression of two notorioUS powers against Iran (which is very likely) might instigate a big change in OUR thinking. anyway thats something we are not discussing now. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
I would like to agree with you on this one, I wish I could see something of that in my life time... The two countries you refer to had been at war for a decade.. but if its fate... Iran just announced today that it will not stop its uranium enrichment programme !
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QUOTE # 4
Pracs
We may have yes.... but the thing is,.. the merger of India and Pakistan would have been an artificial thing.. a cosmetic operation... these are and will remain different regions, they have been so historically even in pre Islamic times. The concept of a Pakistan was to have enough minorities (of Hindus and Sikhs) in Pakistan so as to make the minorities in both countries comfortable Congress played the part of villian and had Punjab and Bengal partitioned.. The league wanted these provinces un partitioned in Paksitan.. then Kahmir happened.. that is why Jinnah refered it to as Moth eaten Pakistan... Jinnah left his house in Bombay intact, his two cars and purchased the shares of a new IPO the Air India comapany ! simply that he wanted India and Pakistan to fucntion and live side by side as Canada and US... as these regions had done in the Past !! So Pakistan is as natural as Iran or England.
Azeem
riots were going on well before the partition, i dont know who could think of a peaceful partition then. Jinnah was an intelligent brain, he exactly knew what was happening, due to his illnes and immense pressure of the attrocities he speculated - he almost accepted whatever finally offered - i know Congress was no angel - but thats politics is all about - Jinnah did extremely well but it was an unfinished job.
not just his property and cars, his daughter still lives in INDIA. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
Well that is kind of harsh,,, he could not have forseen that the Sikhs in Punjab would turn against Muslims on Hindu instigation ofcourse ! and that practically every princely state army would start butchering muslims and that the British would look the other way, suddenly getting intimidated of their small numbers (it took them 200 years to realise that) at the wrong time.
It was unfinished..because Jinnah died... Had he lived another 5 years things would have been different and we wouldn't have been having this discussion )
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QUOTE # 5
Pracs
That sounds more of like for argument sake... there are no further nations in Pakistan there are people who speak different languages !! Iran has people who speak Persian and minorities speaking blauchi, tajik, uzbek, even arabs.. does that mean Iran cannot function as a country. Malaysia has people speaking and of different origins,, Malay, chinese mandrian, Tamil etc.. is Malaysia not a country ? Iraq has a shia - suni,.. population do we divide into two no... then why do we think of Pakistan on the same lines ?
Azeem
i dont know what it takes to describe people as a separate nation, following diffs come in my mind
- Religion
- Language
- Colour
- Culture
- Logistics
- Hatred
starting with religion - everyother firqa or maslak is non-muslim to the other one, we speak diff languages, yes we all have diff colour (yes i m quite fair)) our culture is diversed like NWFP and Baluchistan are more conservative, logistically every single province has more similarities with our neibouring countries then with any pakistani province, for eg Baluchistan share similarities with Iran - NWFP with Afghanistan - Punjab with Punjab and Sindh with Gujrat. i m in my late 20s and i have seen enough hatred and socio politic prejudice in Pakistan. i have spent 25 years of my life in Karachi and have witnessed REAL violence and blood shed b/w Mahajir Vs Pathans, Sindhi Vs Mahagirs, etc etc.
well thats not my point - i totally agree with you - we cant make separate homelands on the above issues..........then what was the issue when Pakistan was created???
ever wondered how many people have been killed in Pak & India during the last 57 years, whether during wars, religious riots, freedom struggle etc. i guess thousands and thousands of people died........it would never have happened .........dont know who gained from partition. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
We cannot be sure of what could have been and if millions or thousands would have still died.. but with the kind of attitude Congress metted out during the negotiations I doubt that things would have been better.. more on the worst side. I am sure I would have not been who I am today had it not been for Pakistan. My Grand father was an illiterate shop keeper before partition,.. he grew into a business man in the very first decade of Pakistan.. and prospered during the Ayub Era,, his children went to school..
I do not carry any guilt on part of the Indian Muslims, since they were never meant to be united with us.. Pakistan had been a different country for thousands of years..
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QUOTE # 6
Pracs
Well the ratio would have been something like 3070 and we just left behind 130 million or 13 crore Muslims in India and not 30 crore .. there are muslims outside of India in south asia around 30 crores(15 crore Pak + 13.5 crore Bengla. If you go by Canada-US model.. we did not abandon them... there was only one new change which was migrators from the North India to Pakistan, these people were asked by Jinnah to come over simply becasue they were better educated and Pakistan needed them...I think the position in an undivided India would have been more difficult and bloody..remember the language riots and other like wise riots in Bengal pre partition... two huge communities cannot live with each other at logger heads,, but a majority and minority can !!
Azeem
population at present
Pakistan = 15 - 16 crore
India = 20 - 22 crore
Bangladesh = 15 - 16 crore
on a prudent side it totals 50 crore against 80 crore hindus, the ratio comes to something like 4060 at present
come on pracs! i didnt expect it from u,
"two huge communities cannot live with each other at logger heads,, but a majority and minority can !!"
yes one big majority and minority can live happily as a MASTER SLAVE relationship..........there can be only two situations either hindu muslims could not live together or they could. historically they lived for about a millenium (whether in one country as a whole or in diff states) and for the last half century they have survived even as a minority.
obviously 6040 ratio would have boosted the lives of muslims in South Asia and we would have been more UNITED as muslims. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
Well wrong math Azeem.. in the recent population census (based on relegious affinity for the first time in Indian history !) the figures for muslims in India is 135 million
Two huge nations living together give me one example... Bosina is what goes wrong (where Muslims- croats - serbians fought like animals)
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Pracs
The Founding fathers did not dream the concept of Pakistan in sleep and no Iqbal did not just forget Bengal.. he was working on the same historical prospect of Pakistan,, Bangladesh has been in hstory either part of India or an independent region ! so what happened in 1971 was natural the bengalis were never meant to be Pakistanis.. the original Lahore resolution authored Sherae Bengal Fazlurehman .. spoke of muslim nations ! not muslim nation, not Islamic nation, not Islamic nations.... our history books have been doctored by people who have brought this country to the mess it is ! We lived with them together for 900 years... but ever in a single country !! don't forget that.. and even in India the Muslims ruled !! but never in the same country except for during the Mughals (the four kings) and Asoka... the British had hundreds of Princley states.. so it was never one country either..
Azeem
i m sorry i dont want to answer this - i will be labelled a racist,
just an indication to u and u are wise enough to read b/w the lines, bengal was in every sense superior to punjab......what we witnessed in 1971 was the finishing touch. we never wanted bengal - we never wanted their rule.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
Don't worry I have had my shocks in life early,, the day MQM was born and all the Mohajirs in my class actually took a count of Punjabis and Pathans in my class. Then when I visited Pakistan and met educated Pathans who thought poorely of Jinnah and did not speak Urdu considering it as a tool of Punjabi dominaton (sic).. I am all over that and greatly respectly people's point of view, which may not necessarliy meet mine. So if you are not comfortable on that,,I won't push you on that,, but I think its better to talk and differ and convert or be converted or be not converted than to slit each other's throats
I agree that Punjabis were fairly backward politically compared to Bengalis and the Mohajirs and the Urbanised Pathans (because of their tribal rather than feudal outlook and the frontier Gandhi), but in the last 50 years we have graduated and are now more politically educated and have exhibited impartiality to all sorts of ethnicity... atleast in Politics
Kher BANGLADESH is a complete topic which we will discuss at some other thread some other day...
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
QUOTE # 9 LAST BUT NOT THE LEAST
Pracs
Just like to add that,.. it does not matter so much as to if you agree with what or how or why Pakistan was made.. as long as you are a citizen now.. and have your loyalties towards Pakistan.. I will respect you more the same...
Azeem
its true, creation itself doesnt need to be justified, i dont want to justify why pak or why not pak? i am a pakistani and a proud one, nobody can doubt my loyalties just because i dont agree with their views, i m no less patriotic then them. i love my country and will remain do. i dont have to justify why i was created - I am Pakistan infact Islamic Republic of Pakistan, needed or not is history.
"even our name says Islamic before Pak." <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
Though it hurts to admit or let others say that lets not get into justification,, for I believe there are justifications infact fairly good reasons... but i can let go for any one who is a proud pakistani !!
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Azeem
congrats!!! we are victoriuos yet again, lets hope we raise the ICC cup this time.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
Was a great match,,.. loved every moment of it,, had great fun today with the Indians at the work place...!!! tried to pick you in the crowd at the stadium, Azeem.. guess you were home watching on the tele...
Pakistan Paindabad
"Allah does not change the state of people unless they change what is within themselves" Quran 1311
"Allah does not change the state of people unless they change what is within themselves" Quran 1311
Well here goes
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Azeem
hi
in response to Prac's msg.
the best way i can think of is to quote u whereever possible and ask some very simple straight forward questions.
QUOTE #1
Pracs
)) Yes we are the Pakistani nation !! true.. and muslims or christians or Hindus or Parsis or Sikhs etc.
Azeem
so when it comes to Pakistan - we become a nation, two nation theory referred Pak and India as two nations not Muslims and Hindu? we can be muslim , hindu, sikh, parsi, christian and can still be called ONE NATION if we are Pakistani (a nation).
if that is true than we were one nation before partition, the only difference was our name......we were Indians then. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
The two nation theory is not dead it is there.. remember that Pakistan meant a country where the muslims of the subcontinent (a majority ie) have a country to run and lead their lives as muslims,.. this does not mean that all non muslims would not be part of the nation (because muslims in India would be part of a non muslim majority country) so the balance was very much necessary... unfortunatley the likes of Nehrus and patels forced the partition of Punjab and Bengal. Getting Pakistan would also mean that muslims would have a chance of blossoming into areas where they in the British days were sidelined... (this is true for the Pakistan part), muslims in 'India' were prevelant in most professions.. unfortunately most of them migrated to Pakistan !
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
QUOTE # 2
Pracs
' You will find that in the course of time, Hindus will cease to be Hindus and Muslims will cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as the citizen of the stateâ â Muhammed Ali Jinnah â Quaid e Azam. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
Azeem
the passage itself contradicts with the ideology and justification of two nation theory. if Mr Jinnah knew that religion will become personal faith then what was the point of having a POLITICAL COUNTRY on religious grounds.........we could always be called INDIANS (citizen of the state) and remain muslims in faith.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
Jinnah new that very well,.. he tried his best not to go the other way.. but in Pakistan he saw that 'muslims' could become fathers of their own destination.. it was a political movement for the muslims.. muslims in an undivided India could have simply been sucked into the mainstream... I know you will point to muslims in India, but I think we in Pakistan have time and out tried to influence world opinion.. and even India when it comes to the rights of Muslims in India,, You must agree that in the after math of Barberi masjid-bombay riots and even the recent Gujrat genocide.. we have made a difference,.. I think pressure from outside (as in Pakistan) is more effectie than would have been had we been just provinces in an undivided India !
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
QUOTE # 3
Pracs
Unfortunately the very ideology of Pakistan was hijaked after independence,.. people who sat on the fence and cried wolf became the country's gaurdians its Masihah.. well that is another argument all together,, some other day.
But Yes we are Pakistani first and foremost and muslims undoubtdly, the Muslim Ummah, Azeem, is dead ! you just need to take a look at the OIC and the 52 (or is it 54 now) muslim countries. We may have an Islamic state some where down the time line.. under Imam Mehdi. but that is destiny.. for now we are a Pakistani nation ,, and should think of ourselves as such .. Pakistan first and last.
Azeem
agree thats a seprate debate, also agree that Muslim Ummah is dead.
slight disagreement on the probabilities of joint effort or atleast a first step towards a united islamic block (ofcourse not in a geographical sense), i m quite optimistic about it and infact forsee it happening soon........perhaps a joint aggression of two notorioUS powers against Iran (which is very likely) might instigate a big change in OUR thinking. anyway thats something we are not discussing now. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
I would like to agree with you on this one, I wish I could see something of that in my life time... The two countries you refer to had been at war for a decade.. but if its fate... Iran just announced today that it will not stop its uranium enrichment programme !
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
QUOTE # 4
Pracs
We may have yes.... but the thing is,.. the merger of India and Pakistan would have been an artificial thing.. a cosmetic operation... these are and will remain different regions, they have been so historically even in pre Islamic times. The concept of a Pakistan was to have enough minorities (of Hindus and Sikhs) in Pakistan so as to make the minorities in both countries comfortable Congress played the part of villian and had Punjab and Bengal partitioned.. The league wanted these provinces un partitioned in Paksitan.. then Kahmir happened.. that is why Jinnah refered it to as Moth eaten Pakistan... Jinnah left his house in Bombay intact, his two cars and purchased the shares of a new IPO the Air India comapany ! simply that he wanted India and Pakistan to fucntion and live side by side as Canada and US... as these regions had done in the Past !! So Pakistan is as natural as Iran or England.
Azeem
riots were going on well before the partition, i dont know who could think of a peaceful partition then. Jinnah was an intelligent brain, he exactly knew what was happening, due to his illnes and immense pressure of the attrocities he speculated - he almost accepted whatever finally offered - i know Congress was no angel - but thats politics is all about - Jinnah did extremely well but it was an unfinished job.
not just his property and cars, his daughter still lives in INDIA. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
Well that is kind of harsh,,, he could not have forseen that the Sikhs in Punjab would turn against Muslims on Hindu instigation ofcourse ! and that practically every princely state army would start butchering muslims and that the British would look the other way, suddenly getting intimidated of their small numbers (it took them 200 years to realise that) at the wrong time.
It was unfinished..because Jinnah died... Had he lived another 5 years things would have been different and we wouldn't have been having this discussion )
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
QUOTE # 5
Pracs
That sounds more of like for argument sake... there are no further nations in Pakistan there are people who speak different languages !! Iran has people who speak Persian and minorities speaking blauchi, tajik, uzbek, even arabs.. does that mean Iran cannot function as a country. Malaysia has people speaking and of different origins,, Malay, chinese mandrian, Tamil etc.. is Malaysia not a country ? Iraq has a shia - suni,.. population do we divide into two no... then why do we think of Pakistan on the same lines ?
Azeem
i dont know what it takes to describe people as a separate nation, following diffs come in my mind
- Religion
- Language
- Colour
- Culture
- Logistics
- Hatred
starting with religion - everyother firqa or maslak is non-muslim to the other one, we speak diff languages, yes we all have diff colour (yes i m quite fair)) our culture is diversed like NWFP and Baluchistan are more conservative, logistically every single province has more similarities with our neibouring countries then with any pakistani province, for eg Baluchistan share similarities with Iran - NWFP with Afghanistan - Punjab with Punjab and Sindh with Gujrat. i m in my late 20s and i have seen enough hatred and socio politic prejudice in Pakistan. i have spent 25 years of my life in Karachi and have witnessed REAL violence and blood shed b/w Mahajir Vs Pathans, Sindhi Vs Mahagirs, etc etc.
well thats not my point - i totally agree with you - we cant make separate homelands on the above issues..........then what was the issue when Pakistan was created???
ever wondered how many people have been killed in Pak & India during the last 57 years, whether during wars, religious riots, freedom struggle etc. i guess thousands and thousands of people died........it would never have happened .........dont know who gained from partition. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
We cannot be sure of what could have been and if millions or thousands would have still died.. but with the kind of attitude Congress metted out during the negotiations I doubt that things would have been better.. more on the worst side. I am sure I would have not been who I am today had it not been for Pakistan. My Grand father was an illiterate shop keeper before partition,.. he grew into a business man in the very first decade of Pakistan.. and prospered during the Ayub Era,, his children went to school..
I do not carry any guilt on part of the Indian Muslims, since they were never meant to be united with us.. Pakistan had been a different country for thousands of years..
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
QUOTE # 6
Pracs
Well the ratio would have been something like 3070 and we just left behind 130 million or 13 crore Muslims in India and not 30 crore .. there are muslims outside of India in south asia around 30 crores(15 crore Pak + 13.5 crore Bengla. If you go by Canada-US model.. we did not abandon them... there was only one new change which was migrators from the North India to Pakistan, these people were asked by Jinnah to come over simply becasue they were better educated and Pakistan needed them...I think the position in an undivided India would have been more difficult and bloody..remember the language riots and other like wise riots in Bengal pre partition... two huge communities cannot live with each other at logger heads,, but a majority and minority can !!
Azeem
population at present
Pakistan = 15 - 16 crore
India = 20 - 22 crore
Bangladesh = 15 - 16 crore
on a prudent side it totals 50 crore against 80 crore hindus, the ratio comes to something like 4060 at present
come on pracs! i didnt expect it from u,
"two huge communities cannot live with each other at logger heads,, but a majority and minority can !!"
yes one big majority and minority can live happily as a MASTER SLAVE relationship..........there can be only two situations either hindu muslims could not live together or they could. historically they lived for about a millenium (whether in one country as a whole or in diff states) and for the last half century they have survived even as a minority.
obviously 6040 ratio would have boosted the lives of muslims in South Asia and we would have been more UNITED as muslims. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
Well wrong math Azeem.. in the recent population census (based on relegious affinity for the first time in Indian history !) the figures for muslims in India is 135 million
Two huge nations living together give me one example... Bosina is what goes wrong (where Muslims- croats - serbians fought like animals)
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Pracs
The Founding fathers did not dream the concept of Pakistan in sleep and no Iqbal did not just forget Bengal.. he was working on the same historical prospect of Pakistan,, Bangladesh has been in hstory either part of India or an independent region ! so what happened in 1971 was natural the bengalis were never meant to be Pakistanis.. the original Lahore resolution authored Sherae Bengal Fazlurehman .. spoke of muslim nations ! not muslim nation, not Islamic nation, not Islamic nations.... our history books have been doctored by people who have brought this country to the mess it is ! We lived with them together for 900 years... but ever in a single country !! don't forget that.. and even in India the Muslims ruled !! but never in the same country except for during the Mughals (the four kings) and Asoka... the British had hundreds of Princley states.. so it was never one country either..
Azeem
i m sorry i dont want to answer this - i will be labelled a racist,
just an indication to u and u are wise enough to read b/w the lines, bengal was in every sense superior to punjab......what we witnessed in 1971 was the finishing touch. we never wanted bengal - we never wanted their rule.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
Don't worry I have had my shocks in life early,, the day MQM was born and all the Mohajirs in my class actually took a count of Punjabis and Pathans in my class. Then when I visited Pakistan and met educated Pathans who thought poorely of Jinnah and did not speak Urdu considering it as a tool of Punjabi dominaton (sic).. I am all over that and greatly respectly people's point of view, which may not necessarliy meet mine. So if you are not comfortable on that,,I won't push you on that,, but I think its better to talk and differ and convert or be converted or be not converted than to slit each other's throats
I agree that Punjabis were fairly backward politically compared to Bengalis and the Mohajirs and the Urbanised Pathans (because of their tribal rather than feudal outlook and the frontier Gandhi), but in the last 50 years we have graduated and are now more politically educated and have exhibited impartiality to all sorts of ethnicity... atleast in Politics
Kher BANGLADESH is a complete topic which we will discuss at some other thread some other day...
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
QUOTE # 9 LAST BUT NOT THE LEAST
Pracs
Just like to add that,.. it does not matter so much as to if you agree with what or how or why Pakistan was made.. as long as you are a citizen now.. and have your loyalties towards Pakistan.. I will respect you more the same...
Azeem
its true, creation itself doesnt need to be justified, i dont want to justify why pak or why not pak? i am a pakistani and a proud one, nobody can doubt my loyalties just because i dont agree with their views, i m no less patriotic then them. i love my country and will remain do. i dont have to justify why i was created - I am Pakistan infact Islamic Republic of Pakistan, needed or not is history.
"even our name says Islamic before Pak." <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
Though it hurts to admit or let others say that lets not get into justification,, for I believe there are justifications infact fairly good reasons... but i can let go for any one who is a proud pakistani !!
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Azeem
congrats!!! we are victoriuos yet again, lets hope we raise the ICC cup this time.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>
Was a great match,,.. loved every moment of it,, had great fun today with the Indians at the work place...!!! tried to pick you in the crowd at the stadium, Azeem.. guess you were home watching on the tele...
Pakistan Paindabad
"Allah does not change the state of people unless they change what is within themselves" Quran 1311
"Allah does not change the state of people unless they change what is within themselves" Quran 1311
