Have we betrayed Muslims in India

[Pracs]

AOA ALL

This is a very serious topic and if you happen to be in contact with Indians and especially Indian Muslims, you are made to think

One Muslim from India said this to me when I was in class 6, 'You got Pakistan of the two nation theory and by carving out Pakistan you have put us in the most difficult position,.. we are looked down upon by fellow Indian Hindus ! .....you left us to die in India and got your own corner stone mosque !'

Ofcourse not all Indian Muslims are of the opinion. The question is was Pakistan a selflish mean to our ends (muslims of the pakistan and bangladesh areas)or did it really make a difference and turned India into the Secular country it is today,... The president is a muslim and the prime minister (even though by default) is a sikh !

Azeem shah sb. your que,...



Edited by - pracs on Aug 28 2004 41542 PM

Edited by - pracs on Aug 28 2004 42010 PM

[Ice_Blue]

well yaar, if Islam was really the reason why Pakistan was created, then why didnt we include Afghanistan( a Muslim majority area so close to us)and insisted on including Bangladesh miles away.

p.s its just a joke dont take it seriously,
i am a true patritic Pakistani and know my duties

Ice Blue

[Pracs]

looks like u were dozing through all those Pak studies classes (or were u on a bunk ? ).... just kidding..

well the ideology goes about for a seperate homeland for the muslims of South Asia, which meant the question and stake was British India. Afghanistan was then a kingdom (part of central asia) and unfortunately the only country to oppose pakistan's application to the UN. The afghan king over night had a patriotic ilking for pakhtoons in pakistan (afghanistan is pakhtoon and dari/persian).. anyways that is another story....

Ice blue you can be a patriotic pakistani today without having to agree with the two nation theory... Pakistan has been kind enough.. after all the the political party opposing pakistan's creation Jamat ulema hind (now JUP) runs government in one of the provinces today..

Your patriotism may only be put to test when it is directed against the state of PAKISTAN.

[jbladeus]

Yaar Pracha sahib

I dont believe that all indian muslims conform to this view. Maybe the past generations used to since they had seen the bitterness of those times, but the new generations certainly dont.

Anyways, coming to the topic of two-nation theory, i believe that however flawed it may seem at times, but time and time again it has been proven that yes it was better to have two-nations based on religious divides in south asia than a single entity. Examples? the religious riots that have plagued india for the last 50 odd years.

My point is that its better to have two or multiple nations in areas of the world where there is searing inner hatred for the other's religion, ehnicity or community like we had over here in South asia. Example, the former Yugoslavia where there was hatred building in between the muslim, orthodox christian and catholic christians for literally centuries and was only held at bay by the iron hand of marshall tito (was that his name, cant remember clearly). So when he was no more we all know what happend, swords were drawn against each other and bloodshed took place at an unbelievabale scale. Same was the case in Rwanda where the hutus and tutsis were although living side-by-side, but kept hatred for the other's community in their hearts and one day it just all came out like a volcano.

Lets just ignore all the factors and wrong-doings of the past of the affairs in the middle east (Israel and Palestine), do we realistically believe that they (Isarelis and Palestenians) can live in a single nation with each other? I dont think so. So the ony solution for them is two have two separate states living side by side. I believe thats where the two-nation theory lies vindicated.

It may be flawed and it might not seem to be morally or politically correct, but it sure is the most practical and logical theory around for places like south asia which are severly divided on racial, religious, ethinic backgrounds.

________________________
Arrrgh... it sure's gonna be mighty rough sailin' today ... mates!

[Azeem Shah Khan]

Dear pracs

i will come back to it very shortly.

anyway u know my answers, we had a longgggggg discussion over it sometime back. Guybrush i m still unable to understand ur point, in first para you mentioned that Muslims in India NOW dont face THE SAME BITTERNESS with the passage of time, then later on u started saying it is next to impossible to live together as ONE nation. i think i have misunderstoood u

i will InshAllah write in detail later

regards

azeem (a Muslim - and want to be identified as a MUSLIM)

[Pracs]

I agree with you Guybush,.. the topic has been floated here for two many reasons

1) to convert Azeem sb. to our side of the camp )
2) to help the younger generation grasp the ideology of Pakistan,.. I forsee the next decade as a very decisive one,.. with our neighbour now imbimbing into our social fabric via media incursions.

I agree that not all Indian Muslims scoff at us for Pakistan. I also sympathise with those that scoff us, some times it is more of being loyal than the king.

I'd recommend you to read "The Saga of Indus Valley Civlization" by Aitezaz Ahsan. This book alone brings out the ideology of Pakistan like anything. An Undivided India is simply an Utopia,... In the 3000 -4000 years of recorded Indian history it was undivided as a single nation state only under Asoka, Akbar and Aurungzeb. Even the British had to rely on hundreds of princely states (which ran as independent countries, except on the issue of foreign policy and tax to the Queen/King).

Jinnah was the most unlikely person in the history of this region to be a Partitioner, even until 1943 (three years after the Lahore resolution) he believed that Congress would see the light and make possible a fedration based on modern democratic linings with constitutional guarantees for the rights of all minorities. Jinnah who was a congressia in all its essence was the best individual to understand and comprehend that Pakistan was inevitable. The very reason why he agreed to a moth eaten Pakistan minus Kashmir, minus Gurdaspur, minus the finances and infrastructure needed to run any state was because he saw it as the only option for the survival of all Muslims of India. He was never thought that the two neighbours would turn into bitter enemies, mind you he never sold his property that was partitioned into India,.. he had in mind something on the lines of US and Canada. Ofcourse the likes of Sardar Patel, Nehru and others had something else in mind,.. they died with the wish of seeing Pakistan choked to death and coming back to India for a fresh supply of air.

There are people across the border who are waiting for Pakistan to fail, they don't care for another 3 Bangladeshes... Pakistan is an anti thesis for them. Well, Pakistan was meant to be there are a few historical incidents which i fondly remember... all of the below during their life times were somehow opposed to Pakistan and its stability

-The Royal house of Afghanistan, the only country to oppose Pakistan's memebership to the UN.

-King Faisal of Egypt who made fun of Pakistan when some one told him Pakistan was the new fort of Islam.

-Bhutto and Mujeeb two people for dismembering our eastern wing, one was hanged (with no public protest whatsoever), the other murdered in a coup by his own country men.

-Indian PM's Indra Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi both had expanisionist designs on Pakistan and met their own death before they could instill damage onto us.







Edited by - pracs on Aug 31 2004 120630 AM

[jbladeus]

Pracs
agreed with most of the stuff you wrote. Just want to make a few points/clarifications/corrections.

a) India was not united even under the above mentioned. Modern day Bengal and NWFP/Baluchistan were never under Ashoka's rule. Similarly, South India was never conquered by the Moghuls, hence wasnt part of Akbar's or Aurangzeb's empires.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>There are people across the border who are waiting for Pakistan to fail, they don't care for another 3 Bangladeshes... Pakistan is an anti thesis for them.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>

b) Well there are loonies on all sides. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> Our ppl arent too saintly in this regards either. Some of them still shout "Hindustan ke tukrey tukrey honey tak humari jang jaari rahey gi".

c) I dont know why we are in so much love with our afghan "brethren" whilst they have always opposed us right from our independence.

d) Pracs, i think that it would be unwise to put all the blame of the breakup of Pakistan on only two (or three if Yahya is included) persons. It was a ongoing process which started right from independence and culminated in the times of Bhutto, Mujeeb and Yahya. Our misfortune was that were ruled by some bloody opportunists at the time who were all ready to forsake the national interest for their personal politics. I believe that even they couldnt foresee at the time that things would go that bad or would eventually end up in the breakup of Pakistan. (Maybe Mujeeb did... but who knows)

And besides, We never treated the Bengalis properly or gave them their due share in the country's resources or governance in the first place. They were always 2nd grade citizens for us... only good for cleaning, washing and farming. According to us, those "4 1/2 foottey" were supposedly not fit for the army or police. IMHO the things which happend in '71 were bound to happen ... if not in '71, then sometime later... but they were surely bound to happen, just because we thought of us as superior beings in comparison to Bengalis.

________________________
Arrrgh... it sure's gonna be mighty rough sailin' today ... mates!

[jbladeus]

The book u mentioned sounds interesting. Will try to read it.

Thanks

________________________
Arrrgh... it sure's gonna be mighty rough sailin' today ... mates!

[Pracs]

Guy brush

Hmmm... yeah agree on that one, I should have said 'a major part of South Asia' was under undivided rule. That more than anything negates the 'Akhand Bharat' myth.

There is no doubt about the kind of behaviour we as a Nation metted out to our muslim brethren..(they were a major factor in the Pakistan struggle) in East Pakistan,.. we did think of ourselves in West Pakistan as the Martial races.. that thought us a lesson.. u can only push some one to a certain limit.

However, back in 1947.. Jinnah's first speech to the people of East Pakistan (Dhaka Univ) wherein he proclaimed Urdu to be the National language brought out muted cries of 'NO',. a leading opposer at that time was the student leader Mujeeb ur rehman. So the Bengalis were not on board to start with. The author of the Lahore resolution Fazlur Rehman (the erstwhile and poweful Chief Minister of Bengal (later Pakistan resolution) mentioned of independent states (later ammended as independant state)Having said that, we could still keep them aboard despite the enemy between us. Bengali was made an official language later in the Ayub Era,..but I guess it was too late by then.

I say Bhutto and Mujeeb because it was their decision that put a date on the partition of Pakistan ! Bhutto despite being the leader of the minority party thought it was his birth right to be our ruler,.. and Mujeeb by putting out the 6 points (which spelled out an independant country) and never making serious efforts to reconcile. Yahya though sided with Bhutto,.. but I give him a better grading,. he is the only person under whose interim government were held the most free, fair and impartial elections. Though, I am no great fan of the drunkard fool.

we are not only in love with Afghans, but the Iraninans, the palestenians, the Indonesians any one who's got a muslim name. I guess we see ourselves as the Big brother.. sadly none of the younger brothers have ever helped us in our hour of need.

The Afghans for one have pilferaged our very nation,.. an un reversable wrong has been done. Do you know the Islamic Republic of Iran's forces were on our eastern border in 1980.. right after the revolution because of a small border dispute.. Ofcourse the Iraqis pitched in and Iran had to dismantle the operation to keep its western borders clean.... Until then we had always thought that the Iranian part of the border is safe, therafter the Pakistani Army has put in plans to secure that part.

For once we need to think as PAKISTANIS first and foremost, like Dr. Mahathir's Malaysia.. that is one example we can replicate if we put our efforts into it.

[jbladeus]

Astagfurullah Pracha sahib!

Do u want us to become like those half-infidel malaysians who for the sake of worldly pleasures live, eat together and share lives with other hindu and chinese malaysians and as a result have also become literate and masters in worldly crafts??!! <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

Never... we'd rather taste the fruits of the true paradise in our later lives. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

________________________
Arrrgh... it sure's gonna be mighty rough sailin' today ... mates!

[Pracs]

hmmm )

Yeah I know that is how we (as a society) think. Well, leave out the Kafirs (for the time being) there are just 3-5% of the total population. The least we could do is try to leave among,.. us .. muslims for that matter.. shia, sunnis or whatever.

Dr. Mahathir is going to be in Pakistan... I'd surely like to hear what he has to advice the pakistani nation, I wish we could import him to run pakistan for a five year term (since he's retired from Malaysian politics... now try imagining one our politicans even thinking about that... the only Pakistani ever to do that was the great Mr. Jinnah -- he settled in for GG,.. and let the party elect Liaqut Ali Khan).

I caught his interview on Geo TV,, in an interview with Fahad,.. I hope I can get a transcript of that to post it on this forum..

[jbladeus]

yeah, i saw it too.

Good stuff.

________________________
Arrrgh... it sure's gonna be mighty rough sailin' today ... mates!

[Azeem Shah Khan]

i must apologise not to participate on this forum

havent read ur posts as yet, will definitely write something asa i have gone through ur valuable views

regards

azeem

[Pracs]

Response awaited eagerly... )

"Allah does not change the state of people unless they change what is within themselves" Quran 1311

[Pracs]

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
i must apologise not to participate on this forum

havent read ur posts as yet, will definitely write something asa i have gone through ur valuable views

regards

azeem


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" size=2 id=quote>

Still waiting !!!