Mockery of Professionalism

[Bricks]

My dear chartered accountants and those in the making, I am not a chartered accountant, I am a businessman in fact. However I have friends in your profession and some acquaintences who are still slogging there. what I have observed I am sharing.

These firms, (and they have the balls to call themselves professional), treat their people literally like slaves... read again SLAVES. People work like donkeys most part of the year coming late, not giving two hoots to their family. To them, there is no such thing as home, family, wife and kids.

They have to get married to the firm and practically live their for most part. What kind of lousy culture is this? where in the world people in a professional firm go to work at 10 am or later and sit there till late at night sometimes even for whole night when the work hours are 9-5 or 9-530? This is a big joke and mockery.

Then there is this particular firm and I am absolutely amused! It is considered as one of the biggest in the field. The cruelest joke is that one of the senior partners in the firm has actually written book on time management and proudly gives lectures here and there on time management whereas in that very so called professional firm people are working like donkeys. Its like the partners or management operate these as prisons.

In the same firm, i heard that senior partners, including Mr. Time Management, have strong religious bend.... what a lie and what a mockery. Does Islam ask men to forget their family and work for 18-20 hours a day for most part of the year? Does Islam allow that people just dont give damn to what their family goes through without them?

Its pathetic and one feels like spitting on this culture which is rampant in these firms. My appeal to all not to join this profession and not work in firms which operate like prisons and treat staff as slaves.

I also pity those boys who take pride in working for these disgusting firms thus forgetting their parents, their home, their family life altogether. If one is working till late at night, obviously then there will neither be time nor energy for family. This is against the teachings of Islam and I am amazed people who profess to be Islamic minded actually indulge in such practices.

This is mockery of professionalism and such firms are a blotch on the word professional.

Bricks

[Pracs]

You are definately not privy to the amount of hours professionals, (lawyers and accountnats) working for the Big4 and Magic circle law firms put in in the US. I am not saying that's the right thing to do, but that is what happens all over the world, it is not peculiar to Pakistan only

[khuldun]

Kaisay businessman ho bhai jo aap ke pass itna time hai... without putting in effort, time and sacrifices you cant reach the top! Besides dont the employees in MNCs and other big group comapnies not feel the same way. I have been on the audit of a bank recently and our maximum late sitting there was 11. But they employees there used to sit till 2 in the morning! Our profession is tough, but then thats why our degree has some value. Becuase everyone knows we have had some serious ass kicking and by the time we get out of the firm, we are in the position to kick ass! I like the prospect D

[Sarfaraz]

Aslam u aliakum

Dear Brick

Read Punjabi?

O PA G DIL KHUSH KAR DITTA A TUSSI
MAIN KIA BALLAY BAI BALLAY

keep it up coz hum to bol nahi saktay

as slaves are not allowed to do so ..

anyhow best of luck .....

INSHALLAH main apni firm main actually time manage kar k dikhaon ga ...

[msc286]

Late working is becoming a norm everywhere as is not restricted to the CA firms only. Do you know even the staff at a very modest general store works late night let alone the companies and mediocre businesses.

[kamranACA]

Dears,

The point raised by Bricks is valid, whatever we say to hide our heads in the sand, but restricting this allegation to CAs only is illogical and totally wrong.

This late sitting and enormous working is very common all over the world. It is not simply restrcited to Pakistan only.

Further, it is not restrcited to CAs only. To whom we can call the professionals? Let's for the moment forget the CAs. Should the doctors be called professionals? Yes, off course. All of us know how long doctors work. They work like machines in tripple shifts. I do not like to use harsh words like "Donkey" "spitting" etc but the reality is reality.

Bricks,

As said above, it is not confined to CAs only. It could be seen in all professions. For instance, you claimed to be a businessman. Who are the big businessmen in Pakistan? I know so many and I never saw a single person out of all those, who works simply for 8 hours. Can you point out any big three names of Pakistani businessmen who work only 8 hours a day and then go to their homes or golf clubs? This would be difficult, though not impossible.

I have once before pointed out that we are struggling for bread and butter. We are not so much inclined to research and improvement/betterment of general mankind. It should also be a point of our agenda of life. Yes, earning and struggling for earning are good things and lead to self suficiency and over all economic development and improved per capita income levels. We cannot deny it.

This is not only AFF which is doing this all. Every person who really knows something and who wants to establish his ownself and his family has to do it. One point should be kept in mind. I am not talking about any one specifically. But normally in so many families, specially in poor or developing areas, so many people depend upon very few people financially. And the dependable guys have to work so much for accomodating the dependent ones. This is also one of the big reasons for running behind the money.

Its rightly pointed out by Mr. Mahmood that even the guys working on stores are doing it for the late nights.

In my view, there is no way out to this situation. So much has to be changed for altering the current snap.

It would be appreciable, if we start correcting from our ownselves as Mr. Sarfraz has planned out. This way it might be corrected in the coming years. Otherwise, no one would be out of this mockery.

Best regards,

Kamran.

[alishan]

BRICKS is right but he should also consider the benefits one can get after spending time in such environment. I mean in terms of salary & career growth opportunities.

[Imran]

Dear Brick
Your topic is a bit different from other posts though there are some realities in it just like late sittings, hard work with little renumeration but dont you have an idea about the prestige of a Chartered Accountant and scope of this profession. As it is understood to achieve some thing you have to sacrify some other thing. Better the achievement greater will be sacrify. Its understood that there is a lot of hard work as you quoted prison much struggle and a great exploitation in these firms but once you get through these articles and quality then you will get your fruit. Your rest of life is much comfortable. You know that there are only about 4000 Chartered Accountants in Pakistan. If this profession be so easy there might be 4000000 CA as like Doctors and Engineers. These are all those people who have faced all the hurdles as mentioned by you. If you will see the enterance and exit in this profession you will come to know that the quit ratio from the profession is more then 70%. Those who cant face they quit. So in short there is a big struggle and much tough time in this profession but its much fruitfull once you become a CA
Regards
Imran

[abbasifaizan]

oh yes very correctly said,,, its all rubbish that ppl think they cud work all day and night with their energies on their top and working effectively and efficiently to take themselves to top of the profession. i strongly condemn the exploitation of human resources that is inhibited by the BIG 1 firm.

[XBRL]

Even though i agree with brick regarding late sitting culture is not good which is prevelant for as he said SLAVES and i transalate it as audit students, however i wonder y people come in this forum juss for the sake of increasing the number of their post.

Let me clarify that only 2-3% of CA article students may have a married life. Yea its true. The only suffering is the studies. Thats it.

To further clarify, what i know about big 4-5 firms in Pakistan, they are retaining more CAs in their firm as a qualified staff. They are paying them good salaries thus i have seen much less load on existing students who are supported by assistant managers which culture was missing few years back. A young professional CA for the sake of his own betterment is expected to work for long hours.

I still feel that ICAP should make it mandatory for firms to allow relaxed timings for students who have to study on tutions per module in 3-4 years of training.

I have heard that a lot of reforms r coming into this system, including the merger of small practices and recognition of article training in big 3 firms of Pakistan by ICAEW which afterwards be granted to pratices providing better training opputtunities for students. However i can not confirm the news

Rgards

[Ahson Tariq]

A few simple changes in the Institute's training regulations can help bring a positive change in this area

1. Overtime policy. (overtime hours x 20% of ICAP's TR presribed chargable rates for CA Firms based on designation of trainee.)

2. The hours spent during late sittings should be counted as extra working days and should be counted while calculating the trainees' mandatory training period

3. A firm with aggregate trainees overtime exceeding 50% of aggregate normal working time should be reprimanded by the Institute.

It is the Institute's responsibility to safeguard the interests of audit trainees.

|| My two cents ||

[Ahson Tariq]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bricks</i>
<br />My dear chartered accountants and those in the making, I am not a chartered accountant, I am a businessman in fact. However I have friends in your profession and some acquaintences who are still slogging there. what I have observed I am sharing.

These firms, (and they have the balls to call themselves professional), treat their people literally like slaves... read again SLAVES. People work like donkeys most part of the year coming late, not giving two hoots to their family. To them, there is no such thing as home, family, wife and kids.

They have to get married to the firm and practically live their for most part. What kind of lousy culture is this? where in the world people in a professional firm go to work at 10 am or later and sit there till late at night sometimes even for whole night when the work hours are 9-5 or 9-530? This is a big joke and mockery.

Then there is this particular firm and I am absolutely amused! It is considered as one of the biggest in the field. The cruelest joke is that one of the senior partners in the firm has actually written book on time management and proudly gives lectures here and there on time management whereas in that very so called professional firm people are working like donkeys. Its like the partners or management operate these as prisons.

In the same firm, i heard that senior partners, including Mr. Time Management, have strong religious bend.... what a lie and what a mockery. Does Islam ask men to forget their family and work for 18-20 hours a day for most part of the year? Does Islam allow that people just dont give damn to what their family goes through without them?

Its pathetic and one feels like spitting on this culture which is rampant in these firms. My appeal to all not to join this profession and not work in firms which operate like prisons and treat staff as slaves.

I also pity those boys who take pride in working for these disgusting firms thus forgetting their parents, their home, their family life altogether. If one is working till late at night, obviously then there will neither be time nor energy for family. This is against the teachings of Islam and I am amazed people who profess to be Islamic minded actually indulge in such practices.

This is mockery of professionalism and such firms are a blotch on the word professional.

Bricks
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<font size="2">One more thing.

It so happens that I have had the pleasure of doing my articleship from the same firm (Sidat Hyder) and I would like to share my experience and observation(s) with you all.

1. The firm's senior-most partners' attitude towards late sitting was a negative one, in general. However, in rare circumstances, beyond our control, the team members had to do a bit of late sittings sometimes, in order to meet targets.

2. Targets were set at the beginning of each assignment. We used to have an Audit Planning Document with key tentative dates. It used to be the responsibility of the Job Incharges, who were audit trainees themselves (and not the partners or senior managers) to set targets. This shows that late sittings thus were mainly due to delays on part of the audit trainees themselves.

3. The four years training is meant to groom trainees into professionals. To teach them how to manage excessive levels of work within a specific time frame in a systematic and organized manner. Mr. Time Management (as you refer to him) used to teach us how to do the same level of work but within lesser period of time. Ofcourse we could not be moulded into thorough-bred professionals right from day one.

I'll try to explain this by giving you my example. The highest level of late sittings which I had to do was during my first and half year of articleship. During the next year, I was home mostly by 6.00-6.30pm. While during the last few months of my articleship, I was mostly home by 6pm. This does not mean that there were zero late sitting. There were indeed, but on rare occasions. This also does not mean that I was doing lesser quantity of work during those days. On the contrary, more work was being handled by me at multiple clients, but due to effective time management techniques learnt during the first few years, I was able to increase my productivity levels.

Think of it this way. Have you seen Sunahray Din ? Two years' of rigorous training at Kakul, away from your parents and family, produces a fine product in the form of a disciplined and well-trained Pakistani Army Jawan.

Likewise, four years of systematic training, produces a groomed professional, capable of absorbing pressure, without mentally breaking down and able to meet deadlines without over exerting himself/herself.

4. We all are humans and hence, by our very nature, imperfect. There will always be a few seniors in every firm who love late sittings. Maybe, they have some family issues, maybe something else. But it is upto the trainee to take the stand and not let late-sittings be imposed on him / her unnecessarily. The trainee needs to communicate in a clear manner that he / she cannot do late sittings continuously. I've had all kinds of seniors, managers, senior managers and partners with whom I worked during my articleship and trust me, it was an experience that I cherish to this very day. I learnt from each and every single person with whom I had the opportunity of working. Even from the computer operators to the senior most partners. Mostly, I learnt from them things that needed to be done to be successful in life. And from some, I learnt things that should not be done.

5. Speaking of 'religious-bend', 'lies', 'hypocrisy' - I think that the firm which your'e referring to is one of the better firms in the profession. I feel that generalizing, accusing someone and slandering him in public based on mere heresay is stupidity. And like the saying goes - foolishness is curable, but stupidity is immortal.

6. Today, based on the training provided to me by the people of this very institution (Sidat Hyder), I am able to manage a couple of businesses in a manner which allows me to be home by 5 pm. Yes, five in the evening. I work from 9-4, while my employees (now around 30) have strict instructions to leave the office by 5pm. Any late sitting s beyond 6pm must be reported to me in writing with explanation.

MORAL OF THE ABOVE LINES

Nobody can force anyone to become a donkey (or work like one) unless he/she shows such capacity and the willingness....AND.... no one can cure a donkey who goes on slandering others in public based on mere heresay.

|| Another two cents ||</font id="size2">

[Imran]

But i dont think so