Abb ACCA k Bad log CA ko monh Nahien Lagaengae.

[4thelement]

And remember Acca remains Acca once u qualifies there isnt any discrimination between members whether ur a pakistani national or a britisher, two ACCAs can hardly be equal to eachother in capabilities and skills and there are some pakistani ACCAs who are better than the UK ones, so it all depends upon the capabilities and skills one have learned.

When u talk about pakistani market i will again say that ACCA members are less in number therefore they have least market and many of the leading organisations are headed by monoplistic chartered accountants so this is the reason why there is less demand of ACCA in Pakistan, and u havent posted results of any professional or official survey carried out by anyone, there will certainly be the ACCAs in UAE who r earning better than ICAP members in UAE, i can bet on it and let us talk about other regions like asia-pacific, Ireland, South America, Africa there are huge amount of benefits for ACCA members and no. of exemptions which Icap members do not have so ACCA gives u a platform from where u can really start ur career as a professional accountant which certainly ICAP cant and everyone has there own objectives and measures in life their own circumstances own limitations so u cant blame anyone for pursuing ACCA rather than ICAP

regards

[4thelement]

ICAP is not even recognised there and thats why ACCA gives us global acceptance wherever u goes ACCA is there to support ur career ok let us compare ACCA and ICAP to the extent of course outline i think this is the only controversial area

regards

[kamranACA]

Dear 4thelement,


As far as Malaysia is concerned, I was talking about those who are having ICAEW training. It was not related to what exemptions are available or not. Further, I did not say that there would be some difference in capabilities of those who did ACCA from Pakistan and the ones who did from UK. I was explaining you the job opportunities available for such ACCAs and no one can deny this fact that for same qualification/exposure employers typically tend to employ local professionals unless some one wishes to take undue advantage of such hirings. In case of non-citizens or non-residents, those are more preferred who have more exposure of the specific environment. This is what actually happens. If you don't agree, it is upto you. You may come to know it at some point of time.

Malaysia and the issue of Pakistani ACCAs at UK was discussed in the same context. UK is not deficient of ACCAs residing and qualifying at UK. Do you feel so? There are ONLY 3000 plus CAs working in Pakistan, and even then, for securing jobs ACCAs feel the market saturated (indifferent for ACCAs) [I personally don't feel it saturation. Rather, this is the matter of preference of the entraprenure which you cannot understand] or in your words occupied by monoplistic minds.

Only 3000 CAs in your words created this monoply and the UK where number of CAs (ICAEW), CAs (ICAS), CIMA, ACCAs, and other such professionals are produced there would exist no such saturation or indefference or monoply against/for the Paksitani ACCAs. Believe you me in any such competition, Pakistani ACCA would be least preferred. Ask those who want to get simple articleship in UK firms. It's the most hard task at the moment. Thats why people move to Malaysia or other countries to get ICAEW authorized trainers and qualification etc. There always remains a discrimination for Pakistani and British at UK. How can we deny it. If you say otherwise (as u said) it is totally wrong. You know what is the biggest issue in USA current president elections. Analysts say that Blacks and Women can hardly win such election because of discrimination. These nations are not the angels. They are as much hypocrites as we can expect. Yes there could be rare examples contrary to the above conditions. However, rare is always rare. You just try to understand the issue. If you want to live in dreams do it. This does not affect me my brother.

CGA is an accepted local qualification of CANADA but still it is preferred after CA of CANADA. If it has given exemptions to ACCA, its a good news and I don't have any issue with it. I however was not having such info. Thank you for updating.

As far as matter of exemptions is concerned, I have always been of the view that CAs are not much worried for it. They can go for other qualifications but they don't find it a compulsion for their career. Do they need this for making bread and butter? The real problem lies here. Most of ACCAs (what I observed) remain concerned to get exemptions to have further qualifications and feel it a compuslion for making a good career. Do you find it prejudiced? Why it happens? Because in most of economies they have to find some local charter to make a room for their existence. ACCA "basically" has leading charter of no where. You will say that in so many countries ACCA has been given charter but you must not forget that in every such situation the main lead charterholder is some other body. This is the basic cause of the whole situation. ACCAs have to get exemptions for their existence or to come into main stream. Otherwise every where there would be some so-called "MONOPLISTIC PEOPLE" for my ACCA friends against which they will keep on showing grouses and greivances.

You see Pakistani ACCAs always measure their importance in terms of exemptions available to them. Why? Because it is a matter of their existence.

Still, I personally have no monoplistic concerns with ACCAs and so many ACCAs are getting training with my firm. ACCAs must not feel so because CAs from ICAP working in Pakistan are only 3000 plus. Out of this 3000 if we say (roughly) half a number is in profession, then the guys in industry would be almost 1500. Why these 1500 persons are supposed to give our ACCAs such a big challenge. You must re-visit your conclusion. I however don't know what is number of qualified ACCAs in Pakistan. In my view, so far it has been an issue of preference of entraprenure. Do prove your worth and get what you expect. No body has power to abstain any one. Could Musharraf do so with democracy or expression of public?

Course outline. Good issue to be raised at the end when no other way out is there to help. I can only say one thing. When you will come out of your academic times, it will not simply be the course outline or exam methodology/policies which will arrange a suitable position for you.

Can you understand it? If not then keep on making your sum-ups. I will also clap for such course outline and appreciate such conclusions. I always like the people who stand on their stances logically and firmly.


Best regards,



KAMRAN.

[4thelement]

other members are also encouraged to contribute

[kamranACA]

Dear,

This is not a matter of contribution in my view. Even I am wasting my time with some minds to clarify my stance.

I don't personally find any professional development by doing this whole debate. I just want to make the new comer students aware of what should be their choice by giving appropriate info for their careers.

Otherwise, nothing goes for or against my favor you know.

Best regards,


KAMRAN.

[4thelement]

i have to leave now i will post my answer tommorrow

[4thelement]

Dear Kamran bhai

In every post of urs u gives a new direction to this thread, i was talking about the prejudice between professional bodies and its members not between the ethnicities and different nations and i never said in any of my posts that people from west are angels they are not indeed.

Most of the acca students pursue it not because they think that its easy instead they join acca to prevent ICAP, coz there have always been some questionable things about ICAP and initially there wasnt any substitute but now there is ACCA and globalisation has produced many other alternatives as well then why ICAP and everybody knows that ACCA will give them a platform from where they can really being their career, there is also one more reason they join ACCA coz its more n more flexible then ICAP. So u can also use ACCA as an academic qualification rather than a professional but it gives u both the elements a professional as well as no. of exemptions and a touch of academics. Well i m confessing the fact in this thread that ACCA looks inferior in front of ICAP coz of its students and members who are not that mature and coz they do not enjoys the same benefits in firms which ICAP students enjoys, it may be because they do not study local tax and law of same callibre which ICAP members studies and again all the firms headed by ICAP members so they are more interested in hiring their own institutes students, this happens everywhere but slightly more in Pakistan u will certainly agree with this.

ACCA members studies same courses but they are not that much confident, it may be due to a common perception built by many people, secondly, most of the acca students do not opt for articles and articleship creates so many characteristics in a professional.

regards

[4thelement]

another fact i wud like to add is most of acca students are willing to work outside Pakistan and they know that having ACCA on their CVs will be more respected than ICAP.

most of the students who join ACCA belongs to second lane in terms of intelligence and past academic results and most of the bright students joins ICAP coz its cheap and more regarded in Pakistan, the reason why second lane students join ACCA is that there isnt any eligibility problem and anyone can join provided he is 21 yrs old so thats why all of the cream goes to ICAP this is another reason why employer prefers ICAP members(same is the case with intermediate colleges), but there are many ACCA students who are at par with qualitative qualified ICAP members.

finally, acca is a qualification which makes u enter any qualification with no. of exemptions thats why v join ACCA(flexible, easy, valuable, relevant, etc) and this is the reason why most of the acca students wish to have another certification after ACCA, and they does this coz they know ACCA will not only provide them no. of exemption but also a mature mind which can make a decision which industry or which area they have to specialise(Audit, tax, finance, others)

regards

[4thelement]

ok leave this all mess
tell me wat r ur issues with acca and wat r the points u wana prove i think this debate will take new directions everytime and this all will be useless, we shud make it more useful.

this thread started by khani who said ICAP members will not be in same state after the intro of ICAEW and almost everyone didnt liked that comment.

regards

[Muhammad Amir]

Dear 4th Element,

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">most of the students who join ACCA belongs to second lane in terms of intelligence and past academic results and most of the bright students joins ICAP coz its cheap and more regarded in Pakistan, the reason why second lane students join ACCA is that there isnt any eligibility problem and anyone can join provided he is 21 yrs old so thats why all of the cream goes to ICAP this is another reason why employer prefers ICAP members(same is the case with intermediate colleges), but there are many ACCA students who are at par with qualitative qualified ICAP members.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is factually wrong.

I can give you so many examples where students who have secured their admissions in reputable institutes but then they left those institutes and join ACCA, for example i was able to easily secure my admissions in BS(CS) at Karachi University similarly at FAST(NUES) even i scored highest marks there but then i left that option, similarly one of my friend had secured admission at IBA then he left IBA and came to join ACCA, another friend of mine was able got admission in NED(Mechanical Eng.) but he then left that field and started ACCA and you know the passing criteria of IBA,NU and NED.

However there are so many people who came to join ACCA after their failures in CA exams or through MSER at the age of 21 but the same problems they face here in ACCA i.e. they are not able to pass their exams of ACCA.

I have no material disagreement with Mr KamranACA in this debate but i would request him to wake-up and try to realize things with open eyes and mind and your influential personality can not change the facts and ground realities because there were so many influential people previous to you in this world but even they were not able to change the facts and ground realities.

This is just a request nothing else.

As far as 50 years concept of ICAPs monopoly is concerned as pointed by Mr KamranACA(as per his forecasting technique) this is just like the maxim "DEWAANEY KA KHWWAB" nothing else, i on record say that things will be 180 degree different from current situation just in the passage of 5 to 8 years, I know prestigious ACAs will not agree but changing facts is not in anyone’s hands.

Regards,

Muhammad Amir

[4thelement]

Dear Amir

u r absolutely rite, there may be some students who have joined ACCA leaving various top universities but most of the students are who found noway and joined ACCA but only those gets success who are hardworking and willing to make long lasting impression coz its not ICAP lolzz (just kidding)

anywayz am waiting for Kamran bhai's answer

BT FROM WHERE U HAVE DONE UR ARTICLES KAMRAN BHAI

REGARDS

[kamranACA]

Dears,

There was no endeavor to change the direction. It was just to explain that discrimination exist every where. You mentioned that no discrimination is to be faced to which I don't agree. I refer you to your follwoing message

"And remember Acca remains Acca once u qualifies there isnt any discrimination between members whether ur a pakistani national or a britisher"

So if you remain focussed, you will find no deviation. Nothing more is needed to be explained if you can identify the reasons.

I appreciate your recent posts which appear to be reflective of near to real situation. Of course, as Amir said, there could be so many very competent guys who would be doing ACCA. At the same time, the category you have pointed out would also be there and this is typically in abundance.

I only criticize those who find refuge in ACCA after failure in CA and then start criticising ICAP. You know there would be no case where some one might have found refuge in CA after getting failed in ACCA. That's why no one criticizes ACCA's policies. Now don't smile please.

What I wanted to prove has almost been agreed by you materially in your above posts. There is no need to start discussing it once again. I again clarify that any ACCA, or doing ACCA by any one, does not affect me. Whatever I explained was for the purpose of new comers. If any one finds it contrary to his own conclusion, he can give a test to his perception. Everything will come on ground during such a test.

I don't like to discuss or enquire any one's personal identification at this forum.


Regards,


KAMRAN.

[4thelement]

OK so thats it
we eventually agreed

[kamranACA]

Dear,


I was never disagreed. I am still there, where I was.

I also appreciate your assiduousness and strong stance for your preference and still agreeing to the realities materially.


Regards,



KAMRAN

[Schuaeb]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Muhammad Amir</i>
<br />
Shoaib has asked that i have taken too much time to realize that members of ICAP are our asset and that they are representative of pakistan in the whole world.

The answer to this question is that i have praised ICAP members not ICAP polices they both are different things and must be seen in different perspectives. Shoaib will agree with me on this point that most of the ICAP members and current students are also against their policies(and he is also one of them).

I hope shoaib that your efforts to mix-up some simple things did not work here.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do I need to reproduce your earlier comments about ICAP and its members without distinguishing between the two?

Anyone has got the right of having the stupidest opinions, but at least the facts used should not be incorrect. Criticizing the policies of a training firm or ICAP's policies as regards stipends of trainees is altogether a different thing. Can you give me the example a single one where I have criticized ICAP's exam policies or anything like that? What about ACCAs? Is it new for us to know that on this forum times and again ACCA's policies have been blamed for the miserable plight of ACCA members in Pakistan?

Come on yaar, say whatever is in your mind but please do have dare to speak the truth. What is the weightage of arguments built over wrong facts? If you are taken as an ACCA representative on this forum then nothing needs to be proved my means of words, you yourself will serve the purpose.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Muhammad Amir</i>
<br />

You are asking about the future of ACCAs.

It is also very simple to understand for anyone as long as he tries to understand things in the state of what they are not in the state of what they have to be?

Except Audit Profession ACCA's future is bright here in pakistan, I ask him about the future of ICAP in fields except audit.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Why to talk about ACCAs' future, have a look at their present. After qualifying ACCA when you will enter the market situation will automatically become apparent. A B.Com student might be starting with 8-12 thousand, and a fresh ACCA may be paid 12-15. Who told you that practicing and audit is all what makes the difference between the two?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Muhammad Amir</i>
<br />

ACCAs usually qualify this profession with 3 years of internship at the age of 24 to 25 on the other hand CA students qualify on an average at the age of 30 to ____.

So Mr Shoaib can you compare the worth of a young professionals of ACCA and your ACAs of 30s,40s,50s and so on; apparently this difference of years will allow ACCAs to pursue some other qualifications even they can be able to do specialization in any field but what about CAs?????? a huge question mark .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Again incorrect facts, whatever, be the case like this. ACCAs definitely have got this advantage. But if it is the criterion for comparison the matric qualified peon in my office takes the lead. At the age of 18 he is done with his qualification and start his professional life.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Tahoma, Arial" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Muhammad Amir</i>
<br />

One thing that is still out of my apprehension is that what is something special in ICAP which made current students and trainees of ICAP so proud on them even after knowing the fact that their policy making group have seen "NOUSHTA-E-DEWAR".


Regards,

Muhammad Amir

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When you apprehension skills will mature you will be in a better position to analyze the situation, however, at this point in time I do it for you. Tell me if a simple graduate or a B.Com starts comparing his professional capabilities with a qualified ACCA on the similar grounds (as you are fond of doing), isn't it very likely that in the end he may have similar view about ACCAs that they reasonlessly consider themselves superior and proud