ICAP humiliating itself

Toronto_Boy · 01-23-2009, 02:35 AM

Dear rabia-k

I would try to add more argument to your above post. Intention of my post is specifically for Pakistani (and NOT paki) students living in Pakistan and outside Pakistan both, and not for other nationals.

We can further say,what about the qualification that provide reasonably good jobs in Pakistan (if not prefered one, at-least currently, though future is uncertain) and makes transition in other countries easier, if one intends to go outside Pakistan in some stage of life, so keep the doors open. Also, what about the qualification that has more chances to complete successfully as compared to not completing Pakistani designations (in terms of probability). What is better, being designated (with 40% chances OR 2% chances) or not designated.

If living in USA/Canada is like living on Antarctica, then probably living in Middle East could be living in hell's fire. Moreover, interestingly big portion of immigrants to USA/Canada are those who belong to sub-continent countries living in Middle East and then due to various reasons don't wanna go back in their respective countries, and move further towards West including USA/Canada.

"Respectable living". Does this mean global qualifications do not provide "respectable living" in home countries? At-least this is not the case in Pakistan. Probably we need to distinguish between preferred one and respectable one. In some cases, global qualifications may not bring preferred jobs or not satisfy requirements of restricted service but they certainly provide "respectable living" in home country (like Pakistan).

"Study of Asia". At-least I am learning new concepts here. Which one is the study of Asia? In any case, I would not suggest Pakistani students to go for Indian CA or Chinese CPA, if they are more in numbers and working in Asia. By the way, is Asia outside the globe or one wanna say that global designations do not work in Asia and specifically speaking Middle East? What is the intention of the writer by using words "study of Asia"? Does he wanna say Indian CA is the study of Asia because they are more in numbers and working in Asia? In which direction he wanna take discussion of this thread, and more specifically speaking the whole forum? I believe this is the forum initiated by Pakistanies and for Pakistanies mainly.

I agree that public accounting jobs are difficult to perform for comfort liking persons, specially under the management of North American (like CPA) designated professionals who are used to work from 60 to 80 hours per week.

Similarly, second category nationals is highly debateable term depending upon personal choices. Comparison of living in Kuwait with UK and Antarctica (or perhaps USA/Canada) needs much considerations. Personally, I don't wanna make this thread non-technical and do not intend to divert discussion toward unending debate. No further comments.

Regards

mroneflower · 01-23-2009, 03:03 AM

Its fine. but SAIFEE has to be careful in future.Yes its right I may not know his full ID but if he will do it again with someone else the person may find out his ID and report to ICAP which can dangerous for him (i hope others will agree with me on this).

Its fine by now.

Khalid

mroneflower · 01-23-2009, 04:18 AM

Dears

Firstly I must say I personally know two people who qualified as an ACCA Affliciate from London and worked in London for about 1.5 yrs. One of them is earning 80,000 plus car and second one is earning 70,000 plus car in Karachi. If it is not good package then what is good package. Can someone explain. Remembers they are not ACCA full member yet.

I can accept the comment that one should go for local qualification if its apply at all time and for all foreign qualification. In Pakistan ICAEW is given preference over ICAP even by ICAP members, but on other hands they say ACCA is not good. The only ACCA crime is that it gives everyone equal opportunity to become Qualified accountant and conduct its examinations in Pakistan. I suspect same may happen to ICAEW in Pakistan in coming yrs and ICAEW is going to conduct its examinations in Pakistan.

Yaya Khan said check the number of ICAP and ACCA who are working in UAE. I assure everyone in number game ACCA will defeat every accountancy institute of the world even CPA(USA) which has 350,000 member more than double of ACCA members but most of them working in USA (correct me if I am wrong). As far as ACCA is concerned its has about 31,000 members in UAE as compare of ICAP which has about 875 members working outside Pakistan. So in number game ACCA will never loose.

One more interesting fact that ICAI(Ireland) which is the only UK based accountancy body fully recognised in USA is going to launch its new route to membership especially for ACCA members cause ACCA is defeating in number game to everyone in UK. But the problem is to use this new route of ICAI(Ireland) one has to be in UK. This route will be avialble in next coming months. If someone does not believe me, the person can email ICAI(Ireland) Director of Education and Training, Ronan O'Loughlin. Moreover ICAEW is going to change its CCBA route to its membership as current CCAB route of ICAEW failed to attract ACCA members. This will also be available soon.

Inspite of all above available option I do not recommend any of ACCA member to become ICAEW or ICAI(Ireland) as ACCA is itself big enough.

Another interesting thing, If some is national of EU member state and member of CPA(Ireland) then person can easily become member of ICAEW and ICAS(Scotland) using EU directive. EU directive does not apply to ACCA in Ireland and Scotland as it is already recognized there. So ACCA is already big enough.

For clarification of readers(especially rabia) in uk to become auditor and sign audit report of plc, one does not need to be member and hold practicing certificate issued by ACCA, ICAEW, ICAS, ICAI or any other profession body recognized by EU directive.

Auditor status of PLC can be issued to anyone who is considered fit for audit by Department of trade and Education. But normally Department of trade and Education issues audit certificate to members of following body.

The Institute of Chartered Accountants in Australia (ICAA)

The Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants (CICA)

The New Zealand Institute of Chartered Accountants (NZICA)

The South African Institute of Chartered Accountants (SAICA)

I am not sure about The Hong Kong Institute of Certified Public Accountants (HKICPA). So I wanted to say Department of trade and Education can issue Audit certificate to anyone.

In short, signing audit report is not the main thing which is mainly discussed here by ICAP. The main thing is market recognition and ACCA has market recognition is 160 country of the world including Pakistan.

As far as Pakistan is concerned I have been told by CPA(Pak) that they are seeking audit recognition in Pakistan. If it will happen then ICAP will loose its monopoly in Pakistan. However I am not sure about CPA(PAK) this claim nor I am suggesting anyone to go for CPA(Pak) as I personally do not have any information about this qualification. I also do not know legal status of CPA(PAK) in Pakistan.

I even do not know why people are not willing to accept that Indian CA are also good. If we as a Pakistanis do have problem with India it does not means we should reject reality. ICAI(India) is the fourth biggest accountancy institute in the world with 145,000 members.

If Secondly class citizen means someone who cannot start his own business and buy property, then all overseas nationals in UAE (excluding Dubai) are second class citizen. However there is no such term in Western world. If someone is saying overseas students face problems in UK in start then its correct and it very natural, but it does not make anyone second class national. Remember Overseas students and workers in western world are not citizen of country where they study or work therefore term of second class citizen does not arise. In UAE they do not give passport to anyone so issue of second class citizen does not arise. To be second class citizen one has to be citizen first. Therefore I do not agree with Yaya Khan.

Furthermore, in Kuwait even a woman who is first class natioanl of Kuwait cannot start business, So sorry to say, but its fact in most UAE countries laws are not human laws. I used term first class citizen for Kuwait as in Kuwait there are about nine types of passports and citizenship. One has to live is Kuwait for 50 yrs to get lowest category of passport. UAE is different from rest of world.

Dear Toronto_Boy

Lawyer can better advise if term âQualified Accountantâ is protected by law in Canada or no. So its better to leave it.

Khalid

Toronto_Boy · 01-23-2009, 05:54 AM

Dear Khalid

With due respect, I don't think anyone discussed whether ICAI(India) is good or bad here. Simply it is totally irrelevant for Pakistani students of accounting for career decision making and mostly for Pakistani accountants working in Pakistan or outside. Who cares what they are (i.e. ICAI India). There are many other and much better associations/ institutes on the globe than them from whom we can learn something.

Regards

mroneflower · 01-23-2009, 05:58 AM

Dear Toronto_Boy

I agree with you, I never said we should go for ICAI(India), but I heard on this fourm that CA from India are less competent than other accountant. I am just saying we should not make such statements.

I completely agree with you and we should not care about ICAI(India), how can I as being pakistani recommends ICAI(India) to someone, but we should also not hide facts. I hope you will get my point.

I hope this post will clear my point

Khalid

Toronto_Boy · 01-23-2009, 06:20 AM

Dear Khalid

I got your point, but you would also be agree with me that there are several facts in the world which are irrelevant in Pakistani perspective. No one is hiding those facts, but unnecessarily pointing out those irrelevant factors would simply confuse and may unnecessarily influence Pakistani students. I hope you get my point here.

Regards

Pracs · 01-23-2009, 07:35 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Toronto_Boy
 Dear rabia-k

You asked, âi have heard that ACCA's can also work in BIG 4's in USA. do we have to sit for any CPA exams??? any1 any 1 having any idea about this ???.â

Well, you have to understand first the difference between working in Big 4 as Staff Accountant or Audit Manager and signing off audit report, and preference given by employers in Big4, public accounting and industry. Just working as Staff Accountant/ Audit Manager and signing audit reports are two different things. In USA and Canada both, any one can work in Big4 as a part of audit team in capacity of Staff Accountant/ Audit Manager as a regular employee of the firm for rest of the life, but canât sign audited financials/ report unless he/she is a member of AICPA/ CICA/ CGA in respective jurisdictions. Any of graduate of accounting and other business degrees and other non-recognized members of other foreign accounting associations including CAs (of ICAP) and ACCAs can get the job in these capacities in Big4 or other public accounting firms as well as in industry. But, usually due to stern competition, un-awareness and non-recognition of foreign qualifications by employers and various other reasons, in both public accounting and industry, employers usually do not prefer less qualified, non-recognized, non-designated by local associations employees, first to hire and then to consider later for internal promotions. Therefore, to avoid these obstacles, employees consider achieving local designations through MRAs, exemptions, and even by starting over again from scratch in case of Pakistani designations.

Specifically speaking, ACCA can work in Big4 in USA, as I have explained in above para, but cannot sign audited financials/ report. Moreover, as far as I know, at-least State Board of Accounting of Colorado accepts ACCA for satisfaction of educational requirements for exams/ license both. There are some other requirements also. Please visit their website for other details. Further, a candidate for CPA exams would have to go to USA. Also, please search this forum for âCPAâ.

Last words for all. Neither my car is better than your car kind of discussion is taking readers specially students anywhere, nor repetition of same ideas in different words is serving any purpose. All qualifications are good and have their pros and cons. Life and circumstances are dynamic, and it is upto the individual how he uses his qualification in ever changing situations. There is no perfect solution available for all situations.

Regards

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just to add to Toronto boys post here I personally know Pakistani ACAs and Pakistani ACCAs (meaning trained in Pakistan) working in Big 4 accountancy firms in UAE, Saudi, Oman, Bahrain, Qatar, Australia, US, UK, Channel Islands, Luxembourg, Canada and ofcourse others in the industry in these countries and Jordan, South Africa etc. Pick up ICAP's member's directory and see the names of people in these countries plus another dozen, may be more. Similar is the case for ACCAs, it does not make a difference what qualification you have (in the long run) you have to make a mark on the world, your mark. One qualification may be preferred in a country for legal and historic reasons.

mroneflower · 01-23-2009, 07:47 AM

Dear Pracs

I agree with you, but in Pakistan this does not apply. In Pakistan first qualification brand is considered then experience and you have to accept this. Only becasuse of this reason you see in Pakistan number of qualification after one name, for example, Mr XYZ, ACA, ACA(ICAEW), CIMA, CFA, MBA etc. Unfortunately its fact in Pakistan. you have to agree with it. By no means I oppsoe your statement. i completely agree with you.

Dear Toronto_Boy

I got your point and will try not mention ICAI(India) ununnecessary.

Khalid

Pracs · 01-23-2009, 07:58 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kamranACA
 

Pracs,

I have all the regards for you and your achievements and nothing is to be taken as a reference for people like you who are quite professional and mature. However, I am contended to know that you have seen your ACCAs. This thread is quite reflective. I would love to see you whenever you would be on Pakistanâs visit. In the words of my respected brother Goodman (Mr. Zubair), it will be nice to enjoy a QULFI together.

Regards,

KAMRAN.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Kamran, I was dreading the moment you would pick up on my fellow ACCA (members or students)and send it in my directions ) I guess I would have done that too !.touche' I would like to say that these people are not a 'representative' sample of Pakistani ACCAs or Pakistani ACCA students. I have been on this forum for quite a few years and have seen atleast half a dozen such 'cases'; the last one's were ICAP students who had their own ethos and ideology (I am sure you remember then, don't want to name names)

I gladly take you up on your invitation for a kulfi and much more ! next time I am around in Pakistan and if I am not mistaken we are in the same city. That just reminds me,I believe Goodman owes me a certain 'Kebab' in East London

The interesting thing to note here is we haven't heard the view point of Pakistani based ACCAs ? I believe they have the right to discuss this.

Pracs · 01-23-2009, 08:09 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mroneflower
 Dear Pracs

I agree with you, but in Pakistan this does not apply. In Pakistan first qualification brand is considered then experience and you have to accept this. Only becasuse of this reason you see in Pakistan number of qualification after one name, for example, Mr XYZ, ACA, ACA(ICAEW), CIMA, CFA, MBA etc. Unfortunately its fact in Pakistan. you have you agree with it. By no means I oppsoe your statement. i completely agree with you.

Dear Toronto_Boy

I got your point and will try not mention ICAI(India) ununnecessary.

Khalid
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, as a nation we are 'qualification crazed' and that is true for some what other third world countries as well. That is because the competition is tough, more supply and less demand. In the long run I see skills and experience to be the most important factor (after a qualification). But because in the initial run brands are important in Pakistan (ICAP) as in other places UK (ICAEW) I advised in one of my earlier posts that if time and money permits, one should go for ICAP (with big4.

Just to point out ICAI (Ireland) is not a UK qualification, it is the national qualification of Republic of Ireland (and not Northern Ireland)
http//www.icai.ie/en/General/Contact-Us/

mroneflower · 01-23-2009, 08:14 AM

And Northern Ireland is part of UK. ICAI(Ireland) is Northern Ireland qualification, Plz check

ICAI(Ireland) is member of CCAB(UK). Just to clear the point.

ICAI is also member of CCAB Ireland group. ICAI calls itself UK and Irealnd based qualification. check it with ICAI. The link you provided also shows ICAI office address in Belfast. Belfast is in Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland in part of UK.

Click on link below and read para number 2, you will find ICAI is Irish and UK based qualification.Please do not misguide people.

http//www.icai.ie/en/General/About-Us/Chartered-Accountancy/Becoming-a-CA/International-/

For another proof that ICAI is Ireland and UK based qualification click on link below and find out CCAB and CCAB-1.

http//www.icai.ie/en/General/About-Us/CCABCCAB-I/

I do not know why ICAP members are doing so.

Finally in UK no one says ICAEW is superior brand. It only ICAP claim in Pakistan.

Pracs are you saying there is more supply of accountant in Pakistan where there are only 4000 ICAP members, 3000 ICMA members and only 700 ACCA members. I do not know on what ground u made this claim that demand of accountant is less than supply.

I think ICAP members think that less in number is good.

and what do u mean by Pakistani based ACCA all ACCA are equal.

Khaid

kamranACA · 01-23-2009, 06:09 PM

Pracs,

Thank you for taking up the invitation so sincerely. I am a Pakistani and all the cities of Pakistan are mine. I am too much into travelling as well, more specifically for professional reasons. Wherever you will be staying, you can find me there. Currently I am stationed at Karachi. During first week, or so, of February 2009, I would be on visit of Bahrain and UAE for almost 9-10 days. Just to inform you the schedule.

It was nothing to mention about the people like Pracs and goodman when I referred you something. I know your point of view and believe every qualification is good with certain exceptions and certain limitations. We (at my office) do have ACCA students and we don't make any difference when opportunities are given. The debate starts when some one portrays wrong information without an acceptable logic. It's my fault that I cannot accept illogical things. I agree in essence with your conclusion of personal capabilities which eventually pay off.

No one can take the burden of some other's ill behaviour. However, here a CA student tried it (although it was little bit other person's fault as well) and I tried to make the things better. He eventually proved to be good at heart and offered his apologies. Things came on right track. I am also thankful to Khalid for accepting his explanation and apologies. The persons you have referred have left the forum I guess, but, I still miss them. At least they were source of a continued activity on the forum which we are missing now-a-days.

Rabia,

I have no objection on your sticking up with a given concept. I wish you a nice future ahead. However, no reply came to my query and without having such a standing (within top 10 at least on their own footings) I cannot accept your version about ACCA regardless of the fact that I agree it has all the MRAs you or others point out. You can call me stubborn or rude or misguiding but you cannot prove the fact round the way. However, we can end up repeating same things by naming it as difference of opinions.

Khalid,

I am thankful to you for accepting Saifee's regrets. I am also bearing with you for next two years.

Regards,

KAMRAN.

kamranACA · 01-23-2009, 06:20 PM

Goodman,

Dear brother if you are having a look on this thread, please take care of Kebabs you have offered to Mr. Paracha. Such grouses are raising question on your QULFI offer as well.

Just kidding.

Regards,

KAMRAN.

rabia-k · 01-23-2009, 06:48 PM

mr kamran thanks for wishing. yes i will stick to the fact. the version is un acceptable to u so be it.

it will not make much of a difference to me or those several other students studying ACCA in the uae . besides i also want to say that here in the UAE, there are hardly any professional accountancy qualifications to study.ICAEW AND CIMA were just launched last yr.
ACCA is being offered for quiet a long time here .
indian CA is being offred for a long time but pakistani students will never go indian ca.
regards
rabia

mroneflower · 01-24-2009, 12:22 AM

Kamran question of big firms has already been answered. Kamran, its alright and I am also grateful to you for poiting out bad language of some members of this forum.

I must also say some members of this forum (who are students) providing wrong and misleading information to new students. This practice should also be stopped.

I also heard people saying ACCA students and member are degrading ICAP, no one is degrading ICAP.

Khalid