Women in accountancy

[Evolution]

Can any tell me y there is a lack of females in the accountancy profession and dont tell me they cant do it because they are as good as any guy out there?

[smraza]

Sorry from the women,
actually women remain to in the field where "rattafication is the best qualification in the examination"
but in CA field ratta is not fully applicable

S M R

[jbladeus]

I'll disagree with u on this one, raza.

I have seen GUYS ratt'ofy whole IASes and Company Law alongwith their para and section numbers. At the same time, i also have some brilliant female engineers and IT professionals (subjects which certainly cannot be passed with 'rattafication') among my acquaintences. So your points are not much valid. Nowadays, this arguement of rattafication sounds pretty lame. Our women are excelling in all academic fields, including fields which were once thought to be the domain of men.

One of the actual reasons which keeps womenfolk from this profession is the amount of time required to complete this qualification. I mean if one enters this profession around the age of 19, it takes somewhere around 6 years (minimum) to complete articleship and get qualified. In our society, families start to look for rishtas for their daughters when they reach somewhere around 23. Hence this apparent lack of females.

Although nowadays this trend has started to change, and mashallah women have also started to come in this profession in throngs, especially since the advent of ACCA, as it takes significantly smaller period of time.

________________________
Arrrgh... it sure's gonna be mighty rough sailin' today ... mates!

[Arshid Khan]

I agree with you S M R. Why?.........................

[sumaaan]

The first and the foremost reason why there's lack of females in C.A is mainly the fact that you don't expect females to go on Audits for 12 hours from one side of the city to the other and return home late.

[geo]

I agree with sumaan, its really hard for women to be on audits and when they start the job its really hard for them to bear the tensions and behaviour of bosses i.e. BIG BOSSES..

[smraza]

I somewhat agree with you Guybrush, but the reason of time period whihc u gave, i dont agree with that, bcaz if u look at the MBBS profession, it also take 4 years to qualify and 1 year for Housejob, and as the summaaan said, "we don't expect females to go on Audits for 12 hours from one side of the city to the other and return home late." i dont agree, i have my female cousins which are in MBBS profession, they are used to come late, even they have to do night duties, but in CA fields, we have the examples of Miss Mona Khan, Miss Shenila Parek, of Ford Rhodes Robson Morrow who used to be on Audits and use to go home late, so the going will be the lame excuse,
and as the geo said that they cannot bear tensions and behaviour of bossess, for that i ll say that i think in Medical Profession there is more tension than CA field, as in Medical Profession the Tension is associated with somebody's life, and as far as the behaviour of bosses is concerned, so Bosses are in every field.
(I m associating the Medical Profession with the girls bcaz they prefer to go in that profession)
and if u go the karachi university where 70% are girls and 30% guys, u can notice that 90% of the girls have take the subject like economics, sociology, biology, pharmacy, and lots of logy logy logies,
these are all ratta subjects, u dont need to use ur brain, han, go to mathematics dept., chemistry dept. or physics dept. look at the percentage of guys and girls overthers, they will be like "AAtay main Namak"

S M R

[sumaaan]

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
and as the summaaan said, "we don't expect females to go on Audits for 12 hours from one side of the city to the other and return home late." i dont agree, i have my female cousins which are in MBBS profession, they are used to come late, even they have to do night duties, but in CA fields, we have the examples of Miss Mona Khan, Miss Shenila Parek, of Ford Rhodes Robson Morrow who used to be on Audits and use to go home late, so the going will be the lame excuse,

S M R
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>

The Medical field that you're talking abt is kinda different... Housejobs are in hospitals which are considered a 'safe place', with a lot of other females working, which is certainly not the case in accountancy firms...
Secondly, regarding those examples you gave from the field of chartered accountancy itself, the only thing I have to say "HOWEVER, THERE ARE SOME EXCEPTIONS."

[Pervez]

Hi Friends!
I agree with summan! there is an exception to every law. And i will disagree with the opinion that girls like to go for subjects that do not require brain work. Raza, can u quote us any empirical evidence of this assertion i.e. any surveys, research, studies etc.
When u visited the KU, whom did u talk? Did u ask the grils why they were preferring a certain subject over other? (I doubt if u could get near to any one of them, let alone talk!) We as professional should always be careful when making blanket statements.
In foreign countries, there are more female accountants than male(i have statistical evidence of this). It is considered a desk job, and women are considered more organized, reliable, and loyal to the firm than men. They generally apply themselve more honestly than men. I don't believe, our women are any different than foreign women. In fact Zara Num Ho Tu Eh Mitti Baree Zarghez Hey Sathi!
Thanks




Edited by - Pervez on Jul 21 2003 032817 AM

[smraza]

Sorry Pervez, ok, i take my words back that "women dont like the field of CA as it require more brain work than other fields"

so please tell me what do u say about that ? why the women dont enter into CA field ???? as u said

"In foreign countries, there are more female accountants than male(i have statistical evidence of this). It is considered a desk job, and women are considered more organized, reliable, and loyal to the firm than men. They generally apply themselve more honestly than men. I don't believe, our women are any different than foreign women."

S M R

[Pervez]

Hi Raza!
I appreciate ur acknowledgement of the fact that you rushed to judgement a bit soon! It is a sign of good professional.
Your question is quite valid that why women donot join auditing profession?
I think you and I just won't be able to appreciate the baggage that is carried by women in our society. Therefore, the best person to answer this question would be a lady. However, I can offer a few observations and opinions
1) I think we as a society still consider females as liabilities. So
parents are eager to transfer these liabilities from their books and onto somebody else balance sheet i.e. they want to get the daughters married as soon as possible. Therefore, the window of opportunity, for women to do anything after their college degree is very narrow, at the most a few years. Because of the length of C.A. programe, most women don't want to make a committment.
2) The work enviornment at our offices is not very conductive for female gender. You can observe how they are harssed in general public by indecent behaviour of men i.e. in shopping centres, buses etc.
Since auditing requires students to go to different places, females do not feel comfortable in new stituations dealing with strange men.
I think Sumaan referred to this problem also.

There are other obsticles that women face in our society that are not their creations. I would summarize them as social and cultural problems rather than a lack of intellegence on the part of women folks. By the way, last year all three top positions in B.Com exam were taken by women. I rest my case.

Thanks




Edited by - Pervez on Jul 22 2003 053450 AM

[smraza]

I somewhat agree with you pervez, but the thing is, like sumaan said, the females cant afford to go to different places, as the audit require to do so, but I would like to mention, that if a women lives in gulshan and she works at shahra e faisal, she is managing to come to shahrah e faisal daily by bus or car whatever, what happens if she has to go to tower today, shahra e faisal next day, and S.I.T.E day after tomorrow, and so on, if she has come out of her house, she can take bus or taxi (whatever) for any place in the Karachi, I think women can manage it, as I have seen some practical examples (please don’t call them exceptions)
And as far as the hesitation of women regarding meeting new people is concerned, for this I all just say that almost in every office there are lady receptionists and telephone operators, and they meet a new person 100 of times during a particular day,

And pervez, I would like to further mention, that my father is associated with Karachi university, and he is on influential position since many years <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>
Regards


S M R

[Paki]

I some what agree with you, 'smraza', but inapplicability of 'ratafication' is what that keeps them from passing, not entering the profession.
I think the reason is cause ICAP is not so glamorous and its mostly supposed to be a rather - an area devoid of fun. (can anybody suggest any fun our field has for ladies??)

guybrush, the difference is, a lady ratafying will pass the exams, but a guy ratafying wont...... they have a natural talent to excel in ratafication. (I dont believe ratafication is bad or something, but to be proud on its basis, is wrong). says who?? ratafication does get you an IT or engineering degree. I somewhat agree with you, on the time required to complete, but now they are making MBA for 6 years too (bba 4 yrs. and 2 for mba, or probably one) and I saw scores of ladies dying to get admission (there were guys too) in certain prestigeous institutes,, so its kinda puzzling!!!
sumaan's, geo's and guybrush's concensus is nicely answered by SMRAZA.
but one thing you all must agree, no ladies stay late, in their juniorship times!!!!!!! and you say bosses are rowdy on ladies, man u must be kidding, they are literally melting when talking to them,
and pervez I've statistical evidence too that there are fewer ladies accountant abroad (qualified accountants i.e)
regarding smraza's second answer, I think ladies realy like to do the brain work, its another question how good they can actually do it, and should they be given an undue advantage to do it (if u know what I mean) (and its not merely calumny, I realy have had a conclusion, so pls. give it appropriate consideration)

and pervez, you r right there, ladies are actually considered a liability, (which is sad) and I think thats a real problem, but I can still tell you that there were ladies and they did their articles married (but I guess u r gonna rule them out as 'exceptions')
your point number 2 is bogus to the extent of the offices (they r treated red carpetedly). in general public , u r right, but there even, the way the ladies are dressing up these days, they have a major contribution in this abuse.

Me rulz

[Pervez]

Hi Paki( i wouldn't like to be called by that name at any cost!)
About women as accountants in foreign countries, it is good, u qualified ur statement by saying 'qualified accountant'. If u read my posting carefully, i was talking about accounting profession in general not 'qualified accountant' Could u please quote the statistical source in your possession. It might be country specific such as UK, but in North American, the situation is different.
As far as ur assertion that women are treated "red carpetedly" (Wow, heard this expression first time. By red carpet, do u mean they are walked all over by their bosses?) This is true only till they are in good books with the bosses. Let a girl rebuke her boss's advances and see what happens to her.
You said my "point 2 is bogus". Hymmm you are not making much sense here. Because, bogus (fake) applies to a physical object not to an opinion or argument. Argument can be right or wrong, complete or incomplete, genuine or disgenuine, relevant or irrelevant, but bogus, doesn't make sense. Don't u agree?
I don't know why this obsession with ratafication. I downloaded ICAP advanced auditing paper the other day (out of curiosity). Man, it was full of requirements to define, explain, and describe etc. Don't u think this needs a truck load of ratafication? Hardly any practical cases there. I don't think i would need to be awake to get through that one. If anybody interested i can e-mail Canadain C.A. exam paper, and if u can find the word definition in it, a Kentucky dinner is on me!
I think sometimes ignorance is bliss! So enjoy it while it lasts.And this is my own "Certainity is best form of ignorance"
As always no offense intended and have a good day!




Edited by - Pervez on Jul 23 2003 061936 AM

Edited by - Pervez on Jul 23 2003 070753 AM

Edited by - Pervez on Jul 23 2003 070854 AM

Edited by - Pervez on Jul 23 2003 071335 AM

Edited by - Pervez on Jul 23 2003 071933 AM

[smraza]

Hi all,
Pervez, if in question paper there are define, explain, and describe etc. it doesnt mean we have to pass the paper by rattafication,
we can give conceptual answers (as we are considered as professionals)
but
unfortunately we have an eduction system which require rattafication than conceptual answers, like in physics or chemistry, if examiner has asked any definition, then we are required to write what exactly the Mr. Newton (marhoom) said.
isnt it foolish, now take the example of CA Tax paper last (oooh result is on 28th) if u have gone throught that papers, some questions was like " what does that section number so & so says??"
yes this requires rattfying, but this is only one or there may be two subjects, remaining all are conceptual papers,
this is another discussion, dont u think we are getting away from the topic?
as far as the "women in accountancy" concerned whenever i ask any lady that why dont she join CA, the answer is almost same"Na baba Na hum say nahi hoga, itna damagh kaun lagaaay?" if u dont agree u can ask any lady around you, (but remember the ladies which i mentioned are genious and shining in their respective fields) some ladies associated this profession with the Men <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
so i think we should try to remain on the topic
and i agree with the statement of Mr. Paki regarding the treatment of ladies in general public
Mr. paki said
"in general public , u r right, but there even, the way the ladies are dressing up these days, they have a major contribution in this abuse."

if i throw a note of Rs.1000/- on the road and expect that nobody will pick it up, it will be foolish on my part

S M R

Edited by - smraza on Jul 23 2003 103912 AM