01-29-2010, 08:01 PM
Dears (specially Shakil)
Where did I say that students/trainees don't need proper training. I always stressed well structured training should be provided to the students. In-house training sessions either formal or informal at the level of Managers or Directors or Partners are crucial for this purpose. Firms should ideally chalk out an annual plan for this purpose beforehand and disseminate such information through notice board so that all locally present trainees must attend it at least on rotational basis.
If this is not possible (specially at SMPs), students, as a compulsion, should be sent to all professional seminars either arranged by ICAP or otherwise and in all informational conferences and workshops. The costs should be borne by firms. This is what in which I at my personal level believe. ICAP has to play a very effective role in streamlining this process and I believe it has been concentrating so much on this area AT LEAST since the recent past. ICAP may have to take the lead and do some out of the box planning and implementation of rules and procedures for students' growth. I, as a member, have always forwarded such suggestions to ICAP. I will share some of my recently communicated suggestions to ICAP pursuant to the survey being done.
Your point is well noted and appreciated. Every one should be cognizant of his legal, social and moral responsibilities and fair treatment must be given at each level specially when some one is in career building and studying/learning process. Personally I believe that people should be dealt with on pure merit basis. The aspiring students who have lesser means should be helped in studies and on other fronts to the maximum possible limit.
Firms should properly plan the training of each student and must rotate him/her on various sectors, clients, areas of interests and internal departments. There are no two opinions. I know the students who worked (even in Big 4) all the articles on a single client or on a single sector or on quite a few clients. This used to happen in advisory and consultancy departments as well as tax department of such firms. After implementation of ICAP's Training Regulations some structure of training has been improved. Still, it needs to be concentrated upon on continuous basis and I hope ICAP is not in any ignorance. It is taking all the required initiatives which have improved the profession, studies, opportunities, demand and every thing. We look forward to further well doings and hope for it.
Students/trainees, at their own, should be friendly with each other, co-operate on all educational, professional, personal and social aspects and create reasons to crop up best relations and environment. You must know that every one has a role in building an environment. If some seniors (who are also students) are asserting pressures on juniors without any logic and/or deal indecently, it has nothing to do with management.
The juniors have to become seniors and seniors get transformed into supervisory and managerial roles and managers ultimately are taken as directors/partners (mostly within a short span of time from one phase to the other). Every one actually knows what are the issues at each level of heirarchy, so they can, through a process take corrective measures over the time. If a junior was having issues when he was junior but simply forgot when he became senior or manager or even partner while continuing in same firm, then no one should expect improvement of any thing. I have seen practical examples of changed standards of such so-called juniors who were concerned about "Chhoti Chhoti Khushiaan" when they were juniors but simply forgot when they turned up to be seniors or managers or otherwise. This is a very long story and the needed is to correct your own-self at whatever level you are; either junior, senior, manager, or director or partner.
The responsibility of improving the culture and environment rests with all and let me tell you with fullest of my belief that people can change the environment over the period if they don't give up and if they have commitment and positive true intention of doing so.
As far as my comments about "student friendly" are concerned these do not mean ill-treating students. These never mean that they should not be given due exam leaves or should not be allowed to have a decent fun when they are free. Of course I had been a junior and have witnessed all the phases personally.
You can't just believe how nice was my articles tenure. We made memorable association with others that will go with us life time, we were raised in a sense that now the people of highest profile are in our friendship circle, we learnt the facets of life which we might have not learnt had we not been doing this CA training, we got progress over the time, we got responsibilities, we faced pressures, we underwent good and bad phases, we also faced criticism, we also faced even punishments for our faults, still, we never felt down, we were looking to the whole world as it was under our control. These were the real feelings which as aspirant trainees we carried. I believe I am not over portraying anything here.
I never had any real grouse for any of my articles specific past. I believe my articles tenure was perhaps the finest, happiest, and the most effective tenure in my whole life.
From "tougher" I mean and believe hard work, pressure taking, LATE SITTING (if justified), putting in extra efforts, believing in people once they have proved their-selves, if need arises taking the matter seriously and condemning the students at fault, trying to improve the faulty/ignorant/lazy/indifferent trainees through various measures etc.
â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦.Let me explain that if an environment where late coming to office, laziness, slackness, inefficiency, wasting time, making false arguments, relaxed targets, least pressures, least reviews, least accountability and other such tantrums are in vogue; and this whole set of conditions is called âstudent friendlyâ then this is totally incorrect term being usedâ¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦.
Dear, believe you me one cannot become a diamond from carbon unless he faces this severe training and its attributes. I know it hurts sometimes, but the benefits which it provides make your experience too cherishing.
I also feel that students at their must try to improve their-selves. The things which I will tell you are also "chhoti chhoti" but leave great impact on one's personality and should therefore be capitalized upon. Unfortunately most of new comers ddon't take care about these things. These include, correcting language abilities, improving written or spoken presentation skill, improving manners to deal with seniors / juniors / clients and every one as per required professional and social standards and merit, improving dressing sense with the passage of time at least for crucial official reasons, improving sense of choosing and using perfumes / shoes / neckties and everything, improving sense of eating and drinking at social gatherings and with seniors and clients (this even includes appropriate usage of utensils which most of new students don't realize at all), improve sense of how to share others' khushiaan and happiness and achievement, and to know how decently greet the others and how effectively criticize the others and improve or correct on so many other aspects which we grossly ignore considering immaterial.
Let me tell you these all count when you are perceived by others as a professional. Although these do not contribute in knowledge building, but do a lot in personality building. Mind it CA students don't have to be scientists researching at back doors having no connection with the others. You guys have to become professionals and have to deal a large world and have to create a position for your own-self on the biggest scenery. So, one must start from these basic things.
Believe me this all is what where you don't need the assistance from your firms. Need assessment, observation and motivation are the required elements. This all will eventually enhance your confidence, trust in your self, peoplesâ appreciation and liking from others.
Let me tell you, the majority of students never take into account these basic factors which can over the period make them good personalities. They must be knowing where they are wrong. I believe these aspects are not like the difficulties of the working paper files. So, every one should attempt to make his-self the best.
Further to it, comes the training aspects where I have already given my views and your educational aspects on which you have the prime responsibility. Firms are responsible for providing you necessary platform where you can qualify the exams swiftly. Still, the major contribution has to be of your own-self. Students must try their best to qualify as soon as possible along with developing their-selves on training as well as generalized areas.
So while having complaints with firms you must also try to find out what is solely your own responsibility and whether or not you are fulfilling it with true spirit of developing a professional in yourself. Being an insider, I can enlist an un-ending detail of the shorcomings and inefficiencies at the part of students. It does not mean I am wishing to or inclided to do so or I don't accede to the basic things you discussed in your post; rather I mean to convey that complaining is easier than doing some thing at our own. So, we all should take a start form our-selves and do right things which can lead to our better career. This may make the others to realize what they should also do.
I know I have written too much but I felt like writing it for sharing some basic ideas.
I hereunder paste some of the paragraphs of my recent communication to ICAP for your interest and for looking at some new ideas
QUOTE
Question Are the newly qualified people lacking in technical skills? What suggestions you have in this regard
ANSWER
They don't lack technical skills in fact, provided such skills have been developed and polished at a quality practice base. The only issue is that they don't have experience of other side of the table. This is not out of perception but some times people feel it as some deficiency at the part of qualification or exposure itself. This needs to be explained by ICAP using some easy to understand methodology through its communications and seminars.
In my above response I mentioned "partially". This "partially" transforms to "fully" in a limited time period. If a well structured training has been imparted, the newly qualified accountants can grasp the issues they lack in experience in a short span of time while sitting on the other side.
I believe ICAP should enhance the level of feedback from firms directly to ICAP on regular (say, annual or bi-annual) basis. I have a few suggestions which I share with you.
In my view a uniform / standardized performance evaluation criterion should be developed and implemented for all firms regardless of size and stature. Based upon such criterion, a checklist should be developed (with consensus with firms and students) and circulated by ICAP which the firms must fill-in and submit to ICAP for each of their student or for classes of the students on prescribed regular basis. Classes of the students may be categorized with reference to exams qualified to-date and the period of experience with the firm. However, the checklist must conclude the result of evaluation of each student separately. The firms should be encouraged to establish a dedicated function/department for carrying out this job regularly.
ICAP should develop a system of carefully studying and analyzing the checklists submitted by the firms. Wherever necessary, communications should be made to inquire odd results of performance evaluation submitted by the firms both with the firm and the student. The students having unsatisfactory results should be inquired of the problems and issues being faced that are creating obstacles for grooming in the training environment. Such problems may be faced either on educational side or on the training aspects. ICAP should discussed with the firms the findings regarding each studentâs problem areas be it on education aspect of training aspect and necessary guiding instructions should be issued to the student or the firm, as may be required. The students having poor evaluation results must be kept in loop by the ICAP on an on-going basis until the time they improve the deficiencies and get a better result in some subsequent evaluation.
The ICAPâs Training Regulations may be updated to include the above, if it is to be implemented. The performance evaluation process should be aligned with the Attendance and Training Record and Time sheets prescribed for allocation of training time and ensuring rotations of the student that has already been a part of the Training Regulations.
Apart from this, ICAP should structure some regular CPD activities for the trainee students of the firms without segregating big practices and SMPs, as is being done currently. Further, regular seminars should be arranged in all major cities to update the students on recent changes and developments and also on critical educational topics.
There should be developed an ongoing practice of inviting the students of other countries in the region on professional conferences and sending our delegations of students to other regional countries for participation in such conferences. This will enhance the confidence, communication and presentation skills and will create a sense of competition.
For doing this, students should be selected from each city of Pakistan. Small cities should be given preference to enhance the sense of participation and to encourage the aspiring students of such locations. Selection criteria should be developed by ICAP on qualitative basis that should be publicly disclosed for fairness of the selection activity. The students of small and medium practices should be encouraged and persuaded to join such activities.
You will appreciate that the Big firms do send the students on secondment which contributes positively. So, I believe ICAP should encourage SMP students and the students located at small cities of Pakistan for this purpose to create equal opportunities on the basis of merit. This will contribute increasing upcoming students and awareness about the profession in smaller cities as well.
Such activities should be carried out on the basis of a plan that should be framed on at least annual basis beforehand. Thorough dissemination of such annual plan should be made to firms and students so that every one knows the benefits and can do his best to become a part of the delegations. I believe currently students are being sent for foreign visit as delegates but the activity is meager and a selection criterion is unknown.
Efficient development environment, qualitative training guidelines and rules, well structured and updated syllabus, competitive and relevant study material development, developing the interpersonal and communication skills and close monitoring will enhance the quality of professionals immensely.
UNQUOTE
I hope this post will clarify the ambiguities regarding "nothing is student friendly".
Regrets are due for the length. I hope if some one will read it, he will be benefited.
Regards,
KAMRAN
Where did I say that students/trainees don't need proper training. I always stressed well structured training should be provided to the students. In-house training sessions either formal or informal at the level of Managers or Directors or Partners are crucial for this purpose. Firms should ideally chalk out an annual plan for this purpose beforehand and disseminate such information through notice board so that all locally present trainees must attend it at least on rotational basis.
If this is not possible (specially at SMPs), students, as a compulsion, should be sent to all professional seminars either arranged by ICAP or otherwise and in all informational conferences and workshops. The costs should be borne by firms. This is what in which I at my personal level believe. ICAP has to play a very effective role in streamlining this process and I believe it has been concentrating so much on this area AT LEAST since the recent past. ICAP may have to take the lead and do some out of the box planning and implementation of rules and procedures for students' growth. I, as a member, have always forwarded such suggestions to ICAP. I will share some of my recently communicated suggestions to ICAP pursuant to the survey being done.
Your point is well noted and appreciated. Every one should be cognizant of his legal, social and moral responsibilities and fair treatment must be given at each level specially when some one is in career building and studying/learning process. Personally I believe that people should be dealt with on pure merit basis. The aspiring students who have lesser means should be helped in studies and on other fronts to the maximum possible limit.
Firms should properly plan the training of each student and must rotate him/her on various sectors, clients, areas of interests and internal departments. There are no two opinions. I know the students who worked (even in Big 4) all the articles on a single client or on a single sector or on quite a few clients. This used to happen in advisory and consultancy departments as well as tax department of such firms. After implementation of ICAP's Training Regulations some structure of training has been improved. Still, it needs to be concentrated upon on continuous basis and I hope ICAP is not in any ignorance. It is taking all the required initiatives which have improved the profession, studies, opportunities, demand and every thing. We look forward to further well doings and hope for it.
Students/trainees, at their own, should be friendly with each other, co-operate on all educational, professional, personal and social aspects and create reasons to crop up best relations and environment. You must know that every one has a role in building an environment. If some seniors (who are also students) are asserting pressures on juniors without any logic and/or deal indecently, it has nothing to do with management.
The juniors have to become seniors and seniors get transformed into supervisory and managerial roles and managers ultimately are taken as directors/partners (mostly within a short span of time from one phase to the other). Every one actually knows what are the issues at each level of heirarchy, so they can, through a process take corrective measures over the time. If a junior was having issues when he was junior but simply forgot when he became senior or manager or even partner while continuing in same firm, then no one should expect improvement of any thing. I have seen practical examples of changed standards of such so-called juniors who were concerned about "Chhoti Chhoti Khushiaan" when they were juniors but simply forgot when they turned up to be seniors or managers or otherwise. This is a very long story and the needed is to correct your own-self at whatever level you are; either junior, senior, manager, or director or partner.
The responsibility of improving the culture and environment rests with all and let me tell you with fullest of my belief that people can change the environment over the period if they don't give up and if they have commitment and positive true intention of doing so.
As far as my comments about "student friendly" are concerned these do not mean ill-treating students. These never mean that they should not be given due exam leaves or should not be allowed to have a decent fun when they are free. Of course I had been a junior and have witnessed all the phases personally.
You can't just believe how nice was my articles tenure. We made memorable association with others that will go with us life time, we were raised in a sense that now the people of highest profile are in our friendship circle, we learnt the facets of life which we might have not learnt had we not been doing this CA training, we got progress over the time, we got responsibilities, we faced pressures, we underwent good and bad phases, we also faced criticism, we also faced even punishments for our faults, still, we never felt down, we were looking to the whole world as it was under our control. These were the real feelings which as aspirant trainees we carried. I believe I am not over portraying anything here.
I never had any real grouse for any of my articles specific past. I believe my articles tenure was perhaps the finest, happiest, and the most effective tenure in my whole life.
From "tougher" I mean and believe hard work, pressure taking, LATE SITTING (if justified), putting in extra efforts, believing in people once they have proved their-selves, if need arises taking the matter seriously and condemning the students at fault, trying to improve the faulty/ignorant/lazy/indifferent trainees through various measures etc.
â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦.Let me explain that if an environment where late coming to office, laziness, slackness, inefficiency, wasting time, making false arguments, relaxed targets, least pressures, least reviews, least accountability and other such tantrums are in vogue; and this whole set of conditions is called âstudent friendlyâ then this is totally incorrect term being usedâ¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦.
Dear, believe you me one cannot become a diamond from carbon unless he faces this severe training and its attributes. I know it hurts sometimes, but the benefits which it provides make your experience too cherishing.
I also feel that students at their must try to improve their-selves. The things which I will tell you are also "chhoti chhoti" but leave great impact on one's personality and should therefore be capitalized upon. Unfortunately most of new comers ddon't take care about these things. These include, correcting language abilities, improving written or spoken presentation skill, improving manners to deal with seniors / juniors / clients and every one as per required professional and social standards and merit, improving dressing sense with the passage of time at least for crucial official reasons, improving sense of choosing and using perfumes / shoes / neckties and everything, improving sense of eating and drinking at social gatherings and with seniors and clients (this even includes appropriate usage of utensils which most of new students don't realize at all), improve sense of how to share others' khushiaan and happiness and achievement, and to know how decently greet the others and how effectively criticize the others and improve or correct on so many other aspects which we grossly ignore considering immaterial.
Let me tell you these all count when you are perceived by others as a professional. Although these do not contribute in knowledge building, but do a lot in personality building. Mind it CA students don't have to be scientists researching at back doors having no connection with the others. You guys have to become professionals and have to deal a large world and have to create a position for your own-self on the biggest scenery. So, one must start from these basic things.
Believe me this all is what where you don't need the assistance from your firms. Need assessment, observation and motivation are the required elements. This all will eventually enhance your confidence, trust in your self, peoplesâ appreciation and liking from others.
Let me tell you, the majority of students never take into account these basic factors which can over the period make them good personalities. They must be knowing where they are wrong. I believe these aspects are not like the difficulties of the working paper files. So, every one should attempt to make his-self the best.
Further to it, comes the training aspects where I have already given my views and your educational aspects on which you have the prime responsibility. Firms are responsible for providing you necessary platform where you can qualify the exams swiftly. Still, the major contribution has to be of your own-self. Students must try their best to qualify as soon as possible along with developing their-selves on training as well as generalized areas.
So while having complaints with firms you must also try to find out what is solely your own responsibility and whether or not you are fulfilling it with true spirit of developing a professional in yourself. Being an insider, I can enlist an un-ending detail of the shorcomings and inefficiencies at the part of students. It does not mean I am wishing to or inclided to do so or I don't accede to the basic things you discussed in your post; rather I mean to convey that complaining is easier than doing some thing at our own. So, we all should take a start form our-selves and do right things which can lead to our better career. This may make the others to realize what they should also do.
I know I have written too much but I felt like writing it for sharing some basic ideas.
I hereunder paste some of the paragraphs of my recent communication to ICAP for your interest and for looking at some new ideas
QUOTE
Question Are the newly qualified people lacking in technical skills? What suggestions you have in this regard
ANSWER
They don't lack technical skills in fact, provided such skills have been developed and polished at a quality practice base. The only issue is that they don't have experience of other side of the table. This is not out of perception but some times people feel it as some deficiency at the part of qualification or exposure itself. This needs to be explained by ICAP using some easy to understand methodology through its communications and seminars.
In my above response I mentioned "partially". This "partially" transforms to "fully" in a limited time period. If a well structured training has been imparted, the newly qualified accountants can grasp the issues they lack in experience in a short span of time while sitting on the other side.
I believe ICAP should enhance the level of feedback from firms directly to ICAP on regular (say, annual or bi-annual) basis. I have a few suggestions which I share with you.
In my view a uniform / standardized performance evaluation criterion should be developed and implemented for all firms regardless of size and stature. Based upon such criterion, a checklist should be developed (with consensus with firms and students) and circulated by ICAP which the firms must fill-in and submit to ICAP for each of their student or for classes of the students on prescribed regular basis. Classes of the students may be categorized with reference to exams qualified to-date and the period of experience with the firm. However, the checklist must conclude the result of evaluation of each student separately. The firms should be encouraged to establish a dedicated function/department for carrying out this job regularly.
ICAP should develop a system of carefully studying and analyzing the checklists submitted by the firms. Wherever necessary, communications should be made to inquire odd results of performance evaluation submitted by the firms both with the firm and the student. The students having unsatisfactory results should be inquired of the problems and issues being faced that are creating obstacles for grooming in the training environment. Such problems may be faced either on educational side or on the training aspects. ICAP should discussed with the firms the findings regarding each studentâs problem areas be it on education aspect of training aspect and necessary guiding instructions should be issued to the student or the firm, as may be required. The students having poor evaluation results must be kept in loop by the ICAP on an on-going basis until the time they improve the deficiencies and get a better result in some subsequent evaluation.
The ICAPâs Training Regulations may be updated to include the above, if it is to be implemented. The performance evaluation process should be aligned with the Attendance and Training Record and Time sheets prescribed for allocation of training time and ensuring rotations of the student that has already been a part of the Training Regulations.
Apart from this, ICAP should structure some regular CPD activities for the trainee students of the firms without segregating big practices and SMPs, as is being done currently. Further, regular seminars should be arranged in all major cities to update the students on recent changes and developments and also on critical educational topics.
There should be developed an ongoing practice of inviting the students of other countries in the region on professional conferences and sending our delegations of students to other regional countries for participation in such conferences. This will enhance the confidence, communication and presentation skills and will create a sense of competition.
For doing this, students should be selected from each city of Pakistan. Small cities should be given preference to enhance the sense of participation and to encourage the aspiring students of such locations. Selection criteria should be developed by ICAP on qualitative basis that should be publicly disclosed for fairness of the selection activity. The students of small and medium practices should be encouraged and persuaded to join such activities.
You will appreciate that the Big firms do send the students on secondment which contributes positively. So, I believe ICAP should encourage SMP students and the students located at small cities of Pakistan for this purpose to create equal opportunities on the basis of merit. This will contribute increasing upcoming students and awareness about the profession in smaller cities as well.
Such activities should be carried out on the basis of a plan that should be framed on at least annual basis beforehand. Thorough dissemination of such annual plan should be made to firms and students so that every one knows the benefits and can do his best to become a part of the delegations. I believe currently students are being sent for foreign visit as delegates but the activity is meager and a selection criterion is unknown.
Efficient development environment, qualitative training guidelines and rules, well structured and updated syllabus, competitive and relevant study material development, developing the interpersonal and communication skills and close monitoring will enhance the quality of professionals immensely.
UNQUOTE
I hope this post will clarify the ambiguities regarding "nothing is student friendly".
Regrets are due for the length. I hope if some one will read it, he will be benefited.
Regards,
KAMRAN
