Seniors advice on current market situation

Ali.M · 02-24-2010, 01:40 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shani420
 Dear ali,
as u r from 11 MFC , I think u should join any firm willing to hire u.Concentrate on E mod.U can change ur firm if u find a suitable offer later on(noc dependent).Nobody can see the future.Kia pata ALLAH nay aap ki rozee aap ki soch say bhi zyada likhi ho.
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Yes you are absolutely rite buddy, meri rozi Allah ne jo likhi hogi woh muj se koi chein nhn sakey ga...
But its human nature that we always lead towards maximum.

Ali.M · 02-24-2010, 01:51 AM

Nice post Kamran bhai.

But it all depends on ACCA and other professional organization's side and as these are international bodies they are considering their profession as a whole and not considering domestic market requirement which is the main issue.

However, ICAP should see that how it can safeguard its profession.Moreover, decision of industry training is still not yet resolved.Leaving aside the pros and cons of industrial training but something must be done in order to safeguard ICAP student which shall in future become its members.

kamranACA · 02-24-2010, 04:40 AM

Dear Ali

Training in industry is a thing that will destruct the students' life, exposure and future. I treat it as a worst option if it will ever be exercised; no matter even if all of us change their point of view but I would love to stand as the last man with unchanged view on this matter.

Would you in future like to read "only those can apply who did not have training from industry". I bet if this decision is implemented, you all will see this happening. I bet it.

Our problem is that we all from the childhood "plan" to be doctors or PAF pilots. This "rarely" happens. Then we accidently start something like CA or ACCA or CMA or something else; and again create a similar "dream" to get inducted in big 4 or similar stuff.

I believe a human can achieve whatever he dreams but for doing this he has to arrange all ingredients that make the dreams come true.

We forget that Big 4 must have a capacity (even if we ignore commercial thingy) and cannot go beyond it.

All who are beyond their capacity should find their way at other positions and try to make their career.

Alas, when dreams are broken we get dishearted. We don't wish to listen big4 requirement with jobs and wish to do something that will ruine the whole profession. I have given serious dissenting view in my communication with institute on industry training issue and will always be doing so. Training in industry will never prove a solution. Rather it will take ages to undo wrong results if such decision is taken.

I advise all students not to.get so touchy with the level of firm that is available to them; rather work hard, prove yourself and believe in Allah. You will get what is in your fate. The need is of hard work and committment.

Dreaming big4 is not bad but don't make it a last point of your journey. I can quote many names who were not from big4 but attained the levels which normal students of big4 cannot even dream.

Work hard and keep the intent positive.

Do send me your cv

Regards,

Kamran.

aimaad22 · 02-24-2010, 04:45 AM

I found this topic very interesting, especially as I just became an ACCA affiliate and plan to start training after joining ICAP.

First of all Ali please allow me to add my dua and wishes to the above that you find a good firm soon.

The parts about the reference interested me most. I will soon start applying for articleship but I dont know how to go about it. I have a reference in a big 4 firm, so should I try their first and not apply anywhere else? But I also dont want to depend on the reference and know I will have to be confident and knowledgeable in the interviews etc. Can anyone guide me as to how to gain some idea of local laws and practices they might ask about? Since Ive studied foreign qualification Ive not that much idea about local regulations etc. If someone can give me basic guidelines about what to expect and how to prepare for in interviews and test it will be very helpful!!

Dard · 02-24-2010, 08:06 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 

Let me tell you that currently ACCAs and others are not being preferred over CA students for qualitative reasons. Of course this affects CA students who are in fact the primary input for this country' economy.

I agree we need a perfect and balanced competition and students entry should be made on qualitative basis.

Regards,

Kamran.

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Did you mean non-ICAP students don't have the required quality?

Dard · 02-24-2010, 08:09 PM

Dear Kamran bhai,
Don't you think ACCA affiliates should have a higher stipend rate as their knowledge is more than C.A inters(C.A inters have yet to pass papers ACCA affiliates have already passed)?

Dard · 02-24-2010, 10:05 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 

- there must be written and agreed terms of reference or training regulations for the training of ACCA students and firms should be obliged to get registered as Training Organization for ACCA students.

- rights and duties and codes of conduct for non CA trainees should also be explicit.

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Dear Kamran Bhai,
ACCA does have many approved employers registered with them as either platinum or gold status approved. And the approved status is given after a careful and critical assessment of the organisation in question
Please elaborate what code of conduct are you refering to

Dard · 02-24-2010, 10:15 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aimaad22
 I found this topic very interesting, especially as I just became an ACCA affiliate and plan to start training after joining ICAP.

First of all Ali please allow me to add my dua and wishes to the above that you find a good firm soon.

The parts about the reference interested me most. I will soon start applying for articleship but I dont know how to go about it. I have a reference in a big 4 firm, so should I try their first and not apply anywhere else? But I also dont want to depend on the reference and know I will have to be confident and knowledgeable in the interviews etc. Can anyone guide me as to how to gain some idea of local laws and practices they might ask about? Since Ive studied foreign qualification Ive not that much idea about local regulations etc. If someone can give me basic guidelines about what to expect and how to prepare for in interviews and test it will be very helpful!!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Firms don't ask questions to ACCA affiliates which they have not studied in their course. ACCA and C.A inter students have different tests ACCA students don't have to answer certain questions only related to C.A students (for example economics)
This is what Kpmg's HR's senior official had told us

aimaad22 · 02-25-2010, 04:41 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dard
 <blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aimaad22
 I found this topic very interesting, especially as I just became an ACCA affiliate and plan to start training after joining ICAP.

First of all Ali please allow me to add my dua and wishes to the above that you find a good firm soon.

The parts about the reference interested me most. I will soon start applying for articleship but I dont know how to go about it. I have a reference in a big 4 firm, so should I try their first and not apply anywhere else? But I also dont want to depend on the reference and know I will have to be confident and knowledgeable in the interviews etc. Can anyone guide me as to how to gain some idea of local laws and practices they might ask about? Since Ive studied foreign qualification Ive not that much idea about local regulations etc. If someone can give me basic guidelines about what to expect and how to prepare for in interviews and test it will be very helpful!!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Firms don't ask questions to ACCA affiliates which they have not studied in their course. ACCA and C.A inter students have different tests ACCA students don't have to answer certain questions only related to C.A students (for example economics)
This is what Kpmg's HR's senior official had told us
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Oh ok.

But I mentioned Im looking to start training after joining ICAP as CA inter inshAllah.

kamranACA · 02-25-2010, 06:00 AM

Dard

Here we are not discussing whether or not ACCA students possess quality knowledge. Rather, I explained that the preference that one can see in current situation is not for quality reason. We are discussing reason only.

Quality, competition, knowledge etc will only be compared when rest of elements will come at par so that selection can be made by any one on qualitative terms.

As far as ACCA students are concerned, I don't want to go in a controvercy by declaring anything absolute.

However, ACCA affiliates are different and far better than ACCA part qualified people; and CA Inters are Far Far better than ACCA part qualified students.

ACCA affiliate can give a good competition to CA Inters if selection has to be based on qualitative terms and ACCA affiliate has good personality attributes. Yet I believe ACCA part qualified are too behind in the quest, if quality is under question.

I am not in favor of discrimination; however, I advocate a perfect competition environment.

As far as stipend is concerned, I am of the view that ACCA chapter should be proactive to finalize UNIFORM predetermined stipend rates with the firms in various categories. Personaly, I don't feel that stipend rate of ACCA students/affiliates should be more than CA Inters unless the firm decides paying a higher rate at its discretion. However, I am not a decision maker so my feeling does not carry any weightage.

The categorization of approved employers is the most "failed" concept of ACCA chapter; and perhaps you don't know how they categorize and how much pursuance and monitoring they do. I know it personally so there is no room to listen arguments. Certainly, they are at a very initial step and bargaining is their limitation and not of the employers. I hope you will understand what I am saying.

BTW, Odyssee (a member of forum) went to PRL (an approved ICAEW employer/organization) for training placement and met the head of HR department. To his surprise, no one at PRL was even knowing what ICAEW in fact is and what is meant by "approved organization" or "training placement".

So dear theoratically things are always good but practically there is always something different.

I simply tell you that as far as ACCA students are concerned, there is no explicit code of conduct for them developed by ACCA chapter that should specifically govern the training issues in Pakistan.

Unlike CA, there is no registered training contract; there is no specified minimum period that a student commit to serve in training so they are always unpredictable with firm's point of view; mentor is never known to ACCA Chapter in advance since there is no registering of training arrangements; (oftenly necessity becomes mother of invention and mentors are created and ficticious training particulars are got signed and submitted which are never verified by chapter); ACCA chapter has not prescribed restrictions applicable to trainees not to engage in conflicting business; no uniform stipends are precribed creating disparity and confusion among students; office's general conduct is not clarified; no active monitoring of the training activities is done; ACCA chapter has no means to ensure that students are actually rotated in various departments; training structure is not uniform and is never discussed by ACCA chapter and ficticious training particulars are submitted to ACCA; so on and so forth. A long list can be produced simply by making comparison with ICAP's training regulations.

The reason is obvious, chapter is not in a bargaining position.

However, it should pay attention where it is feasible.

Let's see, things may improve over the time. Afterall chapter is youngster with reference to age and will certainly be addressing these issues in future.

Regards,

Kamran.

shani420 · 02-25-2010, 02:11 PM

Dear Kamranaca,
although I am moving away from the topic but I have a question.Why is ICAP not working on getting exemptions or signing reciprocal MOUs with more high profile bodies?
Why ICAP awards unilateral exemptions?Why Aussie CA get 18 exemptions while they doesn't award ICAP a single exemption.Even Indian CA gets 4 exemptions and just required to pass 1 paper in ICAA(Another member of the forum wrote this info).Similarly ICAI(Ireland),ICAS also don't award us any exemptions but we!
U know ICAEW is a different case.With just 15000 registered students worldwide now ICAEW is struggling to maintain its growth rate(even they r offering free exemptions).But still they give 14 exemptions to Indians as compared to 12 for us.Why ICAP doesn't promote it outside Pakistan?
Regards.

toor · 02-25-2010, 04:17 PM

@kamran Aca
i agree with ur views.Main difference between CA and ACCA is training. ACCA have to work on this issue.as far approved chapter is concern.industry always has limited capacity to train students.and also most of them dnt have any plan how to move student in different departments.
Every one knows that training in firm give real exposure.ACCA really loosing value in firms .As day by day Affiliates are increasing.there are lot of students who are in final stage but cant get training in Big 10 or even low firms.I am ACCA just become affiliate and i completed my ACCA in first attempt almost.i want to start training six month before but did not get any interview call . not from any small firm. the point is that if i failed in only one paper then again i have to wait for next 6 months. i know such person who spend 2 or 3 attempts in optional paper. they did not get chance to get traing and ultimately they start teaching.
now in pakistan only affiliate has sum scope . ACCA finalist have no recognition at all.Here ACCA stop blaming Firms .In one of ACCA Recruitment Fair , when this question is asked from Big 4 partner . he told when he have lot ACCA affiliates Resumes why he will consider ACCA finalist.the problem is excess supply .
I attend ACCA meeting of APL ,they giving presenting that encourage students to complete training and study at the same time.at that time i have left with last three papers. i met that miss after presenting and have some argue about this. i told ka u are talking about student .In pakistan a man with one paper left cannot get training .
yes affiliate are getting contracts. but just consider that there huge amount of finalist .where they will go??.In the end of argument that miss said me ka leave firms ,go for corporate sector .ACCA has 130 approved emplyor in lahore area.
my father is in industry.i tried some employer.what i come to know shocking.like WARTSILA ,they have only 9 finance staff. they just have only 1 acca.and they have not intention to recruit any one to foreseeable future .
I think job is responsibility of person himself . but training contracts is sumthing which is responibility of ACCA .
ACCA is finance degree . they must not treat it as MBA.

if ACCA does not change its polices then soon ACCA affiliates also struggle for training.
ya kamran bhai theory is really different from practical.i mailed to many ACCA officials .i ask them to conduct any survey relating this issue. but they didnt reply.
As far as our Govt is concern ,i dnt know why they allow ACCA to run in Pakistan,As in Govt jobs there is no recognition of ACCA .when they dnt want to give acceptance, why they give them right to collect such a huge amount from Pakistani studtnt.just u cant imagine the revenue collected from paksitan by ACCA. they should support ICAP. and if they allowed then they should also give recognition.

Dard · 02-25-2010, 06:41 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by toor
 @kamran Aca
i agree with ur views.Main difference between CA and ACCA is training. ACCA have to work on this issue.as far approved chapter is concern.industry always has limited capacity to train students.and also most of them dnt have any plan how to move student in different departments.
Every one knows that training in firm give real exposure.ACCA really loosing value in firms .As day by day Affiliates are increasing.there are lot of students who are in final stage but cant get training in Big 10 or even low firms.I am ACCA just become affiliate and i completed my ACCA in first attempt almost.i want to start training six month before but did not get any interview call . not from any small firm. the point is that if i failed in only one paper then again i have to wait for next 6 months. i know such person who spend 2 or 3 attempts in optional paper. they did not get chance to get traing and ultimately they start teaching.
now in pakistan only affiliate has sum scope . ACCA finalist have no recognition at all.Here ACCA stop blaming Firms .In one of ACCA Recruitment Fair , when this question is asked from Big 4 partner . he told when he have lot ACCA affiliates Resumes why he will consider ACCA finalist.the problem is excess supply .
I attend ACCA meeting of APL ,they giving presenting that encourage students to complete training and study at the same time.at that time i have left with last three papers. i met that miss after presenting and have some argue about this. i told ka u are talking about student .In pakistan a man with one paper left cannot get training .
yes affiliate are getting contracts. but just consider that there huge amount of finalist .where they will go??.In the end of argument that miss said me ka leave firms ,go for corporate sector .ACCA has 130 approved emplyor in lahore area.
my father is in industry.i tried some employer.what i come to know shocking.like WARTSILA ,they have only 9 finance staff. they just have only 1 acca.and they have not intention to recruit any one to foreseeable future .
I think job is responsibility of person himself . but training contracts is sumthing which is responibility of ACCA .
ACCA is finance degree . they must not treat it as MBA.

if ACCA does not change its polices then soon ACCA affiliates also struggle for training.
ya kamran bhai theory is really different from practical.i mailed to many ACCA officials .i ask them to conduct any survey relating this issue. but they didnt reply.
As far as our Govt is concern ,i dnt know why they allow ACCA to run in Pakistan,As in Govt jobs there is no recognition of ACCA .when they dnt want to give acceptance, why they give them right to collect such a huge amount from Pakistani studtnt.just u cant imagine the revenue collected from paksitan by ACCA. they should support ICAP. and if they allowed then they should also give recognition.
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Does ALMOST first attempter mean you have failed in one paper?
I saw 3-5 government jobs requiring an ACA and ACCA. That means it does have "some" scope in the govt sector too.
The problem with ACCA is that it does not focus on an individual country. It's just concerned with growth and growth. It should focus on individual countries and their local demands for ACCA students and affiliates. It should have strict training procedures in place to ensure that its trainees are being trained properly
I believe ACCA must make training compulsory after the fundamental level(like ICAP has done after inter). That way we won't see anyone comparing ACCA affiliate with C.A inter which makes no sense to me
ACCA's objective is being fulfilled, but at the expense of its students suffering big time

kamranACA · 02-25-2010, 10:14 PM

Dear Shani

Your question does not make sense at this thread where no such CA/ACCA comparison is being made in the sense where your question wishes to drive this debate. Your query in particular has been discussed a number of times on this forum and I am very much comfortable in replying it.

Still, I wish you to go through various threads where this issue has been discussed at length. You will certainly find my comments and explanation of the situation as well. At the moment, I don't wish to engage in this WELL PROVEN debate of comparisons.

Toor,

I would like to know where are you located at. The persons who get through ACCA in first or almost first attempts should not face too much problems in finding placement at least in mid-tier firms and even in big 3/4 firms.

Dard,

I feel you have made a good conclusion. Let's see how your chapter proceed on for the well being of its students.

Regards,

KAMRAN.

shani420 · 02-25-2010, 10:35 PM

Dear kamranaca,
I appologize to ALL MEMBERS if this question has already been discussed.
But kamran bhai I hasn't have used the word ACCA even once in my above post and I was not starting a debate of CA/ACCA.Although the platform was wrong(which I stated in the start of that post) but I just wanted to compare current international portability of Pak CA with Indian CA(Not at all with ACCA).Thanks for ur reply.But u mispercieved it CA/ACCA debate.I shall search this topic/question.
Regards.