How much stipend should be?

[Sarfaraz]

Dear All

Kindly tell me the amount of stipend that should be given to CA trainee's during articles and please justify the amount.

In my view in the first three months of articles the stipend should be 3,000/-
In next three months it should be 3,500/-
In the next three months it should be 4,000/-
and In the next three months it should be 5,000/-

After 1.5 years of articles it should be 6,000/-

and so on ........

Above figures for guidance only however partners of firms are encouraged to give higher amounts of stipend

[Asifkhan]

In my opinion it should start from Rs.5000/- , at least, with regular increments of minimum Rs.500/- after every three months.

Let me ask here, why are we so cruel when it comes to giving someone what he or she deserves? Why do we always think better for ourselves and when it comes to others we entirely change our philosophy???Why

I think we should encourage our students by paying them what they deserve, it would not only help them in financing their studies but also it may be of help, perhaps to some extent, to their families as well.

I have seen people leaving the profession because of low stipends given by the firms they left because they did not have any other means of income and have to support their families while studying so the only alternative they had was to do some sort of job which would pay them reasonable amount of money but do you know at what cost???? AT THE COST OF THEIR FUTURE.

Therefore, this whole thing needs to be changed drastically so that we have sense of pride in our profession without any exceptions.

[derivativetrader]

I don't know whether 3000 or 5000 is the good starting salary but I think it should be a true reflection fo company's charge rates to their clients. If trainees hours are not chargeable, which I will doubt, then company's do have to even pay the dinner money.

Could someone familiar with the situation kindly comment on this?

DT

[Pracs]

The way it works is that charge rates for trainee accountants are not comparable to those of qualified accountants (who earn salaries instead of stipend). Not going into the ethics of the 'stipend' method it is reflective to the charge out rates. That is primarily the reason why it is possible to use large audit teams in Countries like Pakistan, Sri Lanka, India and South Africa and still maintain low charge out rates as compared to the UK, US or even the Gulf countries.

[Sarfaraz]

http//www.icap.org.pk/ATRs/Atr-14.htm

ATR-14 (Revised)

MINIMUM HOURLY CHARGE OUT RATES AND MINIMUM FEE
FOR AUDIT ENGAGEMENTS

1. The Council of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Pakistan periodically reviews and prescribes minimum hourly rates, which it considers reasonable and compatible under the existing market conditions and quality of professional standards to be observed by the practicing members of the Institute. The current minimum chargeable rates as prescribed by the Council of the Institute are shown below.




Rupees

Per man-hour







Partner

3,500

Qualified Assistant







Senior (5 years or above)



2,100



Junior (0-5 years)

1,400

Supervisor

500

Senior

350

Semi-Senior

285

Junior

175



2. The level of fee is to be mutually agreed between the auditor and his client, which largely depends upon the volume of work involved and estimated time to be incurred by the auditor. The Council whilst recognizing this principle is however, of a view that there has to be minimum threshold of audit fee.



3. To achieve the desired objective, the following parameters are being prescribed which shall govern the determination of a minimum prescribed audit fee (which may be increased by consent having regard to specific circumstances of a company) based on the applicability of any two parameters within a category. In case of applicability of a combination of parameters in a specific situation, the highest prescribed minimum audit fee shall be applicable.

[derivativetrader]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pracs</i>
<br />The way it works is that charge rates for trainee accountants are not comparable to those of qualified accountants (who earn salaries instead of stipend). Not going into the ethics of the 'stipend' method it is reflective to the charge out rates. That is primarily the reason why it is possible to use large audit teams in Countries like Pakistan, Sri Lanka, India and South Africa and still maintain low charge out rates as compared to the UK, US or even the Gulf countries.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So, when does an accounting professional in countries such as Pakistan start to get a salary?

[noman]

stipend rates would never go up.......
bcoz those greedy babay in council will never let it go up.......they are themselves partners in firms....so how do u expect them to reduce their own income and give it to some slave donkeys???

[Sarfaraz]

Phir bhi yaar just 3,200 per month

I mean to say as per labour law hi dekh lain

aik articles trainee sirf ap ka professional staff hi to nahi hota

ap ka rider, peon, electricion, driver, assisstant, secretary etc. bhi to hota hai

i mean to say partner agar raat ko 12 baje call kar k bula le to bechara kahta hai yes sir i m coming to complete your assignment.

ussay to ap 3,200 pay karain aur phir kahain k u should follow the dress code, should have pleasant personality and bla bla bla ......

[hanifasif]

Exploitation bus or kuch nae. ICAP makes policies only to benefit its members. See the lavish living styles of audit partners. They just feast on the hard efforts of the trainees.

Audit trainees are the lowest paid professionals in Pak. When I came here (middle east) I was surprised to see the level of salaries (stipend) for beginners in audit firms. A beginner ( bilkul kora) got more than 30 times than what you mentioned (Rs3200). Even now scale has only gone up never down. OK audit fee may be higher compared to Pak but even then average salary per audit trainee per audit fee is more. This level of salary is enough for you to save and even support your family back home. The paltry amount CA firms pay is not even enough to pay your gasoline bills. Imagine you being the eldest son, your father is weak and old and you are the sole earner. Are you ready to spend 5 + years doing CA even when you are not sure about the outcome. Can one afford the luxury of doing CA. So which one is expensive CA or ACCA. I am not judging which one is better. My point is you can always earn a decent living while doing ACCA. And its only the pre-qualification period I am talking about. It’s a different ballgame altogether when one qualifies.

ICAP really needs to revise it stipend rates, they are painfully low. ACCA in the form of strongest competitor is already out there in the market churning out 250 + accountants every six months. I can see the time when CAs will only be needed in statutory capacities. ACCAs with their rapid growth and with industry focused outlook have already started bagging good jobs. And the numbers of students attracted to CA are falling every year.

A legal cover cant protect ICAP for long.

Regards,

Asif

[Schuaeb]

Derivativetrador, an accontant begins to get salary after completion or his 3.5 years of articles in Pakistan. Before that what we get is WAZEEFA, thats the world for stipened in Urdu.

Had you guyz been audit partners you must have an altogether different opinion abount amount of stipened.(LOLZ)

The good news is we are gonna have an increament in our stipened, and this time its gonna be more than just a couple of hundered increament.

[noman]

how much increment then?? couple of more Fifities above the couple of hundreds??

[Schuaeb]

Noman sahab mera bas chale to das hazar ker don,

No use of makin a guess, jab increament hoa to dekh lain gay and mind you I'm more curious than anybody else.

[Pracs]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by derivativetrader</i>
<br />[quote]<i>Originally posted by Pracs</i>
<br />The way it works is that charge rates for trainee accountants are not comparable to those of qualified accountants (who earn salaries instead of stipend). Not going into the ethics of the 'stipend' method it is reflective to the charge out rates. That is primarily the reason why it is possible to use large audit teams in Countries like Pakistan, Sri Lanka, India and South Africa and still maintain low charge out rates as compared to the UK, US or even the Gulf countries.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">


Well, yeah the cut off point is completion of articles (training contract), if you pass all your exams you still get the upper limit of the stipend. What is quite interesting is that ICAP prescribed stipend rates are just the 'minimum' requirement. There has been only one firm in Pakistan which actually paid more than the prescribed rate,. it was ofcourse a Big5,.. In 2000 it got merged in another Big4/5 firm...

So, when does an accounting professional in countries such as Pakistan start to get a salary?

[Muhammad Ahmad]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Schuaeb</i>
<br />Noman sahab mera bas chale to das hazar ker don,

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I Recommend, you should be the President of ICAP!Hahahahahahah

And then definitly i will Join Article as I did CA Inter in Year 2003, and never ever went for articles...............

[Sarfaraz]

AOA

Dear U should start Articles coz jitni jaldee start karo gay utni jaldee khatam hon gay

Yaar jaise karwi cheezon ko kahtay hain k dawai samajh kar pee lo issi tarah articles ka yeh zamana bhi dawai samajh kar guzar lo

Infact during the job ap ko itni iformation nahi miltee jitnay articles main diversified qism ki training mil jatee hai

ap ko industry best practices ka pata chalta hai

ap yeh dekhtay ho k ap ka kon sa cliend kaisay apnay accounts handle kar raha hai aur manay more

mera to yeh khayal hai k main to job karoon ga hi nahi

INSHALLAH ya to Big 4 main se hi koi firm join kar lun ga ya apni firm stablish karoon ga ....

Coz I luv this field due to the knowledge and expertise we gain in it ....

Wish u best of luck

ALLAH HAFIZ