Is ICMAP bigger than CIMA?

[kamranACA]

Dear Greatkhans

Thanks for your reply. Somewhere after reading your first paragraph I am feeling guilt for having done something in recent past on another thread. However, I believe you can understand that it was with purest intention, and I believe, you know I am obliged for your brotherly gesture.

It’s really nice to see the contents, style and maturity that is reflective from your post. I appreciate people like you who have made achievements in life and are in fact using the education and qualification in the manner it requires from us.

Your friend from U.K. has highlighted a very basic element of our personalities and the society as a whole. I also appreciate that as a nation we have a basic instinct of not having open mind to listen and learn. We have lost tolerance and our behaviour is non-democratic. I have no other opinion on most of the very basic issues pointed out by you. However, with all the due honor and regard I differ couple of thing like IFAC’s role and similarity with UNO (since unlike IFAC the UNO is discarded and ineffective avenue), suggesting best education/qualification alternatives to aspirant students with decent merits and demerits etc and on some of those, I have already conveyed you my ideas.

In order to remind my NAFS and in order to inform the readers, let me again mention that I have no claim for any perfection (this carries a vast meaning) and have no claim of having fullest knowledge. I have always accepted wherever I was wrong on any technical issue or wherever I did not know something. I wonder how we can argue on any thing where we are obviously lacking something. Although I keep on doing this regularly, but I thank you for highlighting, with soft spoken words, the moral issues that always are effective to remind such things to our NFAS.

I agree to you that Laws come before ethical standards. There is no argument; however, in the case that was being discussed the Ethics Guidelines were indirectly made the part of law, so these are to be considered in its association.

I agree that ICAP is also a regulatory body and should step in whenever a violation is surfaced. However, it has developed very effective procedures to surface such violations. These procedures materially coincide internationally accepted systems and procedures. The issue to be considered is of “significance” and materiality” and “public interest”. Of course I am talking with reference to corporate set-ups that are obliged to get audited. Why the companies/entities have been segregated into categories like “Listed”, “Economically Significant”, “Medium” and “Small” follows the essence of making out procedures that at large ensure how to save the “Public Interest”. You know the regulatory requirements are enormous where more “public Interest” is embedded. ICAP is also naturally and logically more inclined to keep strict watch on this area. That’s why code of corporate governance was farmed, that’s why ICAP has developed detailed Audit Practice Manuals complying all the requirements of ISAs, that’s why Quality Assurance Board is set up, that’s why a Quality Control Framework has been developed, discussed and being adopted. You will appreciate that “large Public Interest” does not materially get affected with family owned businesses, Sole proprietorships, little partnerships, and small sized entities etc. Although ICAP’s QCR suggests having an enhanced focus on Public Interest entities but it does not preclude other entities from such review as well. However, very petty issues do not affect the essence and purpose of the audit and very small sized entities do not affect national level economy and large public interest.

Major businesses and their auditors cannot and don’t escape a check if something is wrong or odd. You may be knowing how detailed checking of financials is also performed by SECP and how much active it is these days on the fronts where public interest lies. However, every one who knows what is “Audit” understands the risks associated with the audit and its inherent limitations. Even a fraud or similar thing at a client not captured/reported by auditors does not mean that audit was incorrectly performed. That’s why in many historical cases worldwide, even upon discovery of big frauds, Auditors were not declared guilty of professional ignorance and misconduct based upon detailed, independent and technical reviews of their audit working papers and the evidences they gathered and the conclusions they made. This is a vast topic and I hope most of people on this forum can understand what I am conveying. Of course where professional misconduct is seen, it is punished. We have cases like Arthur Anderson as example. Similar is the practice in Pakistan.

However, on small sized businesses the problem if lies is on all the fronts; if very small practicing firms (in majority of cases) do any thing wrong to benefit their clients to get bank loans or similar petty things; it happens due to collusion in most of the cases. I personally know very renowned banks accept very critical reporting styles and financials for extending loans. I agree ICAP has to keep a watch on it as well, and in many cases such cases are punished and reprimanded; yet all the stakeholders need to realize their responsibilities as well. Why the people facilitating auditors from their pocket are not punished as well? Why SBP does not take action against banks while they accept low quality audited financials for extending loans that give rise to cases like Bank of Punjab and Haris Steel. Every one has a role here although ICAP’s role can also not be denied.

I agree with your suggestion to Awais that he should have focused on this all process, asked relevant questions (if he was un-clarified) and then have raised the things which he logically have felt to be pointed out as suggestion. All the questions which I asked him in my earlier posts were to transfer his attention to understand that he should go back on facts and learn what is what. He is ignorant of everything and is raising indecent issues that have called for the need of the reply that I know as a side affect has teased the honored and valued readers as well. As far as readers are concerned I feel like apologizing for the inconvenience they felt. But to the fullest of my understanding, had these answers not been given, the questions would have remained un-satisfactorily answered.

Thank you very much for your thought provoking post. I would love to be in touch with you in future.

Regards,



KAMRAN.

[kamranACA]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tariqsohail</i>
<br />Kamran,

Your post

"For God sake learn to speak truth"

By the way who told you that I am not speaking truth..also provide points where I deny to speak truth ever on this forum.

Yes but that's true that I can not write what somebody's mind is assuming that I should write.



<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">


Tariq

I don't find reason to have detailed arguments with you. Just for brief info, there was a lengthy post that raised some questions to CMA frineds. I was of the view that people will continue with their one sided "practice" and right after some moments, you proved that.

Ignoring a particular part while passing judgements is hiding of truth and hiding of truth tentamounts to avoiding of it.

If you find it irrelevant, or you feel I have an out of perception thought, I would request you not to discuss it further.

Regards,


KAMRAN.

[HafizNaeem]

I am very to say that ICMAP is not considered keen profession in our country as well as in Abroad.. I have experienced that most of ICMAP qualified working around 30k to 50K..

[shani420]

50k thora hai kia?

[Greatkhans]

Hi Kamran,

Thanks for your response which is really impressive and thoughtful. I think that you should not feel guilty. I know what caused you reacting on my remarks, but brother, a matured person like you know better than me that rules and principles are applied according to circumstances. Even in accounting we may depart from the GAAP, if doing so will have material effects.

I already said that I mightn’t have much insight on the ethics standards; I am just sharing my observations. I do respect your views about UNO to be discarded and ineffective avenue, but UNO people have their own justifications for that. But one thing is common that both are in New York. I wrote everything in very generic sense and no doubt some people are exception. I honour your feeling if you think; you are not part of that.
I am sure that your devotion, conviction, passion for the profession will compel you so help accounting professionals.

Regards,

[awaisaftab]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
{I am sorry folks; I am again going at length as the need has arisen to do so.}


Dear Awais

Tariq did not give any explanation on your behalf first of all; he only made an assessment that you did understand but “what was that which you understood” is unexplained. Only you can tell what exactly you understood when at one point you were feeling my post “very good” and at the other you said you were commenting only the “good points”. My question still needs to be replied by you provided you feel like doing so. You so far failed to explain the “bad points” in my post which I have invited you to point out. Instead you have starting beating about the bush that is your very old habit and that some other fellows have explained in a great deal.

A brief comment on your post regarding auditors and ICAP members is “You simply don’t understand anything about audit firms, the way their remuneration, facilities and entertainment is determined and approved, what this code of ethics is and how it is developed, and so many other crucial aspects, which without understanding if commented upon, will present nothing but a confused situation that your post depicts.”

Believe you me its nothing but a picture of confused mind’s perception and a feeling of having been deprived of some thing which you see others doing. I never commented on what and how people have analyzed you since it is not good to pinch some one personally for simply a debate. However, most of your questions are only cropping up in your mind because you don’t know the things. Just recall one of the old examples; you are probably “Accounts Manager” of a Medium or Small sized company and you were entirely ignorant of what local Financial Reporting and Accounting Standards have been developed for such companies and implemented through SRO 859(I)/2007. I remember you denied the existence of such standards at all and when you were informed and shown the truth you were not able to comment anything. I am not trying to mis-portray or undermine your personality. I might have thousands of shortcomings and a human learns life long. You can learn from me and I can learn from you and this process continues till the date of death. However, the purpose of reminding is that at so many occasions we don’t know the things and we mis-interpret them. Rest assured these will vanish once you will qualify and you will see the world.

You know due to your confusion you could not differentiate very much personalized acts of some individuals from the ethical requirements, precedents, policies and procedures of an institute that is the apex accountancy body of your country and on which all professionals are in fact dependent in one way or other.

A unique example of such confused mind is the BIGGEST allegation which you found about ICAP regarding some printing or typographical mistake on a book. You were so much confused that you yourself could not even properly spell out the word “CHARTERED”. If this is the condition of an evaluator, then should he evaluate anything and is he not personally confused or ignorant? Specially when his evaluation only surrounds a typographical mistake?

BROAD MINDED!

So my broadminded brother, if you failed to see the posts and threads where ICAP students have criticized their institute, and where so much has been discussed for improvements and considering the needs of the hour and making recommendations etc. then what can I do? Either you have to read all the messages in various threads or you should reconsider thee word “broad minded” for at least yourself. My brother, training arrangements, facilities, human resource issues, stipends, examination policies, exam leaves, loopholes, complaints / grouses and their solutions, lack of student in-take by firms, environment of firms, problems of new students, so-called “jabri mushaqat’, “what ICAP should do in what situation” and least but not last the recent posts exchanged on one of the thread at sub-forum “FIRMS” about ICAP’s recent survey……….. this all is about ICAP and is discussed, criticized, resolved, recommended, suggested by ICAP members or students mostly. If you cannot see it or if you don’t know what this is all is about then what can I say? By the way, it’s also a confused mind’s definition of being “Broad Minded” where he cannot even appreciate what others are saying even if he reads the posts and visits the threads. If you don’t visit the threads and don’t read the posts then this allegation is totally an output of confused mind.

CODE OF ETHICS!

If you don’t know how this code is developed, and to which international pronouncement it must comply with and without doing so it cannot be implemented, then what service I can offer to remove your confusions. You are totally unaware (although in certain recent posts we discussed the phenomena) of all the aspects of a code of ethics. You clicked your confused idea from Maqsood’s post and started reading the Code of Ethics without knowing the basics. I would suggest you to first complete your education and qualification, then comprehensively read how IFAC, IASC, IFAC boards and committees were established, what are the structures of such boards/committees and whether or not Pakistan is represented on them now or in past, how over the time standards and professional pronouncements were developed, altered, revised, what was the purpose of doing this all, what were year-wise changes in each standard, why some of the standards were replaced or totally repealed, where we are compliant as a country and where compliance is not possible and why it is not possible, why local pronouncements over-rule international ones and where such differences exist….. so on ….. and so forth. Then you may also try to understand the Code along with the procedure that how it is developed (and how necessary is to comply this Code with the Code issued by IFAC), you will hopefully understand what it is. Your allegation is lame, without understanding the facts and needs no clarification at all since it will tentamount to strike my head against a rock (at least in this case). I know I am wasting so much time with you but it would be a total purposeless wastage to give you a comprehensive lecture on Code. Every one who knows what is what will laugh at your post. You know I use to say that you have your own Code of Ethics. I know you cannot understand. Some other brothers have highlighted it as well. I will only say that please don’t adopt a Maulvi sb’s strategy or methodology in analyzing the things. They can make such basis (as you have made in your post) and declare that whoever would believe that Human has visited Moon will be Kaafir. You have done similar things.

……………………….I am currently on one of the special committee constituted in Pakistan to analyze the latest revision in Code Of Ethics issued by IFAC last year and I can go at so much length to make you understand even clause-wise differences, amendments, revisions and clause –wise variance with reasons from the Code at the moment implemented in Pakistan. However, I am not doing it for obvious reasons explained in previous lines………………………

AUDIT TRAINEES’ LUNCH!

You said, “it was my first experience the audit was continued in my company”. So brother, if you are totally new to a thing you cannot understand it at once. Take time and you will come out of very petty issues of “Mix Vegetable” and “lunch, vehicles, guest house stays, hotel stays, by-air traveling, well known restaurant” etc. The remuneration and facilities provided to auditors are always as per approval of shareholders and these may include (dependent upon agreed terms) the seating arrangements, office space, computers/printers, stationery, other logistics, free usage of vehicles, phones an faxes (for official use of course), free meals (which are always of reasonable quality), free stay at guest houses or hotels, free by-air traveling if required and such other things. If minutes of your shareholders meetings have not been properly drafted, raise this point internally (for next year draft it properly and in quite detail) and wherever you feel things are over your capability or beyond the agreed terms, clarify it with management and then through CFO with the audit firm’s engagement partner. It’s very simple.

You cannot shift the responsibility of any wrong doing of individuals (if it really is) to the entire firm or the Institute. People, including myself and yourself, individually may have so much deficiencies and lacking. Every thing can be amicably resolved. There was no need to getting aggressive at all. Who knows what limits you or I may also be crossing as far as rights and obligations are concerned? If you are also not doing the needful (as proposed in above paragraph upon such incident) then you are also at fault. Correct your record, properly record the minutes, clarify the rights and obligations, and stick to it. If some one is doing wrong, report it to the audit firm. What’s issue in it that you are highlighting at the forum in the way you did? I can bet that your minutes would not be properly drafted and you would be missing written agreed terms and would be doing the things as per precedent. Normally, such facilities are provided from year to year under the situation of a precedent. It is by no means illegal or unjustified if you have agreed it in writing in shape of minutes. Normally out of pocket expenses are agreed without agreeing a cap. This creates issues, so if you have problem with auditors (which I know your management must not have), you can do the needful, provided you are empowered to do it. However, if things are done or demanded beyond the agreed terms by audit staff, it is also wrong at their part. Still, it is individual act.

We in firms also host so many guests (prospective or existing clients and specially upcoming clients from abroad). We always offer them nice tea, coffee, lunch or dinner at quality places including five star hotels’ restaurants and in some cases stays as well. In most of cases such guests don’t even finally give us the business. These all are moral, precedental, and normal practices and are remembered as a good gesture. If some where some one is feeling jealousy as to why such guests are being treated with nice hospitality, then it will raise no issue but reflection of deprival and confusion.

LESSER AUDIT FEE AND NOTORIOUS COMPANY!

ATR-14 is in place to define how audit fee is calculated. It was also there in 2007. Audit firm can decide fee within the prescribed limits and I guess Rupees 25,000 for a small partnership would not be too short in 2007. However, it has to depend on fee slabs applicable at that time. What point you are making by telling this fee?

As far as notorious firm is in question, you at your own have accepted that action has been taken against him. In early days such actions were taken by SECP but now this right mainly exists with ICAP and not SECP. This is important to understand. Individuals can be wrong. What’s issue in it? If there is a monitoring system in place, quality check is made, performance is evaluated, systems and procedures have been implemented then notorious elements do not survive in the longer run be it whoever. Institutes and bodies make procedures and systems and then monitor the people under its yardsticks. They are a check on malpractices but are not at all a surety that no malpractice will ever happen. For an understandable example, Islam is a best code of life, did it ever provide surety that no malpractice will happen. Yes, it provided yardsticks, monitoring methodology and the punishments when malpractices are done. This is a basic principle.

Some questions for you. Have you heard of Quality Assurance Board and do you know who its members are? Do you know which firms can audit Listed companies? Do you know what is SBP’s panel for auditors? Have you ever heard Modaraba’s panel or stock exchanges’ panels for eligible auditors? Do you in fact know what is Quality Control Review of firms, who and how it is carried out? And what actions are taken against members guilty of professional misconduct? Do you at all know what is “professional misconduct”? Are you aware how many and what actions ICAP has taken against its members in say last 5 years? If you don’t know then what point are you making out here as a philosopher. Just to counter some thing. Kia ho ga is qaum ka?

Try to understand that my post about ICMAP is not a criticism on its practices and/or an attack on the honesty and practices of its members (which you are not so far). I have always well regarded CMAs who are or were working at my clients (specially in public sector) and the CMA institute as well. The purpose of my post was to highlight the areas which if they will improve will enhance their audit capacity building speed and effectiveness. I no where degraded any one in my post specially like the cheap acts of mentioning some CMA’s names with what they have or they are doing. Should you require listening what most of your CMAs are doing in public sector? I can quote 100s of such examples. If yes, ask me in private to let you know since declaring it on forum with names may be unprofessional. So, if you are countering it, then raise some quality issues and discuss some real lacking areas so that we may be benefited by it. Don’t act childishly without understanding anything just to satisfy some inner hurts.

You said,

“According to directives of SECP and the guidelines issued by ICAP auditors and charted accountants are restricted to provide only few services, especially in case of listed companies, I am sorry to say that I know about a big four audit firm which is providing share registration services to its one client. This is a confirmed violation of rules and regulations as well as ethical standards.”

I am sure you cannot prove any violation. Although individuals and/or even firms can do wrong things but certainly if some Big 4 has done it, it must have reasons or law’s interpretation for doing so. You wrote this again because you are entirely ignorant and unaware of the structures of the professional firms and are totally confused of where you are in this world. I would like to caution you to completely understand the matter you are wishing to write and then come back if it is still not clear to you with the facts of the case.

IAS APPLICABILITY!

Again this reflected your partial lack of knowledge of the subject matter. Are you aware that financial statements are the responsibility of management AND NOT OF AUDITORS? If auditor (in a given case) is ignoring some thing he will have to face the consequences and it is the real life fact. Some one cannot escape all the life. However, you tell me how much lacking you have of the required expertise and knowledge that you transfer your responsibilities on the shoulders of the auditors and even then claim to be Manager of Accounts. Why should auditor tell you what you have to do? Escaping disclosures and providing as short as possible information is always the tendency of management. If you have prepared financial statements without taking into account IAS-12 then primary responsibility is yours. Auditor is not required to prepare disclosures or make accounts on your behalf. He should modify his report if required as per ISAs and if he has not done so he is only responsible for his report and audit. Even then for financial statements only you are responsible. What point have you tried to make my brother?

You said, “Incompliance (probably non-compliance) with IAS-19 is also very common in many cases”. Can you tell me in which cases you found this non-compliance? Just quote a few cases and I believe it will be your misunderstanding to a greater extent. I hope you would not be knowing which companies don’t need (as a must) to follow actuarial method and for which companies it is a must. I can bet. If you will ask why, then I will tell you why I hope this for you. Please come with examples. Moreover, if it is there by all means, then who is primarily responsible for it? Certainly you the Manager Accounts i.e. the management. How can you shift your responsibility and eventually try to connect it with some thing missing at the part of ICAP. Try to understand that auditor is responsible for his report. If he is lacking on this area he faces consequences. It is an on-going process and all MATERIAL cases are evaluated to assess it.

You said,

“This shows that in our country only few persons know about IAS-12.”

What should I comment on it. You are proving a point against ICAP and you don’t even realize by saying this you are fully disgracing your CMAs as well who claim to know every IFRS/IAS. Kia cheez ho yaar.

One further example of your stance; you said,

”One of my friend who is ICMA (Finalist) worked out deferred tax calculation but his auditor rejected his working saying that IAS-12 cannot by applied in Pakistan due to unique taxation system.”

What is it? If auditor will ask you or your so-called friend to fall in a well, will you be doing it. Mashallah. A grave example of what I pointed out at the outset of this post about the attributes of your message. You don’t even know what you are saying.

I will wait for your comments on this post and will also look forward to the stuff you are saying is yet to come.

Regards,


KAMRAN.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Copied for record purpose and as a proof that what is moral and ethical character of person, who claims that he is a member of a committee formed by ICAP to analysis the code of ethics issued by IFAC. The language used in the post shows that the poster has no manners to talk.

[awaisaftab]

I accept that the names of audit firms and clients should not be disclosed by me in the above post.
Mr. Kamran says that I don’t know about the procedure of drafting of Code of Ethics and the procedures used by ICAP for quality assurance. He may be right but I am not a member of ICAP. I have been advising Mr. Kamran for many months not to comment on ICMAP not discuss deficiencies that in his limited view ICMAP has. But he always ignores my this humble request. But when I raised question about corruption in audit firms his response was too aggressive. I can use the same tone as kamran has used but I will not do so. This fact is also known by Mr. Kamran isi liay wo din ba din sher hote jar hay hain.
Mr. Kamran have several time adviced me in their last posts “Apni chonch band rakho” . I cannot use such language which suits to illiterate persons but I would like to advice him kindly don’t interfere in future in Threads relating to ICMAP he may say that he does it all in good faith but keep in mind that their comments are not liked by the students and members of ICMAP (if any person has doubt in this regard he can go through all the post only on this thread). The reasons are obvious at many places he has given some negative comments about ICMAP. As I don’t know about many things relating to ICAP Mr. Kamran also does not know about many facts relating to ICMAP.


I want to quote the comments of Mr. Tariq Sohail which he posted on February 10, 2010.


<i>Mr. Kamran,

Without going into long post I again mentioning that nothing is new in your first post which needs specific concentration at ICMAP level & this was clearly understand by Mr. Awais due to experience of inside situation of ICMAP.

When I used word "Outside" I was speaking only in terms of inside of "ICMAP", and I am sure there is nothing hidden in my post which will say that you are oustider in any situation except ICMAP.

Cheers.

Regards. </i>

I know I am not a qualified CMA but Tariq is member of both ICMAP and IMA so it will be beneficial for Mr. Kamran that please do not pass any remarks about ICMAP in future.

If any student of ICAP writes the same post as I have written Mr. Kamran has not gone to such extent. The reasons are obvious I do not have any affiliation with ICAP so Mr. Kamran’s action was too aggressive. It also happened with others when he mentions shortcommings of ICMAP and pass negative comments about ICMAP.

<b>If Mr. Kamran gives me assurance that he will not pass any comments about ICMAP then I am ready to delete my above post. </b>

I want to mention here that it was my policy that not to pass any comments about institute with which I have no affiliation. In past I mentioned it hundreds of times.But Mr. Kamran always says that forum rules do not prevent him passing any comments about ICMAP and discussing matters relating to the institute.

If we unanimously agreed upon the rule that we will not pass any comments, both positive and negative , will not give suggestions and recommendation about each other’s institute then it will be a good gesture and will bring harmony at the forum.

@Great Khan

I alway show respect to elders, but sir I find some contradictions in your views. Now you are saying that you are like my elder brother but it is very difficult for me to forget what you have said about me on the thread "Is Recession Really Here" but I will try.


This is my last post at this thread

[kamranACA]

(CMA friends I apologize for using any indecent words in this post from you at large; rest assured this post is only meant for the man to whom it is addressed to; so no offense please)


Awais

We all know we don't have any obligation to follow what others have advised, yet, a number of times it has been told for your benefit that copying what others are doing does not suit you. You again did so by copying my post for record purpose. I know you will not understand it. Tumhain lagta hai main yeh post delete kar doon gaa? Kabhi tu brain use kia karo. I was under moral obligation to GreatKhans, and he has not asked me to do so.

As far as ICMAP is concerned, have you bought out some "exclusive rights" to comment on it or to abstain others from doing so? My dear if this is the case, please let us know. Otherwise this forum is meant to discuss it and it is well within the rules of the forum. If you are ignorant (as I know), please contact the Admin and inquire it for clarity of your mind (which I know will never be cleared).

Yes, no body is stopping you from finding out deficiencies of ICAP as well. The whole of your last post is nothing but a similar grouse to which I invited the attention of GreatKhans. Come out of this bach-gana phase of complaining about others. Correct your-self and every one will be corrected automatically. Dont you feel people will laugh at you calling it a stupid act, as you have recently witnessed some one saying so?

Some of the people find nothing constructive in any thing. When you will make announcement of getting TAX AUDIT "RIGHTS" (and similar other things along with placing some indirect allegation on others in most of your posts) and if as a response your attention is drawn to a grave fact that although it is so good that you are on the board but why you have not been allocated a single tax audit by FBR even after giving such "rights". This attention was drawn along with mentioning reasons that why it has not happened. When this is done, you felt it odd and started posting indecent and personalized stuff.

You know ICMAP is lacking in this area i.e. training, practices and so much connected with it although it may be very good and advanced on the studies side. It is known to every one. We know CIMA has given prestigious exemptions to ICMAP for its quality on educational side. It's an honor for Pakistan as well. Still, if there is a lacking, it is there by all means. And this is not to criticize some thing, rather to draw the attention that do something on a certain front if you desire to get a goal. If some one feels it's nothing new then OKAY it would not be, but either go back to correct this "too old" and "well known" issue or stop your buddies don't write posts against CAs that they have done something wrong over the decades and are the major obstacle in your way to progress. I know definition of decency in your specific terms neither finds it indecent nor a matter of disgrace for your self.

You are saying that something indecent and ill-mannered has been done with you but have you ever thought the reasons or attributes? I don't mind if you use similar words, where I have done something wrong with you without any provocation. I have so many times witnessed your lack of knowledge and materially wrong view points but never commented upon or objected because I know you are a student and every one can commit mistake, since to err is human. So many CMAs are here, and no one came with such a cheap post as you brought in merely because CMAs were professionally and decently told a way out to establish good professional practices. Qualified CMAs are presumably decent and do understand the intent behind a post. They knew that it was by no means for an offense. Your problem is that, you are on some so-called Managerial post without having the required qualification. You feel so many deficiencies and complexes and just to seek a bit of elegance or jhooti prominence you try to poke your nose on every matter even where you are totally blank about the facts and realities. You are free to poke such nose but you know it makes people laugh when you are empty and blank as Spectrum has discussed about some specific dabba (you see these were not my words about you.

This is simply a psychological analysis of your confused personality. I know here I am getting personal which I had never been even when you committed confident blunders and even when after committing such confident blunders you tried so much to stick on them. However, now I am bound to show you your personality gap so that if you take it positively, you may improve yourself in future. I have least hopes about yourself, although. I advise you to clear your mind from prejudices and look forward to a very open and large world. One day you will become what you are desiring and dreaming at this earliest pre-mature stage.

Contrary to your groundless allegations, I wonder if in that very post (to which you blindly responded) I defamed CMAs by mentioning their names and calling into question what they personally are doing at their jobs or by opening of my chonch where nothing established thing is being discussed on any ones personal level just to satisfy inner IBLEES (that is with every one including you and me). Did I? Do you feel if I wish to do it, then its some issue? I believe it is indecent and non-professional harkat whoever has done so. Do you feel it cannot be done? Do you realize what is cheap and what is not? Can you make out a difference?

My post was containing only suggestions; your comments explained how much complexed and inferior you personally feel about yourself as you either are getting personalized in response to simple suggestions or wishing every one not to comment on you or ICMAP or CMAs however decent it may be. Is not it a renowned professional apex body that can be accessed, studied, analyzed by every one? The only thing is limit of decency in doing such things; let me know where decency was absent in my post which prompted you to spread out non-sense of using personal names of persons and firms and companies etc. Is it a doll of some roothi hui baby girl that no one should even see it or touch it? Are you following some approach of TALIBAAN of disconnecting with every one and creating a new world of your own on separate island of Antarctica? Is discussing this all tantamount to discuss some taboo? If yes, then why? I believe qualified CMAs dont think this way. So, try to get qualified first of all, then you may succeed parting with the gap.

Dont you feel you have totally failed to reply even a single point where I explained the situation to invite your mind to see the facts, be it Code of Ethics, Code of Corporate Governance, Responsibility of preparation of financials, Hospitality, or whatever? Why you dont dare to come up with further comments on your stupid and slanderous questions except the repeated grouses about VIP treatment, free vehicles and mix vegetables etc which make you to feel deprived of some thing. Again personality complex!

At the end I must draw your attention, that despite your crossing all limits of getting personal with people who are much senior and better than you in all respects, I (except this post)only questioned your mindset, confused thought, lack of knowledge etc. I did not disgrace you at the level you deserved. I still kept your regard just to preserve the decorum of the forum and keeping in view my difference with you. If you will not stop doing non-sense, you will continually get similar responses. You are so immature that at once you jumped and agreed with a member not to indulge in Behas; yet could not hold your tongue and continued sticking with your empty minded allegations. You have mentioned that last post was your last on this thread; yet I know you cannot feel relaxed without getting some further clarity.

Last caution, never again try to get frank with me or advise me like a BUQRAT on any thing at this forum. Believe in having the similar response whenever you cross limits at personalized level or have posted any thing within the definition of CONFIDENT BLUNDER. And stop e-mailing other members when something falls back on you. Face the outcome of what you have done. Meri jaan bachaao, Meri jaan bachaao cheekhna chore do. Grow up now. Dont ask others for saving your skin. I told you, you have eliminated all the vacuum of mutual respect and honor.

I am not writing anything because I feel you are within some so called limits. I know you cross all the limits first and then come to realize what you have done and why you are paying back. Do cross further limits if you feel like doing so and you will see how you will be responded. I know and inside my heart feel guilt on writing this. But for you it is imperative.

If you are really sincere with yourself then try to fortify your knowledge and qualify your exams. You have some very crucial thing missing in your life. Dont waste your energies in non-productive debate of which you are not even a least part.


Friends,

Is post main kuch zyada ho gaya hai; Had it been some good time I would have apologized for using personalized words in this post but the man has eliminated that vacuum. Let the vacuum be created, things may come to right place.

Regards,


KAMRAN.

[Greatkhans]

Kamran,

Now you discern why I said in my prior post that you should not experience any culpability. I knew that what was to unfurl. Thanks for acknowledging my moral debt. I could have exercised my moral influence over you but not over that other party. And in this scenario, it would have been iniquitous to impede one party and consent other one. Hope you comprehend between the lines.

Regards,

GREAT KHAN

[kamranACA]

Definitely GreatKhans!


Regards,

[Schuaeb]

Kamran sb, I won't go into the details here, but only will call whatever you did as UNPROPORTIONATE REACTION

[yasir_live]

<font size="1"><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />Definitely GreatKhans!


Regards,

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="size1">

The Shortest Ever Reply post by KamranACA.
Really Sorry for Intruption.

Regards.

[kamranACA]

Shoaib

I already mentioned that I have all the regard for my brothers and reasonable people. You are not an exception. So, your comment is well taken.

Regards,

[june23am]

assalamualikum everyone, i can see everyone is doing good. want to share something specially with sir kamran, i do remember we had a chat about being professional about guiding about doing something free of cost just to make things better for strugling students, i said i cannot see anything not even the basic knowledge..with all your respect you said in pakistan you have to pay even to breath you dont have "time" to stay on top in a way i was asking about. but from that day i m seeing ppl in here care about being best, i being no one i realy mean it no one feel bad to see it that way.when one can put his or her energy in this way (the way you are defeating each other) than why not for what i asked you about? why not?
well i want to mention an person i idealized named "Putra". Putra is NOT an accounting professor; he is practitioner, fellow accountants and managers.

Putra has ever been
a bookkeeper for two small businesses [just after graduation of his accounting bachelor degree]. Putra help the business owners to figure where their monies come from, where it goes and what their bottom line [profit/loss] for the period.
an auditor for a small [and nice] accounting firm, until he found himself bored in struggling with financial reporting without knowing what really behind the numbers are. So he decided to quit from auditing world to put his arms and legs into dirty works of company financial flows from scratch again.
financial analyst for one company. He analyzes company financial performance across the operations since the beginning till the end of the financial cycle.
Finance and Accounting manager for three medium enterprises for 8.6 years. He helped business owner to manage day-to-day finance and accounting roles, making sure their customers pay the companies on time, having enough cash to fund all activities, tax filing, keeping their financial record fully compliance with the accounting standards and pay company's tax
a tax consultant [with his team] four five years. Putra helped tens of companies and persons who struggling with taxations. From tax planning, getting tax refund, and litigations.
Putra is formerly a controller for a corporation and a manufacturer since 8 years ago.

From topics he writes, you can see that; obviously, Putra love to focus his energy to go insight of the company day-to-day operation to figure out, spot, uncover and fix financial problems of some specific areas of company's, linking company budget into performance analysis to deliver the maximum value to the shareholders, developing financial and accounting procedures and policy, or even re-routing the business flow to the most effective ways to generate maximum gain [profit] for the company. Putra love to go round the factory just to find a better procurement and [operation] way for the company, watching people's works, taking notes, analyzing and discussing what he found with his fellow managers.

<b>Why Is Putra Available On a Blog?Remembering how much energy he put, how many time he spent to gain his knowledge and position now, he realizes; it is not easy for starters and junior to get and gather all the knowledge; tricks; and best practices in short time to advance their positions. But they can watch and learn or even steal putra's tricks from words he discuss through his blog...</b>

howz that sir? dont you think he is a fool or something? i mean all he care about guiding his country fellows? well you are respectable for me i admit i m no one when i look at you in professionalism, but i still got this issue this complain.

[kamranACA]

Dear

There was a time when PTV2 was on-aired. It had prgarms on tractors, generators and computers etc. It used to start its program (by anchors) like;

"Tu naazreen yeh tractor hai."

"Iss kay chaar wheel hotay hain"

"Iss ka aik steering bhi hota hai"

"Banda iss kay ooper beth-ta hai"

"Kabhi banda iss kay neechay bhi aa jata hai"

Etc. Etc.

With due appoligies, if you feel doing this has ever added value or will bring any revolution, then you need to re-assess the objectives and goals of what you are wishing to do.

By the way, I have attended a video of your audio-lectures.

PTV-2 wohin say yaad aya.

No offense please.


Regards,