Pakistan and Israel

Pracs · 08-27-2005, 01:52 AM

http//www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_26-8-2005_pg3_1

Comments invited. As a rather un orthodox approach to the whole matter, it is interesting to note that Pakistan and Israel are the only two countries carved out in the name of relegion ! Whereas as Muslims we are some what in awe of the Jews, but lets not forget that the first Islamic state in Medina came about after pacts with the Jewish community.

I think Relegion in itself is not reason enough to twiddel on the Jewish angle, since Christians and Jews are referred to in the same string in the Quran 'Yahood au Nasara'.

Members ?

"Allah does not change the state of people unless they change what is within themselves" Quran 1311

peshaweri · 08-27-2005, 04:35 AM

Despite public rhetoric, both countries share a common historical legacy and contours of state-building as both were primarily conceived as a homeland for religious-national minorities Israel for the Jews and Pakistan for the Muslims of the British India. While secular leadership led their nationalist struggle, before long religious elements gradually found it prudent to be part of the state that they vehemently opposed in the beginning. At regular intervals, Pakistani politicians have accused their political opponents of being Israeli or Zionist agents and anti-Israeli rhetoric has been an integral part of many election campaigns in Pakistan.
The death of Yasser Arafat and the lessening of Israeli-Palestinian violence offer an opportunity for Pakistan to revisit its wrong plocies and develop some sort of working relation ship with Israel.
Regrads
Wisal Ahmad

Yousafzai

peshaweri · 08-27-2005, 05:00 AM

Normalization should no longer a be taboo subject and should be widely discussed by the Pakistani media. The question of normalization should be when and not if. A comprehensive Middle East settlement, especially with the Palestinians, would significantly modify Pakistan's position.
Whenever Pakistan recognizes and establishes relations with Israel, it will not be the first Islamic country to do so. Since it has no direct disputes with Israel, Pakistan is not under any compulsion to seek a âcold peaceâ with Israel, and therefore has several options to choose from.

The Turkish model Pakistan can recognize Israel without establishing diplomatic relations immediately.
The Iranian model It can follow the precedent set by the Shah of Iran and recognize the Jewish state, but maintain its relationship under wraps.
The Jordanian model It can imitate the Jordanians and maintain close political as well as military relations with the Jewish state without granting any official recognition.
The Chinese model It can adopt the Chinese example and view military contacts as a means of promoting political relations.

Cheers
Wisal Ahmad

Yousafzai

CBPian · 08-28-2005, 03:59 AM

We do not need any models...
once and hopefully a true independent palestinian state is established based on 1967 borders and Jerusalem as its capital... we should not have any problem recognising israel.
It was never a problem of 'if' and it will never be.

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http//s4.invisionfree.com/AccountingWorld/

Pracs · 08-28-2005, 08:46 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by CBPian
 We do not need any models...
once and hopefully a true independent palestinian state is established based on 1967 borders and Jerusalem as its capital... we should not have any problem recognising israel.
It was never a problem of 'if' and it will never be.

===========================================
http//s4.invisionfree.com/AccountingWorld/
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't think that is ever going to happen, the Palestenian state would at best be the Gaza Strip and West Bank. The Israelis will not scumb to any more land for peace. Jerusalam can be at best a joint city between a consortium of countries with UN playing some kind of a role.

Unless the Arabs bring it to their mind to bulldoze into Israel from all sides and not stop until they reach AL AQSA..!!

peshaweri · 08-28-2005, 05:11 PM

Have a look at the following
MIDDLE EAST MAJORITY OF ISRAELIS SUPPORTS TOTAL PULLOUT
(AGI) - Jerusalem, Israel, Aug.26 - The majority of Israelis supports the pursuing of the pullout, including other settlements in the West Bank, to reach peace with the Palestinians. That's what a survey carried out by the most important Israeli paper, 'Yediot Aharanot', reveals 54 pct of the interviewed are convinced that "in order to resume peace talks" Israel must be ready for another pullout from settlements, aside the 25 ones evacuated so far in the Gaza Strip and northern West Bank (42 pct is against this idea); 68 pct supports the removal of outposts not authorised by the government. (AGI) - 261808 AGO 05.
The Israeli want peace does HAMMAS & Co. want Peace.
Regards
Wisal

Yousafzai

abdulmajid · 08-28-2005, 07:24 PM

Israel was created becasue Europeans, Americans, Russians (all of them) wanted to get rid of jews. Simply Because they were different and were all over the whole eeconomy. So they decided to give them a seperate country. This country could have been anywhere outside mailand Europe, in africa, in southern america anywhere.
Palestine was chosen for two reasons.
1. jews might not have been that much motivated for any other land.
2. Muslims were weak enough.
If muslim countries in the region become strong any time in future, then Israel will automatically evaporate.
then question arises, what muslims should do now?
answer, we should live today to fight tomorrow.
another thing, what should be the strategy of an individual muslim country regarding relations with powerful Israel.
answer, they should read childhood stories once more, with moral lessons like union is strength and 1 & 1 is equal to 11, and others like that. if a country want to have a solo flight, then others should boycott her. since individually muslim countries are weak and every one of them wants to have relations on its own (including, pakistan, indonesia, bangladesh and other notable countries who don't rely on saudi aid that much) so the muslim countries should act in unisome and start dialogue with western powers for acceptance of israel.

inta habieba omrie!! malikta omrie!!!

Pracs · 08-31-2005, 07:09 AM

Interestingly today I just Dr. Shaihd Masoud's talk show with Dr. Israr Ahmed and Justice (r) Javaid Iqbal. Apparently the Saudi King Abdullah had given a statement back in 2002 (when he was still the crown prince)that the Arabs were ready to accept Israel as a state if they retreated back to the pre 1966 territories (which means vaccating West bank and Gaza including Jerusalam).. I guess President Musharaf's stand i.e the official Pakistani stand should be in line with this.

peshaweri · 09-01-2005, 11:56 PM

Hi Guys
Have look at this.
http//www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/01/africa/web.0901israel.php
The foreign ministers of Israel and Pakistan, a Muslim country that has long taken a hard line against the Jewish state, met publicly for the first time Thursday, a diplomatic breakthrough that follows Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.

Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom hailed the meeting as ''historic'' and said that following the Gaza withdrawal it is ''the time for all of the Muslim and Arab countries to reconsider their relations with Israel.''

The meeting in Istanbul was at the initiative of Pakistan's president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf and Shalom said he hoped that it would eventually lead to full diplomatic relations with Pakistan.

''I am sure that this meeting will be followed by more meetings in the future,'' Shalom said. ''We hope that finally it will lead to full diplomatic relations with Pakistan as we would like it with all Muslim and Arab countries.''

Israel has diplomatic relations with only four Muslim countries â Turkey, Jordan, Egypt and Mauritania.

Pakistani Foreign Minister Khursheed Kasuri said that ''Pakistan attaches great importance to Israel ending its occupation of Gaza. Pakistan has therefore decided to engage Israel.''

A Pakistani Foreign Ministry official in Islamabad said full diplomatic relations weren't imminent adding that the meeting in Turkey would help gauge public reaction in Pakistan.

''They are moving slowly. ... First they want to end the taboo'' of discussing relations with Israel, said the official. He spoke on condition of anonymity as he wasn't authorized to comment to journalists.

The meeting was held at the Fours Seasons Hotel, a former Ottoman prison, not far from Topkapi Palace. Security was extremely tight with Turkish and Israeli security officials searching bags and even disassembling photographers' cameras.

Turkey, an overwhelmingly Muslim country that has good relations with Israel, was chosen as a neutral venue. Pakistan has no diplomatic relations with Israel.

Shalom and Kasuri informally met Wednesday night at a dinner in Istanbul, Israeli officials said.

Musharraf, a key U.S. ally in the Indian subcontinent, has been gradually moving toward conciliation with Israel, despite the influence of a powerful Islamic radical party in Pakistan.

The Pakistani president accepted an invitation to address an interfaith conference this month organized by the Council for World Jewry while he is in New York to attend the U.N. General Assembly.

The Arabic-language television station al-Jazeera has quoted Musharraf as calling Sharon a ''great soldier and courageous leader'' after announcing his plan to end Israel's occupation of Gaza. Pakistan says Israel must abandon all other territory it captured in the 1967 Mideast war and clear the way for an independent Palestinian state.

Sporadic articles in the Pakistani press also have appeared in recent years urging a reassessment of Pakistan's refusal to consider diplomatic relations with Israel.

Zalman Shoval, a former Israeli ambassador to Washington and a foreign policy adviser to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, said Israel would welcome relations with Islamabad, and has been quietly working toward that goal.

''There have been contacts on different levels with Pakistani officials for several years,'' Shoval told The Associated Press. ''Even I myself had contacts with the Pakistani ambassador during my tenure in Washington and I always heard the willingness and desire to establish relations at the right moment,'' he said.

''Israel is of course interested in widening its official diplomatic relations with as many countries as possible and especially Muslim countries.''

Regards
Wisal Ahmad

Yousafzai

peshaweri · 09-02-2005, 12:00 AM

Guys,
It had the clearnce from people concerned. According to Reuters New Agency.
ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah were informed in advance of Pakistan's plans to hold talks with Israel and welcomed the move, Pakistan's Foreign Ministry said on Thursday.
In a statement read by Foreign Secretary Riaz Mohammad Khan after foreign ministers of Pakistan and Israel met earlier in the day in Istanbul, Pakistan reiterated its position that an independent Palestinian state should be established with Jerusalem as its capital.
It said President Pervez Musharraf informed the Saudi monarch and Palestinian leader of plans for the meeting in Istanbul on Tuesday, and added "The two leaders welcomed the step as a helpful initiative."

Cheers
Wisal Ahmad

Yousafzai

Pracs · 09-02-2005, 05:47 AM

Engaging Israel and going on for full diplomatic ties are two different things. I hope the Govt. of Pakistan remembers what the country's first Prime Minister said to a room full of American Jews more than fifty years ago, when faced with a similar question (with all offers of money)''We do not sell our souls''.

Dr. Iqbal called it ''West's Illegitimate child'', so the question is are the parents married now ??

ibrishah · 09-03-2005, 12:35 AM

well whats wrong with talking Israel!Are we the only Champions of Islamic world? Round about the majority of muslim countries have relations with Israel and let me remind u that Palastine is having close relations with India our Enemy. Let me also remind u that Jordon,Egypt,Syria and other Arab countries havent close their chapter of friendship or relations with India by reason being occupying Kashmir for last 58 years SO Y WE? Is the question?!

Ibri

abdulmajid · 09-03-2005, 03:01 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ibrishah
 well whats wrong with talking Israel!Are we the only Champions of Islamic world? Round about the majority of muslim countries have relations with Israel and let me remind u that Palastine is having close relations with India our Enemy. Let me also remind u that Jordon,Egypt,Syria and other Arab countries havent close their chapter of friendship or relations with India by reason being occupying Kashmir for last 58 years SO Y WE? Is the question?!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
hunm, you seems to be a smart fella. too many smart fellas around, i believe.

inta habieba omrie!! malikta omrie!!!

Pracs · 09-04-2005, 09:00 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ibrishah
 well whats wrong with talking Israel!Are we the only Champions of Islamic world? Round about the majority of muslim countries have relations with Israel and let me remind u that Palastine is having close relations with India our Enemy. Let me also remind u that Jordon,Egypt,Syria and other Arab countries havent close their chapter of friendship or relations with India by reason being occupying Kashmir for last 58 years SO Y WE? Is the question?!

Ibri
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

By virtue of our ideology, we are the Champions of the Islamic World ! What we do is watched out by all other countries, that is why our establishing relations with Israel is so important for the Israeli state ! it was 58 years ago and it is still now. I am not advocating of never accepting Israel, but that it should be within our frame of ideology. Re Israel's pull out from the pre 1967 territories (Gaza, West Bank and Jerusalam).

We are not Egypt (pressed for the Sinai , Israel occupying it) or Jordan (weak and pressed with internal strife by the Palestenian population) or some other small country.

"Allah does not change the state of people unless they change what is within themselves" Quran 1311

peshaweri · 09-05-2005, 01:24 AM

Hi Guys
Have a look at the following link and you will find that some members here (Members in accountancy forum) are from some other World. Why you does not accept the Ground Realities.
http//www.jang.com.pk/thenews/vf/index.html

Regards
Wisal Ahmad

Yousafzai