Abb ACCA k Bad log CA ko monh Nahien Lagaengae.

[khani]

I have a thinking that after the introduction of ICAEW in Pakistan for CA and ACCA qualified syudents, no ACCA member will think of doing CA from ICAP.Because getting ACA from ICAEW is many many times better than becoming CA from ICAp.What u people think?

[4thelement]

Dear Khani

its not like that
after the introduction of ICAEW ACCA students will definately be in better position than they were before but ICAP will always be the prevailing body, it will remain the most superior body in Pakistan and all the employers will prefer ICAP members because local accountancy bodies always prevails and once u becomes an ICAEW member than u can be an ICAP member after Passing two more papers so instead of using so abusive language u shud concentrate on obtaining membership of three accountancy bodies (ACCA ICAP ICAEW)

other members shud also contribute specially senior members like Kamran bhai, schuaeb, astute accountant, amir and Yaseen acca

regards

[kamranACA]

Dear,

ICAEW produces chartered accountants like ICAP and has started its training and education in Pakistan under an MOU signed with ICAP. None of those who are charged with governance of these issues are so innocent that we conclude they might have not thought every thing about the pros and cons.

Yes, ICAEW is one of the most prestigious institute worldwide and enjoys so many merits over the other institutes.

However, as 4thelement explained, if some one wishes to have the charter at Pakistan he/she HAS TO come through the channel of ICAP. There is no other way out. Even ICAEW members have to qualify exams if they wish to be in practice at Pakistan.

Notwithstanding the above, ICAEW is of course one of the best institutes in the world. I have no doubt about it and if some one does not have an intent to be in practice at Pakistan he can enjoy equal market oppurtunities in other sectors.

As far as doing CA from ICAP and ICAEW, is concerned the tuition fees payable to the authorized tutors in Pakistan for the final stage papers are enormous and, coupled with the material expnses incurred on ACCA, may not be acceptable for every student on Pakistan.

As per my info the minimum fee being asked by such authorized tutors is approximately more than Rupees 200,000 for only those few papers which ACA or ACCA have to qualify.

Yes, there could be a huge number who can affoard it as well.

It would be a matter of choice and selection among various trade offs.

As far as the comments of Khani are concerned, these could be a reaction of some ultimate outcome of doing ACCA in Pakistan. However, I don't expect such things from him being a serious and sincere student / professional.


Best regards,



KAMRAN.

[accountingunlimited]

Hi Everybody,
As far as the topic is concerned, I will not support it fully because people have different objectives and frame of minds. The scope of accountancy professionals is expanding day by day. Now everyone does not care about going into practice. However those who want to practice, they have to be a member of ICAP which is very fair. On the other hand those who want to join consultancy either with audit firms or independently may not prefer to be a member of ICAP.
Already ACCA has taken away big chunk of accountancy students from ICAP but it does not effect it because most of ACCA students are working in Audit firms even on lower stipend as compare to CA students by their own choice so in future they can capitalise it for ICAP's membership.
Similiarly, there is a requirement of ICAEW of work experience/Internship, again CA firms are the first available option. So as far as membership is concerned, yes ICAP will suffer but as far as business of CA firms is concerned it will be booming because those ACCA students who are not working in CA firms, will also take interest in working for them so they can meet the criteria of ICAEW for membership after qualifying.
ICAP will be meeting its objectives directly/indirectly.However in industry, the members of ICAP may face tough competition on remuneration terms because ACCA and ICAEW members (I am talking about a person who is a member of both of these bodies) who have done their training in CA firms will be at par in Finance, Audit, Merger and Acquisition etc with the exception of specialised nature of job of Tax or Corporate Secretary.
In my personal opinion ACCA will be the one who will be affected most in long run, unless its members/students take decision to join either ICAP or ICAEW.
You know who will benefit most out of it in monetary terms?
Education Providers
How?
By offering routes like 'Become ACA(Pak)+ACA(UK)+ACCA in just .... years for ....... amount'.
So be careful and don't get carried away.
Many Thanks
Kind Regards

[kamranACA]

Dear AccountingUnlimited,


You have rightly analyzed the situation. The major loser will be ACCA in its own instead of ICAP. Earlier it was facing ICAP's CAs and now it will face CAs of two institutes.

ICAP members may not lose so much for two reasons. Firstly, there are only 3 thousand plus working CAs of ICAP in Pakistan. Whereas, the requirement for such qualified persons is enormous and it will take much amount of time to saturate the situation. Secondly, so many (among the younG fellows) CAs of ICAP will also be competing CA of ICAEW and the resulting mix of ICAEW qualified will not be imbalanced at all. There would not be a competition among ACA from ICAEW and ACA from ICAP. Rather in most of the cases, there would be a competition among those who would be ACA from ICAP and those who would have dual qualification both from ICAP and ICAEW.

What I look in future, again the least benefited in such competition would be ACCAs.

Further, the experienced / senior fellows of ICAP will have no impact as they are already well positioned that cannot easily be affected.

Yes, ACCAs with ICAEW's CA will really improve their demand but they would not be at some advantage against a professional who would be ICAP's member and ICAEW's member simultaneously. You know the local charter has to take the advantage in so many oppurtunities. This has been happening and this has to happen.

Therefore, the benefits, the ICAP members will get, are far more than the losses, if any, supposed to be susained in any professional terms.


Best regards,



KAMRAN.

[nakaiun]

if one is acca qulified how many exemption will icaew give to it

[nakaiun]

there is so much competition in the market so acca qulified man what to do inorder to gain advantages over other quluifications

[4thelement]

well initially i thought kamran bhai wud provide some beneficial information over here but finally he showed that he is an ICAP member who cannot or do not want to see any other body superior to it(monoply guyz). Well as far as acca is concerned i wud again say that all acca members shud make a decision earlier in their careers either they have to work for public practice or to work in other industry oriented roles, this will help them in achieving their goalz because these ICAP guyz will never let us getting an edge over them and its true that with the intro of ICAEW in Pakistan ACCA members will suffer alot unless they goes for ICAP or both(icap n icaew) membership as far as public practice is concerned, industry oriented roles wud remain same and the worth wud be same for all bodies (CIMA, ACCA, ACA, etc.)
but i want to give an advice to all ACCA students who are willing to pursue their careers in public practice to go for ICAEW and them ICAP membership or after qualifyin as an ICAEW leave Pakistan and find a better role in public practice in other countries.

regards

[4thelement]

to Nakaiun

acca affiliates will have to pass 3 exams and have to work for 2 or 3 yrs in ICAEW registered audit firm to be an icaew member

[nakaiun]

4theelement what do u mean by public and industry oriented ? if i work in audit firm like big 4 it is public or industry

[accountingunlimited]

Hi
Dear Nakaiun if you work in Big 4 you are in public practice and if you are doing a job in any company, bank etc you are in industry.
As far as exemption for ACCA members is concerned, they have to appear in 2 papers and a case study. This is possible only if they have taken Advanced Taxation in the optional paper of finals. Otherwise they have to appear in Tax as well, totaling the number of papers to 3 + 1 case study. One more thing, a person will not be allowed to appear in case study unless he is in final year of his training.
Now the point raised by 4thelement regarding public practice in other countries, same principal applies, if you have studied in UK variant, Hong Kong Variant etc you will not be allowed to practice in those countries. So ACCA students if you have any plan to move to UK after qualifying ACCA and ICAEW you better
1)study in UK variant of ACCA and
2)find internship in the firm/company which has offices both in UK and Pakistan and it is also approved trainer of both ACCA and ICAEW.
As far as monopoly factor is concerned by some forum members, I would like to say that things take time to settle down, ACCA is approximately 10 years old in Pakistan, competing with nearly 50 years old ICAP. The progress which ACCA has made till now in not bad at all. Same was the situation with IBA in past but then LUMS came in, now CBM. Now graduates of these MBA providers are accepted like of IBA.
So give some more time to ACCA and as a student give your best because if you are working in a same audit firm on same clients, following same methodology you can develop same professional standard and can get good recognition.
Many Thanks
Kind Regards

[kamranACA]

Dears,

I agree to what accountingunlimited has said. Similar training oppurtunities can make a professional acceptable for the industry but the gap of 10 years against 50 years has to remain as it is becoz after further 50 years, this gap would be of 60 against 100. This cannot be ignored.

As far as jobs are concerned still ACCAs are finding jobs in Pakistan. My point has always been to explain that there is difference in the level of such jobs when compared with CAs and if somebody ha sto make a good effort then why not should he make the effort for the best. This difference is a fact and there is little point for any one to debate on the ground reality. Factors have been discussed in above post with which I agree.

Dear 4thelement,

My brother I have to occupy only one job that I am doing and I have no current plans to move. I have no grouse on any other professional and have no monoplistic issues with any other qualification or professional as no one is going to affect me even if I don't go for ICAEW's CA. I just explained what I felt true and fair regarding the future positioning of CAs and others in response to what has been asked from me. If on speaking the truth you conclude that my approach is monoplistic then I cannot do anything for you.

You know same conclusion was given by others and even by you. More specifically where you advised others to leave Pakistan.

My question is, if I am not much affected even if I don't go for ICAEW's membership (I can go for it, it's merely a matter of choice but not a limitation), then why my friends doing ACCA feel that they would be much affected unless they get ICAEW's membership or else. This very feeling embedded in your minds is a driving force for people like me to stregthen their ideas further, which have been expressed. Why ACCAs feel theirselves all alone in the world without getting CA qualifications.

Please don't feel hurt. This is a truth. Most of ACCAs feel that they will find a place only when they will get CA qualification as well. If this is a reality then why not to do CA straightforwardly. This is the focus area.

Yes, in my view it is good to have more qualifications. But this should not be caused merely by the reason that one's qualification is not supposed to make him capable to compete in the market. I am not discussing here that how much efficient some body could be and how much could be the personal capabilities. I am talking about career oppurtunities. For raising one's profile this could be a good option but if it is to be done for having a place in the market, then why don't we do at the outset which can lead to a better result.

I feel you will not get my point. But I hope for this to be understood by the readers.

I have all the regards and best wishes for you and in fact whatever I say is to make you people to have a right choice. If some one feels that what I say is incorrect, he/she is always there to make his/her own choice. Can I change any body's final decisions. However, yes, I can say what I feel true and I will keep on doing so.

Don't mind my words. You all are like my brothers.


Best regards,



KAMRAN.

[Muhammad Amir]

After visiting this forum and after having some exchange of views with other ACCA students, Affiliates and Members, i have analysed following facts.

1)ACCA ki most population "EHSAS-E-KAMTARI" ka shikar hay.

2)They(ACCA students and affiliates) are too much concerned in the exemptions of other institutes like ICAP,ICAEW and so many other institutes and left their own professional development.

3)So sleepy local ACCA management is doing nothing for professional development of current ACCA members and Affiliates.

4)Very slow promotion of ACCA in employers' market and bad publicity earned by some students also affected it in negative way.

5)ICAP's prejudiced policies made things worse for ACCA.

6)Very narrow thinking of ACCA Affiliates and Members which starts from BIG 4 and ends in Audit Practice License.

7)Most of the ACCA population is over concerned in international opportunities despite of the fact that they can even settle better here in pakistan.

8)Most of the ACCA students think that ICAP is something unreachable destiny(without having explored the past papers like module E's Advanced Accounting And Financial Reporting Paper, what a third class paper, it is equal to F7 level of ACCA similarly the module F's paper BFD[Business Finance Decisions] a paper with the similar level of ACCA F9).

9)Resistance faced by ACCA trainees in audit firms especially in Big 4(Except Ford Rhodes).

10)An ever time fear in their mind that they are pursuing and working hard for something that is of somewhere near second tier.

Regards,

Muhammad Amir

[kamranACA]

Dears,

Amir is one of them who have selected ACCA as profession of their own choice, as he has pointed out in earier posts. For standing on his decision, he is appreciable. I hope and wish every success for him in life.

The above analysis given by him, is materially correct with some of my reservations on point 5 and 8.

ACCA students should get hold of the concept given by Amir.


Let's hope a better future for ACCA in Pakistan.


Regards,



KAMRAN.

[Muhammad Amir]

Dear Mr KamranACA,

I was anticipating your disagreement with me on point 5, 8 and 9.

For point 5 i do not need to say anything, as this is the reality that everyone can see.

For point 8 i will say that past papers of ACCA and ICAP are available in their websites if you have some time then you can visit those urls, download past papers and analyse the difference. This is something observed by me recently, i did winter(December) 2006 question on Consolidation(GIF,JPG,BMP on piecemeal acquisition and disposal of an entity) of module 'E' and i was shocked by the level of this paper.

Similarly when i was in F9 in last attempt i have done most of the past papers of BFD and found nothing more than what we learned in class except some topics like risk management especially interest rate risk, which was having some more complexity as compared to F9's risk management.

Past Papers of both bodies are available on.

http//www.icap.org.pk/Examination/PAST_PPR.htm

http//www.accaglobal.com/students/study_exams/qualifications/acca_choose/acca/

I hope your disagreement on point 8 has been diluted.

Regards,

Muhammad Amir