Seniors advice on current market situation

[toor]

i am in lahore .i was talking about difficulties i faced when i was ACCA finalist.Thanks to Allah that now m affiliate .i hope to get training contract now with any known firm. but mainly i m worried about my fellows who are left with 2 or 3 papers.and dnt have any option to start career.

[kamranACA]

Good to know Toor; Keep it up.

You will Inshallah find a good placement.



Regards,

[toor]

thanks kamran bhai

[Schuaeb]

Dears

Humble stipend levels had always been a source of frustration of CA trainees, and there were days not very far ago when stipend ranged from Rs. 1,500 to Rs. 2,500, the reasons were quite obvious and need not to be repeated here. Situation is comparatively better now. If anybody considers that training is taken as commercial activity from students perspective he surely is mistaken. However, there were students who had to meet their complete expenses out of their stipends, I wonder how they used to do.

According to my experience, no one on this forum or anywhere else ever expressed his concerns that increasing the stipend level may lead to the situation that is currently being faced by CA Inters struggling to get a training contract. No one should doubt that the increase in stipend become one of the reason for the current situation. However, unfortunately timing proved to be wrong, a thorough deterioration in market was experienced due to some unknown reason (not the global financial slump) after the step of increment in stipends by the Institute. Had market not gone that worse, only the increase in stipend rates won't have fetched current situation. So reason number one obviously is market situation, that got coupled by a humble increase so rigorously referred to as the prime cause by many. In addition to these two a third reason was there as well, lack of foresight and prudence in recruitment policies by some of the firms, owing to the growth in the magnitude of work load towards the mid of the previous decade and anticipating similar increase in future some firms recruited students idiotically, this can be confirmed by comparing the number of current trainee students with corresponding figures some years ago.

Training in industry may not be allowed in near future at least. In addition to the limitation of exposure a well-informed person on the issue was of the opinion that industry may not be having acceptance as well. Reasons; that why an employer will recruit a person to train him who will obviously quit at the time of payback (completion of training) and secondly allowing consistent exam leaves may not be easy as well.

Students obviously are facing real difficulties in finding firms but I will agree to the point made by Mr. Kamran that situtation exactly has not deteriorated that much. Still inductions are their and capacity is there. There used to be a time when small practices struggled to have students and now may be its time for them as well to have some CA Inter as well.

A point pertinent with the discussion here that why the Institute is not doing anything about the exploitation of students in the form of unregistered period that may extend unlimitedly. Many students are working as volunteer unregistered students (without any remuneration) for a period that may extend to one year or beyond (six months are quite common) in anticipation of having training contract. Sometimes they are not provided with exact dates when their registration will be entertained and at some other occasions, not very infrequent, such limits are not complied with.

Regards
Shoaib

[kamranACA]

We sometimes write without knowing what the other is saying and what circumstances the other is/was surrounded by.

A number of students and members of this forum write at my personal e-mailing address and I always try to reply each and every query, if I find enough time to do so. Some of the fellows do discuss certain things on phone as well. This stipend thing has been at length discussed by some members (one of them I still remember is named “Saad Anwer”) and I ought-rightly told them that what will happen in future. They know it was told beforehand.

The so-called “idiotic” excessive intake of students was basically due to lesser payout required at that time. People may not agree.

I am not supporting lesser stipends that were previously prevalent (although I feel stipends don’t count a lot) yet I believe students’ intake will sharply rise if stipends are sliced down. This is not going to happen so assumptions can produce varying results.


Regards,

[Dard]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, san" id="quote">quote<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kamranACA</i>
<br />
We sometimes write without knowing what the other is saying and what circumstances the other is/was surrounded by.

A number of students and members of this forum write at my personal e-mailing address and I always try to reply each and every query, if I find enough time to do so. Some of the fellows do discuss certain things on phone as well. This stipend thing has been at length discussed by some members (one of them I still remember is named “Saad Anwer”) and I ought-rightly told them that what will happen in future. They know it was told beforehand.

The so-called “idiotic” excessive intake of students was basically due to lesser payout required at that time. People may not agree.

I am not supporting lesser stipends that were previously prevalent (<b>although I feel stipends don’t count a lot</b>) yet I believe students’ intake will sharply rise if stipends are sliced down. This is not going to happen so assumptions can produce varying results.


Regards,

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Dear Kamran Bhai,
Stipend does count alot when the student belongs from a poor or middle-class family. It does count to students having financial difficulties. It does count when you work all day and at the end of the day all you get is spending money from your own pocket to survive
Professional development and training on one side, but stipend rate does matter at times

[kamranACA]

You must take keen interest in STIPEND and care for the maximum amount against your so-called "services"; I don't have any objection.

People at your stage don't even know what does training mean. I remember one of our old days fellow used to say, "the worth agood firm adds up to us (students) is of such an importance that even if the firm asks us (students) to pay for it, it will not be unjustified".

I know this may be an overstatement, but this is the way some others also think regardless of the financial position.

Let the time come, you will understand what I am saying; provided you learn to evaluate things positively.


Regards,

[Dard]

I already said in the last post, professional training and development set apart, some PpL do need stipends because of financial problems in this hyper-inflationary country

[kamranACA]

Dear

They should need salaries; not stipends. In very rare cases such people can afford to join a qualification that entails almost 18 to 20 years of their life. We know what limitations developing nations have.

In majority of cases people don't belong to those back grounds in a costly quest like ACCA (and also CA if cost of classes is taken to account).

I am not against the reasonable stipends; yet I believe it does not count for a CA student. A qualified CA with one to two years experience earns more than a hundred thousand (floor limit) local currency units and ranging from 2 lacs, 3 lacs, 5 lacs etc the experienced ones are even earning 2 to 3 (plus) million a month in terms of local currency units.

The people who know they have to become CA and possess such capability can understand that stipend does not count a lot. For me it never counted or mattered; although my father died before my passing of even first exam of CA.

Still, I agree mentalities do differ and materiality has different meanings for different classes of people. Some people are too much worried for such issues and certainly no one is affected by it. It's personal issue.

Regards,



Kamran.

[Schuaeb]

Not supporting less stipend rates and at the same time all the arguments are being provided to prove to the contrary! Not strange as it's not been seen for the first time. And advice well noted that trainees in addition to their 4 years 24/7 yet SO CALLED services should pay to the firms as the owe because beyond any doubt whatever they learn is due to the exposure they get from a firm. One of the benefits of such policy will be that the problem that caused this thread to be initiated will not be there anymore. Similar policies should be there for the graduates who go for their first job, as the experience they get sometimes may be more worthy than their salary. Medicine students should pay to the hospital for their house job, and MTOs to their respective organizations. The problem of unemployment in an economy undergoing recession can altogether eradicated by such means. The privileged members of our Institute have always got solution for every problem.

[kamranACA]

No one can provide remedy to a thing that is created with malfunctions or handicapped by nature itself.

The purpose is not to support reduction of stipends; rather is to explain why intake in firms has reduced significantly.

The "Imran Khans" could not so far provide remedy to a situation but have been since a time writing against the "members", "partners", "managers", "jabri mushaqat", so-called "24/7 services" may be because they are yet lingering behind in achieving this; which in others' case is making them to write like this.

May God help to understand others' views as well to the most experienced (much more than all the big names of profession since they use the words "isiotically" etc), reverend, efficient and premier analysts.

God help the generation to come!


Regards,

[kamranACA]

*idiotically.

Spelling mistake in previous post.

[Schuaeb]

These latest lines were asking for thorough retaliation however I have decided otherwise despite.....

I really enjoyed the comments (though such TAAN-O-TASHEEN was not anticipated) Really couldn't help laughing. These overall sounded as TOU KIA HAY! Yeah I need not a membership from any institute or certification from a large practice for myself to sound BIGGER. Neither any suffixes at the end of my name will make me more than what I am now. However, people may think differently and some of those who are not really confident of themselves find refuge in certifications and position they possess.

Surely the generation to come need a lot of help from God especially when their predecessors have left for them much repair work,and I hope they do not follow suit

[kamranACA]

Neither it was desired nor was it the intent to indulge in such discussion with any one. Rather, I have been avoiding to do so after MATHAA MAARI with an un-informed confident on CMAs subject. We know it could have been and can be avoided in future as well, provided every one (including myself) learns how to define boundries and limit ourselves in it; and it’s good to see such a move though really not a "perfect" endeavor.

Some logical and quite impersonal questions/thoughts have arisen (keeping myself on other side of the table) that I would like asking/sharing from/with myself; so no offense please

...........If we were not hovering for certifications, then why we lost (roughly) half a decade in longing for it? Why we did not declare ourselves as “needless to qualify” on the very onset? In other words, as it is the final outcome of the (again roughly) 16-20 years’ quest, then why we lost two decades in longing for it. Is it not unfaithful-ness with our ownselves? Kis Ko Dhoka day rahay hain bhaai jee (myself)? Khud ko? ............


Ohh yes, one thing just flashed into memory, somewhere I read the meaning of “DOCTOR QUACK”; It is interesting to see their confidence as well since they as well don’t use suffixes but are most confident and insightful persons in our society and are equally the DOCTORS.

Nothing better can be hoped for the generations to come if Dr. Quacks are taken to be the insightfuls by the nation.

I hope it is not demanding "severe retaliation" since these are only the thoughts shared with myself (after reading thoughtful posts) without calling any one into question specifically.

Regards,

[tanveer_ahmed]

buddy still u r serching for a firm, just go through the icap site where trainees vacancies are available and i must say just join the firm no matter its a small or big, once u qualified u will get good jobs but u have to struggle for two to three year and afterward no one ask your firm name.Iam also a C.A intermediate and working with small firm.