ICAP humiliating itself

Pracs · 01-20-2009, 08:02 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rabia-k
 pracs there is so much of mud slinging by people around on this forum and in certain other topic too so u should start a new topic with this above post of urs.

since u insist it is SHOUTING i will change what i have written in capital to small letters.personally i will never find writing in caps as shouting, one can also write in caps to make something clear. sorry i am not visiting ure above links.

regards
rabia
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Rabia, its not me who makes the rules, or perhaps that is how you behave in real life as well?? and don't give a dime about what the rest of the world have to say, keep it up and you will go places.. Despite all the 'mud' (do you even know what mud slinging means?) Given your posts, I now doubt the level of your metal intellect or perhaps the lack there of. Nothing will surprise me now, (of what you post). Your blatant refusal of not clicking on any of those links (they are not my sites !) saddens me, are you afraid of the truth? is this is how our youth are turning out? Or is it becoming more of a national trait? May Allah have mercy on us.

You and Khalid have failed to recognise the positives I or for that matter Kamran had posted about ACCA, you may not agree all the way with me or any one else here but it seems you did not take the time to read any of it. (Yeah, Khalid read some) Neither you seem to understand what any one is saying on this thread nor have you made the effort to do do. I have no problem with people not agreeing with each other, but please for the love of God have some civility in your communication.

Enough said, this is my last post in reply to any of yours. Have fun turn your caps on, shout all you want, go crazy (or have you already). Nice knowing your rude self.

Pracs · 01-20-2009, 08:07 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 Dear Pracs,

Is it not playing of some musical instrument in front of this lady?

What this lady needs to say by using the word "mud"; do you know Pracs?

Regards,

KAMRAN.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Kamran, given her post on 'CAPS ON' I am pretty much convinced on your analogy, well deduced I must say.

Pracs · 01-20-2009, 08:31 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Pracs
 [quote]Originally posted by rabia-k
 pracs there is so much of mud slinging by people around on this forum and in certain other topic too so u should start a new topic with this above post of urs.

since u insist it is SHOUTING i will change what i have written in capital to small letters.personally i will never find writing in caps as shouting, one can also write in caps to make something clear. sorry i am not visiting ure above links.

regards
rabia
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Rabia, its not me who makes the rules, or perhaps that is how you behave in real life as well?? and don't give a dime about what the rest of the world have to say, keep it up and you will go places.. Despite all the 'mud' (do you even know what mud slinging means?) Given your posts, I now doubt the level of your metal intellect or perhaps the lack there of. Nothing will surprise me now, (of what you post). Your blatant refusal of not clicking on any of those links (they are not my sites !) saddens me, are you afraid of the truth? is this is how our youth are turning out? Or is it becoming more of a national trait? May Allah have mercy on us.

Don't stop on my account, have fun turn your caps on, shout all you want, go crazy (or have you already). It was nice knowing your rude self.

rabia-k · 01-20-2009, 04:03 PM

dear all forum users, please donot write in CAPS ON it is more of shouting than explaining or expressing ure views.

regards
rabia

kamranACA · 01-20-2009, 06:19 PM

Dear Pracs,

Certainly she cannot understand what you have said. I could not help laughing.

Rabia,

I already said that ICAP is a localized professional institute. It has produced almost 5000 CAs so far (now almost 4000 alive or working) who are not bound to leave the country merely for the sake of bread and butter like some of other so-called "respectable/prestigious qualification holders" which don't find it here.

I know you cannot understand this fact. ICAP does not have an agenda to open its office even as a company to enhance the revenues over the globe by sacrificing quality in whatever manner. Your "respectable" qualification is just a product of some company at so many places. Further, the claim of being a globally recognized "super sonic" qualification always comes from ACCA who is no where in top 50 even at UK (its homeland) when talking in professional perspective. The ones who are not even in top 50 at homeland, how could they be the leaders elsewhere. The first issue is not spreading out a designation across the globe, rather, it is to attain the highest position in competition at least at homeland. You âcannotâ appreciate that numbers cannot replace the quality.

ICAP is a high quality institute of a third world country. Its members are taken on the boards of IFAC and all other internationally renowned professional, advisory and standard setting bodies. It's members have been playing all the advisory roles for institutions like world bank, IMF, Asian development bank, UNO, UNDP, various high commissions, biggest oil refineries, petroleum companies, and what not and what not. Any stupid posts cannot change the fact at all. I have worked for so many such assignments and I am a witness to the fact that when international investors come to Pakistan they bring technical consultants from foreign countries like Atkins, Appledoor, corus consulting etc but on financial side they always rely upon the capabilities of Pakistani CAs. They never bring financial advisors from abroad. There had not been even a single instance to the contrary in all biggest transactions / privatizations we saw in Pakistan during last 10 years. This all is nothing else than their belief in ICAP's member firms. How a kid of your age who is an ACCA student can understand it?

I know you are a student and at this junior level your stupid opinions have no weight, but those, who are your qualified ones should talk professionally and come up with what can prove something effectively.

You say that I am always focusing on Pakistan primarily. Yes, you are right, I do so because I am a Pakistani first of all and my all views about ACCA are primarily for the guidance of Pakistani students. I have mentioned it at so many times. I don't care whatever a student at Malawi or Turkey is doing. Since I deal with Pakistani professional students of accountancy I wish them not to divert from the best path. What goes wrong with it? Will you come to Pakistan to provide them the salary levels they or their parents have been expecting all the time while they were doing your so-called "chartered accountancy", a product of company registered under companiesâ ordinance 1984? Certainly not. I will not either. So what can I do is to guide them what is best for them. If they are upto it they should do it and if they find it harder and opt something else then they should be mentally prepared to accept the final outcome. Now when some one, in the veil of global recognitions stuff, provides one side of story to such students, I just endeavor to create the balance by stating the facts. After all every one cannot leave the country merely for the reason that a particular qualification is not paying them locally.

Apart from all this discussion, every one is quite independent of his own decisions, and I have no where been forcing my views on any student. What I do is to state the fact. I never have hidden the merits of ACCA which are specific to it. You can go to every thread and you can find it out.

You have asked for some other firms having office out of Pakistan. I told you that a huge number is logically not possible given the total CA members of ICAP. However, I give you a few other references just because you are a student and it may enhance your knowledge base.

Munaf Yousaf and Co., Toronto, Canada

Hasan Tabani and co., Otawa, Canada

Avais Hyder Liaqat Nauman, Kabul, Afghanistan

A.F.Ferguson and Co., Kabul, Afghanistan

Viqar A. Khan and Co., Ontario, Canada

Tariq Qayyum and Co., Mississuaga, Canada

Kahlil-ur-Rehman, Sharja, UAE

Hadi Shahid and Co., Abu Dhabi, UAE

Chaoudry Associates, West yorkshire, UK

Farooq Muhammad Ladha, Safat, Kuwait

A.W. Nagda and Co., Dubai, UAE

Ali Associates, London, UK

These firms may be providing restricted or unrestricted services at such locations and they might have partners with other qualifications as well. But these do exist around the globe as well. However, I place on record that these are not very big firms outside Pakistan except Afghanistan. One should not make wrong claims. Still, these do exist. There are some others as well.

However, the pointing out of ACCA was warranted because it is taken to be a globally recognized and globally present qualification the members of which make the claim of engulfing the world or at least gulf within couple of years. No ICAP member made such a claim for ICAP. The people who want to engulf the world or gulf within 2 years are not even seen within top 50 at their homeland i.e. UK. What their position would be at other locations. Mashallah, still they are leaders and can engulf. What can I say buddies.

Be prudent, mature, decent, and accept the facts. Facts don't have to change.

Khalid,

What can one reply to an insane for his unsound mind yapping? It's better not to reply your stupidity here. I wish you could have appeared on those threads to face the facts but you did not. Al'as. You did nothing else except gripping on "don't go for prayer" by ignoring the complete version "don't go for prayer if you are not in senses". Try to understand. However, I know you cannot.

Your so-called world engulfing professionals, we have seen, when you gave those links. What else you can prove?

I am waiting for further two years to see how you will take over the whole world in couple of years. Bearing with you buddy.

Regards,

KAMRAN.

rabia-k · 01-20-2009, 10:31 PM

@ kamran

thanks for giving info about the firms and another thanks for mentioning that these are not very big firms outside pakistan.
i didnt know there were no accountancy firms being run by ACCA's in uk, in the top 50. its really shocking.

u continue with ure ridiculous ideas and misconceptions about ACCA.
it is not a claim, it is a globally recognised qualification. if u think it is a claim, then continue doing so.

in pakistan ICAP ca will give one a better salary , but in the middle east be it ACCA or CA , there is no difference it all depends on work experience , and when talking about the west, surely ACCA will bring benefits.

ICAP is a high quality institute of a third world country. Its members are taken on the boards of IFAC and all other internationally renowned professional, advisory and standard setting bodies. 

ACCA is on this board too,as well as ICAG(INSTITUTE OF CA of GHANA) .u forgot to mention.

lastly y is it with such a high quality institute already in place were ACCA and now ICAEW allowed in the pakistani market??? \\\

i have already apologized for using caps on before and wont be using it again so u dont need to laugh .

regards
rabia

SAIFEE · 01-21-2009, 04:52 AM

SALAM TO ALL
What is going on?
Dear rabia as you are student so dont try to fight with samurai of accountacy
marjao gi.
Another thing you people blaming icap i want to tell all especially mroneflower that if some body who can not pass icap exams they are blaming icap.
Now what i can say in the presences of Kamran ACA becoz i am in module A. and he is ACA
Regards
saifullah khalid

Toronto_Boy · 01-21-2009, 05:32 AM

Dears

Well it is not my interest to go in this kind of debate, but to keep facts clear, most of the firms based on Pakistani CA are most likely being run from homes. These are one person firms involved in preparing personal tax returns for $20 per return, book keeping services for small business like gas station or convenience stores etc., filling-up business registration forms, to avoid personal taxes by showing business losses, even providing immigration consultancy services in some of the cases, and last but not least to avoid low paying non-professional jobs. In any case, they can't represent themselves as CA (of ICAP) to general public, simply as CA of ICAP is unrecognized here, unless they have any of recognized Canadian designations. Ads of such firms can easily be seen in any of free local Urdu newspapers. Comparing one person home based small business firms with ACCA firms may not be a sound argument.

Regards

Pracs · 01-21-2009, 06:39 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rabia-k
 @ pracs,
are u stupid, or is it a special day today.
u judge the way people behave in real life based on whether they use CAPS when posting on forums. never heard such a ridiculous comemnt in my life!!! u r one of those (so called educated) people who take no time to jump on to judging somebodys behaviour/class/calibre/mentality etc etc. GOD have mercy on u if u judge people's behaviours based on their usage of CAPS ON.

dont raise question on how i behave in real life , u have no right to. i have alread changed the parts of my posts that i had written in caps, earlier . but yes i didnt and i wont check out the links u send.( i know they r not urse sites).

i also apologize if any one felt hurt/ridiculed or insulted by me using CAPS.

someone came up with this ridiculos thing, writting in caps is shouting, in my case i was not shouting,i think u didnt read the post carefully. one can also write in caps to make oneself clear . it can also mean that someone can read what is written better and make certain words stand out.

i dont know y u 2 r creating a hype about the word mud??? mud - slinging = bashing up/insulting/destroying reputation for me, i dont know what it means to u. there is a lot of ACCA bashing up in this and other forums .

"Don't stop on my account, have fun turn your caps on, shout all you want, go crazy (or have you already). It was nice knowing your rude self." 
i didnt know any1 can be could be labelled crazy / rude simply by using caps!!

dont use a silly reason such as CAPS ON for commenting on how our youth are turning out to be,. blame it on the educated jahils sitting in our country, trying to scare prospective students from pursuing respectable qualifications. the educated jahils who belong to a CA body that is not among the globally recognised CA bodies, feel they have every right to point fingers at other qualifications. (out of jealousy) .
also blame your own self, what do u expect from youth. in this forum seniors take no time to jump on to criticising others behaviour/class/caliber etc etc , so what do u expect from the juniors???

rather than giving etiquete lessons here better do something about the crap that is being said about ACCA. r u an ACCA?? if so then it seems u have turned a blind eye to all the propoganda against acca by a person who is not an ACCA himself!!!

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I don't need to say any thing, this post of yours shows what I said, one is a reflection of one's self in what he/she writes and behaves on forums, chat rooms etc.

My opinion was not formed on just one post but atleast a dozen on this forum, I am not going to point them out here, people can see for themselves.

If you had taken the time to read, understand, ponder on my post on the same subject it would have become obvious that I have defended ACCA alongside with ICAP in the most objective fashion. However, your banter on ACCA isn't helping at all, you are just driving down your point of view.

If you had noticed (something you seem to be short of)I have not 'labeled'any one else here, say aliboy. Why do you think is that?

You are a student of a professional qualification, it should take more than a few post by Kamran or any one else for that matter to 'scare' you of. You know what ACCA stands for, why all the hoopla?

Most of all you are not in Pakistan, do you think you even know what 'ground reality' is there?

mroneflower · 01-21-2009, 09:44 AM

Dears

Pracs has stated Khalid and Rabia falied to recognize positive point about ACCA made on this forum. Is that what Pracs you are asking?. If you are saying this then I am sorry to say I have not seen any single post by Kamran where he mentioned anything positive about ACCA. Kamran even humiliate countries by saying Country like Ghana. On other hands he says ICAP firms are big only in Afghanistan outside Pakistan, is it joke. This man is rude, proud and provides misleading information. I have mentioned and pointed out many of his post where he provided misleading information to students.

As far as mud slinging is concerned I am with Rabia, when ICAP people do it against ACCA then no one says anything but when other shows ICAP its real face people talk of ethics. INTERESTING.

Secondly when Rabia used term mud slinging she was referring to ICAP people act. By the way I would like to know what is ICAP people understanding of word mud Slinging.

No claim can be and will be accepted unless supported by backing. Toronto_Boy has responded to Kamran post where he provided so called list of ICAP firms operating outside Pakistan. No further comments are required.

Kamran has claimed that ICAP people are leaders in Pakistan. I am sorry to say this statement is also factually wrong. It has been mentioned by Kamran and Pracs that partners in big firms in Pakistan are mainly ICAEW members. Means they first became ICAEW members and then ICAP members so it could be said that they are mainly ICAEW members. So partners of big firms in Pakistan are not even mainly ICAP members so how can ICAP members be leaders in Pakistan. Please note this information that big firms partners in Pakistan are mainly ICAEW members is provided my Pracs and Kamran not me. So this claim that ICAP members are leader is Pakistan is wrong, therefore Kamran is again misleading people.

I also do not support Kamran and pracs comments about Rabia, it looks from their post they both of them forcing her to accept their calims only because they are senior to her. It does not work like this. I am shocked when Pracs said âdo you mean what is meant by mud slingingâ. My friend ICAP members have been doing this for almost a decade as far as ACCA is concerned, like they said ACCA members do audit of beauty saloon, they also call small firms shops. By the way all firms whose names are mentioned by Kamran are too small and one partner firm(working from home) so in ICAP people terms all ICAP firms out of Pakistan are Shops, Interesting.

I am happy ICAP changed their argument and started saying that ICAP members only work in Pakistan. Remember they used to say that ICAP members work and run firms all over the world. I will not be surprised if after sometime ICAP members start saying they are not even leaders in Pakistan which is fact.

I am not able to understand if ICAP members are leaders then why ICAP signed such MOU understanding with ICAEW which humiliates ICAP. I am mentioning it again ACAs from ICAP are not part of international ACAs community and that word chartered does not belong to Pakistan, in short ICAP stole this word in hope to enter international community of ACAâs and ICAP failed so in ICAP members terms ICAP is failure and struggler.

As far as top 50 firms in UK are concerned, Kamran asked me to provide links of only those firms which are only run by ACCA. ACCA members are partners in top 50 firms in UK, this could be checked.

Kamran

You think my all posts are rubbish and say there is no need to reply to my post and you still reply. Its amazing. Kamran keep in saying Rabia is students that is why she do not know reality. Firstly if some is student it does not mean person does not reality, secondly u say she is student and you still find time to reply to her post means what she is saying is reality.

Kamran y dont u accept you do not know anything about accounatncy profession which is clear in your post when you said ACCA is just an Association and when you said ACCA came into being much much after double entry system was introduced.

You also mentioned that Pakistani ACCA UK qualified and Pakistani ACCA local qualified.

SAIFEE

I do not care what you think about me. But the interesting thing is that you emailed me three times for advise about ICAEW. GOOD.

You mentioned that Rabia is just a student. She is ACCA part 2 student and you have yet not started studying for any professional accountancy qualification (you just started ICAP first stage about a week ago). I guess you might have started studying functional English means you are learning Englsih. so Rabia is better than you. Anyway its a joke that ICAP teaches its students English. FUNNY.

Khalid

mroneflower · 01-21-2009, 09:48 AM

Dear Toronto_Boy

Thanks for your post and opening ICAP people eyes. ICAP people should understand that people are saying ICAP members are doing jobs which are lower than the job of Accounts Clerk so outside Pakistan ICAP members are not even Accounts Clerk. GOOD.

Khalid

Toronto_Boy · 01-21-2009, 01:02 PM

Dear mroneflower

I am just trying to say that Canada is not an easy country, specially for professionals in any field from sub-continent countries. Market conditions, competition and non-recognition of professional qualifications do not give leverage to professionals from these countries including CAs from ICAP. Moreover, as CA from ICAP is un-recognized here, officially they can't say CA to themselves, as CA is the brand of CICA here. Whatever job or business they do is in their personal capacity just like all other accounting graduates or non-desiganted accountants. However, some of them are doing reasonably good jobs, but again in their personal capacity and not based on recognition of Pakistani CA. Others are doing just regular accounting jobs and personal accounting/ book keeping services business.

I would say this kind of debate and conflict is useless. Whether we believe or not, but eventually market forces would define worth of all designations in Pakistan. Monopoly based policies may not last longer in todays world and associations sheltered under monopolistic policies would eventually be limited to restricted services like signing off audited financials though actual field work would be performed by some staff accountant.

Rapid and steady increase in number of students and members of ACCA in Pakistan is one of the major indicators of these market forces.

Regards

mroneflower · 01-21-2009, 01:28 PM

Dear Toronto_Boy

Thanks for your comments. I never started this debate I just pointed out terms of MOU which ICAP signed with ICAEW and which is called major sucess of ICAP. I just pointed out that its not a ICAP sucess but its ICAP failure. ACCA is fully recognised in canada as ACCA has MRA with CGA canda and CGA canada can sign audit report in Canada. so People like me can become qualified accountant in Canada.

When I first knew about Institute of Certified Accountants of Pakistan a few days back, I thought is useless qualification. I just received an email from CPA(PAK) and they are saying they are seeking premission from Pakistani government to sign audit report of plcs in Pakistan, but ICAP is major hurdle so far. I think as being Pakistani institute CPA(PAK) will get premission from government. I hope you are getting point.

I agree with you and have been saying for a while legal backing will not help ICAP for long time and now its CPA(PAK) is there which lauched it squalification in 1994.

All the best to ICAP.

Khalid

Toronto_Boy · 01-21-2009, 02:42 PM

Dear mroneflower

In fact, a member of ACCA from any part of the world can become member of CGA Canada, without physically coming to Canada, through ACCAs MRA with CGA Canada, as long as he/she satisfies other requirements of CGA. It is a huge advantage for ACCA students specially in Pakistan. Which means after studies of ACCA, a student can get one North American designation (i.e. CGA) while living in Pakistan. So have both UK and North American designations in Pakistan.

Moreover, with due respect, I would disagree with your opinion about CPA (Pak). Having audit rights without proper infrastructure is neither good nor that simple thing. Similarly, having new institutes/ associations is a good thing in long-term, but in short-term students would most likely become victim of non-reputed and less market worthy institutes/ associations like CPA(Pak). Personally, I don't think CPA(Pak) would get audit rights in foreseeable future and Govt of Pakistan would allow it. However, any thing can happen there. This is just my opinion that may or may not be different from others.

Regards

rabia-k · 01-21-2009, 06:42 PM

please dont write in CAPS it is called "shouting" or u will be called rude/crazy ur mental intelect wll be criticised etc etc..by ur so called samurais of accountancy 

regards
rabia